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Posted By Iorek on 08/14/2007 10:05 AM
~Sigh~

I guess I HAVE to start a "Claws of Lorek" army now.  Dammit.

You might want to use this for the rules...  

Posted By Toreador on 08/14/2007 8:37 AM
Chaos was one of the large deciding factors in a lot of people dumping 40k around here, so I don't see the old codex being used around here at all.

I'm just curious... Where is "here" - GW HQ?

Posted By Delephont on 08/14/2007 2:32 AM

It is soul destroying to spend time and effort creating and army only to have the company that sold said army to you, to abandon you and crap over your efforts.

I wholeheartedly agree. That really was the final nail in the coffin for me a few years ago with WH Fantasy. I played mostly Chaos and Undead, although I had just about all the other armies as well. I read the Chaos rulebook then decided which models I was going to have in my army. This was the version that allowed you to have Minotaurs, Dragon Ogres, Warriors, Beastmen, etc., in your army before they came out with the Chaos rulebook that made you have a Character and his personal retinue. Anyway, I bought the figures for my army, converted and painted them, and this was the army that I played frequently with. Then they come out with the Retinue rulebook. My army was still viable, but I had to adjust some things a bit. Then they come out with yet another Chaos rulebook that seperated everything into mortal, beastmen, and demon armies. Okay, well, my army was made up of half mortals and half beastmen, so I either had to make up two new armies or sell one and go with the other. I ended up getting rid of the mortals and going with the Beastmen, which meant more painting and converting, then they turn around and come out with a new edition of Warhammer that (6th edition, I believe) that made all my rulebooks and armies incompatible with it. So I said screw it, and went with 40K.

I got into 40k when it was the 3rd edition. I chose Chaos to start with. I started with an undivided legion, but then when the next Chaos Codex came out (the one that just got replaced with this apparent piece of crap) I chose to start a Khornate army. I heavily converted this army. All my berserkers had axes instead of swords. I combined Berserker bodies with Bloodletter and Fleshhound parts to make a unit of Khorne possessed. I had characters in Khornate Terminator armor, riding Juggernauts, equipped with wings, etc. I converted the Demon Prince model to have a massive Glave. I spent at least $100 converting a Dreadnought to have all sorts of skulls, spikes, Khornate icons, a Bloodthirster's axe in one hand and its whip in another, etc. My Land Raider was converted in a similar fashion. This was my most extensive conversion and painting project to date. I did all this because the rules fit the fluff.

Under this new rulebook, I wouldn't even think about going to all that trouble. Why? Because the models would be World Eaters/Khorne Berserkers in name only. And that's what I think some people posting here don't truly understand. Sure, I could play 40k with some red painted models that are called Berserkers on the package, but they aren't really true berserkers like they were in the last codex. What's the point of going through the trouble of modeling all your models with axes to go along with the rules/fluff when now there is really no benefit of them having axes over a chainsword? Is there any mention of Berserkers having the Khornate axes in this new codex? And some will say that the Demon Prince with the Glave is still viable, it just has to treat the Glave as a normal weapon. But that's not the point. If I just wanted a normal weapon, I would have just left the Demon Prince with the sword it came with. I modeled the Glave on the model because I wanted it to have the Glave. Now, all that time converting my army to have weapon choices that were allowed by the rules is just wasted. 

Someone mentioned something about Tzeentch sorcerors having to remove their powerfists because they are no longer allowed to have them now. Now this is a real pain in the you know what for all those that require WYSIWYG. That means you have to either buy a new model(s) without a powerfist or break off the PF from the model and replace it with a new arm with a force weapon, thus requiring one to mess up the paint job on the old model and such. This is just nonsense.

Same thing with the Obliterators going from T5 (Oh, we made a mistake) to T4(5). I bought the Oblits because they were T5 originally. I wouldn't have bought them if they were T4(5) in the first printing of the codex because 70 pts wasn't worth spending on 1 model that could be killed with Str 8 and 9 wpns. Oblits were viable because there isn't that many S10 weapons floating around. Now the Oblits are no longer viable. And plus, now they have less weapons and cost more? Ridiculous. So again, money wasted on useless models because GW decides to change the rules. I don't know about everyone else, but I simply don't have the money to keep buying rulebook after rulebook and having to change my army each time a new one comes out. I didn't get into this game to play in tournaments, but that seems what the focus of GW is about now: making rulebooks that make better tournaments instead of a better game. I got into this game because it used to be fun, before GW starting getting greedy and pulling crap like this. It's just not the same game anymore.

H.B.M.C. thank you for writing a very good review and I do love the wit you inserted into the review itself is worth the long read. I agree with many of the points you said and the way I see this there are basically three types of people who a) love the codex for the de-cusomization or b) hate the codex for ripping out the character and c) furious that x amount of dollars in models are worthless or unviable.

I fall into catagory C with a Lost and the Damned army that is nolonger legal in tournament play and had +50 models that were specifically converted as Nurgle mutants along with my 10 Furies that have no place now. I know many others who have Lost and the Damned armies and for one of the gamers, that was his only army and now $500 dollars of models are now unviable.

What I dont get about the chaos codex is while Arhiman was looking for the black library and apparently I guess found the instruction manual for his staff, and I guess he sent the PDF to the other sorcerers but its also funny how the renegade marines seemingly ditched their assault cannons, razorbacks, landraider crusaders, landspeeders, thunderhammers, and whirlwinds and I guess dropped them in the trash bin for some orks to loot.

‘Traitor Legions and Renegade Chapters’

Sounds like a really bad 60s pop group.

I'll throw my two cents in as well...

First off - HBMC Nice review - i can see you put a lot of time and effort into it. I may disagree with you, but I respect your efforts.

I'm gonna place myself cleanly in the Scuddman and Yakface camp. While I still haven't read it myself - I like the sound of the new codex.

I don't think there need to be rules simply for rules' sake. I like nice clean rules sets - with as few "special cases" as possible myself. Because - as YMDC shows - the moment special cases get involved, things start to get weird.

***
To me - most of the complaints about the new chaos codex can be divided into 3 groups. (These comments are not aimed at anyone in particular).

One - I lost my distinct demons.
True, but here is another question. I heard COUNTLESS complaints that one demon was better than the others (bloodletters anyone?). All sorts of people wanted the demons to be internally balanced. Because why should one "warp spawned creation" be radically better than others?

Well - you get what you ask for.... The Lesser demons are now internally consistent. Congrats...

Two - I lost "unit x", "option y", or "spiffy special power z"
Yes. And you didn't think it was going to happen because???
No GW Codex *ever* has been identical to it's predecessor. Every codex attempts to correct apparent problem with it's predecessor. Chaos was long seen by virtually everyone as one of the "heavy hitters" with a monstrous number of options that could combine synergistically to create some 1) terribly powerful, 2) terribily unfun to play against, and 3) just plain terrible lists. You had to know the hammer was coming...

Change happens. Especially in GW games. Suck it up and move on.

Three - I lost my Legion special rules.
Yep, you did. Even though* that* specific set of game mechanics to represent your faction only came into existence in the 3.5 codex. Even though you can build armies, that are for the most part, similar to your previous ones (minus some of the special rules/special weapons/etc you had previously). But, have the Legions suddenly ceased to exist in the 40k verse (like the squats)? No - they are still there.

Game Mechanics do NOT equal the sum existance of an army. An army is the miniatures, the fluff, the legends of army built in to the 40k universe, their colors, their victories and defeats... Any army should be more than the handful of rules that represent it on the tabletop. The loss of a handful of funky game mechanics that differentiated your army slightly from the REST of your faction is not enough to destroy it.

Towards the end of the 3rd edition, the Devs seemed to believe that every little bit of background and fluff required that the army have a special rule to represent it. Did the Alpha Legion's Infiltrate rule REALLY represent the nature of the Legion?

Yes - the Alpha Legion may be master spies and infiltrators; but that was on the 'macro' 40k scale. At the battlefield level with battle gear, the Alpha Legion probably shouldn't be any sneakier than ANYONE in power armor (ie not very - I hate power armored loyalist SM getting infiltrate too). And for thhe other Legions, the free aspiring champions for sacred number sized squads was a game mechanic - nothing more.

My buddy's Death Guard is still Death Guard - still following Papa Nurgle. Just 'cause he lost some truly artifical limitations (heavy weapon havocs), the free aspiring champs, and a couple special rules doesn't mean that his army is suddenly gone. Change ? Yes. Gone? Nope - when those plague marines march up the board, shrugging off bolter fire and chanting "Nur-gle! Nur-gle!" with every stomp of their rusting decayed armor, they look like Death Guard to me...

To those people who feel that they have lost too much - I'm sorry. I don't agree with you though.

While I agree with the majority of your review, I'd like to add a  couple of additional points/observations.

First, one small accuracy correction.  The terminator lord shown in the color section with the Purge is not a conversion of Lysander.  He's from the new plastic terminator lord kit.  He does have a similar walking/leaning pose, however.

I agree with all of the points re: the blandness of the codex.  It's disigenous to make claims (as some have) that the codex couldn't include legion specific options and remained balanced.  It's no less a possibility than the concept of balancing codex vs codex, army vs army.  There's no reason they could not have included a few more options that differentiate the chaos powers and balance them. 

But this gets to my big gripe.  I really dislike how very little of the rules actually reflect the established fluff.  There is SCORES of fluff on chaos out there, and the new rules look like a pale imitation of that fluff.

Second, I have a real issue with the amount and focus of the fluff in this book.  For many gamers, this codex may be the first time they are exposed to the chaos powers.  It should have had more fluff overall.  For many legion players that were not in the big five (Emeperor's Children, Death Guard, World Eaters, 1000 Sons, Black legion), it would have been nice to see a little more recognition and throw them a bone.  Even if they don't specific rules, a showcase would be nice.  A little half page with the color scheme and notable history.  At least regular space marines got that.  First founding legions/chapters deserve a little more love.  Some fluff, maybe a few special rules (such as the traits for regular marines.  Not great, but better than being completely ignored).  For a great comparison, look at the amount of fluff, as well as the look and feel found within the fantasy chaos army books.  It's a WORLD OF DIFFERENCE.

That said, I really did like the additional fluff on renegade legions.  it was a long time coming and it was good treatment.  I just wanted it IN ADDITION to the traitor legions fluff, not in place of it.

I liked the review's reference to Realms of Chaos.  Talk about a change in approach.  You had two Realms of Chaos books, each around 300 pages long.  That's 600 pages of books oozing with artwork, stories, background fluff, rules, army lists, etc.  Back in the day, the rulebooks were also the fluff books.  They were one and the same.  Now you have to buy some Black library books to go along with your chaos codex to get your fix.  And that just doesn't seem right.  I'm not knocking Black Libary- I own more Fluff and art books than ANYONE I know.  I just think more of that great background material deserves to be in the army book/codex.  I also think that the rules for how units, models, army lists, and game mechanics work should reflect the fluff better.  (Heck, I'd like to see armies of 10 Grey knight terminators that could take on a million critters- it would be cool, and fluffy).

It's offensive that GW has spent so much time creating a detailed world and then ignores its basic tenets in the army lists.  Khorne Berzerkers should actually have Khornish chainaxes, that modify saves and kill people easier.  It's been that way in the fluff and the rules since 1991, at the least.  Night Lords should have access to more squads of Raptors than anyone else.  It's what they do; they aren't just dark blue marines with the same access to raptors as everyone else.  They just aren't.  Death Guard should have True Grit.  True Grit was originally invented for Death Guard, fo crying out loud! There are plenty of examples of this.  They could have shown a little love for the founding traitor legions and given them a trait to reflect their differences.  No need for TONS of special rules.  But they don't even get a fluff section describing them; that's lame.

It's crazy to remove all association with specific daemon types from space marine armies.  You could almost justify it for cultists- but not for the most elite and dedicated fighters that work for chaos.  Adjust their point costs, change summoning (which they did), adjust some of the abilities. But don't make them all the same.  It turns its back on 25 years of background material regarding daemons.

It's a shocking difference to look at the earlier fluff and the current codex.  Worlds apart.

You can throw my towel into Yak's corner too. There are also several vets ("Ohio Players" as Blackmoor called us) that are fine with this codex. Simplified and straightforward.

I fall on the opposite side of Yak, they should strive to make the other list competative by upping their choices and effectivness. Instead they do the opposite shackling a good list to match the special needs ones they have. It is the lazy way out, but then again look who we are talking about.

Posted By Polonius on 08/14/2007 9:48 AM

Posted By malfred on 08/14/2007 9:41 AM
They vape entire threads?

Unless it's a direct attack on them, that's just weird.

Well, in one of them I was defending HBMC's deconstruction, and Dakka as a whole.  I pointed out that while constant screaming cynicism gets old sometimes, Warseers howler monkey policy of screaming "cheese" or "hater" at anybody who either enjoys playing to win, or who has a complaint about GW.

It's a great board with plenty of activity, they just really drank the GW Kool Aid, and close down threads that get even slightly nasty.

Unlike Dakka, where the average thread feels like the Tupac/Biggie feud.

Good stuff here!

Too long to sig though...

 

"Howler Monkey Policy" indeed!

I just read the previous poster and wanted to make a response to a specific comment.

You just made the point (as have others) that change is to be expected from one codex to another.  And I agree that we shoudl expect some change.  My objection, however, is the lack of consitancy.  I'll give you an example.

If one plays Ultrmarines, or generic space marines, there have been changes from codex to codex.  But the underlying principles of the army construction don't actually change.  Fluff meets rules consistantly for the boys in blue.  You can reasonablly expect 5-10 man units, one assault weapon, one heavy weapon.  You can expect that tactical squads are your backbone.  You can expect scouts, terminators, land raiders, rhinos, etc.  All of these elements that make up a generic space marine army circa 1995 are true in 2000 and true in 2007.  They'll most likely always be similar.

But GW pulled the rug out from people with chaos.  There are complete army lists and builds that are impossible under the new dex.  I'm not saying that ALL of these builds were cool, or even inherantly fair/balanced. Thre's no reason these fluffy, weird lists couldn't have been balanced when intially presented to gamers years and years ago. I'm only saying that they were presented as legitimate and legal armies under previous editions and they no longer exist.   There's something that feels unfair about that, that Chaos players can't reasonably expect that their armies look and behave vaguely similar from codex to codex, much like Space Marine players, or Guard players can/have.

Previously, I once had an idea for a choas army that featured 18 claanesh chosen with daemonettes.  The chosen all had daemonic speed or flight, with rending claws or power weapons, in three fluffy squads of 6.  Each was going to be a woman with a long slaaneshy serpent tail.  Half of the squad would have the old slaanesh crab claws.  Half would have power weapons and pistols.  A third would have doom sirens.  The troops would be all daemonettes and daemonettes on steeds.  I would also include a Keeper of Secrets.  it would have been a beautifully converted and painted army, as well as insanely expensive.  Definately cheesy and harsh, but I respect anyone that would grow through the trouble of painting and building an army like that.  It would be a pelasure to get my ass handed to me because it would be so much fun to play.  While extreme, that army was COMPLETELY legal under the previous codex.  It was also extremely fluffy.  And it would be nearly a thousand dollars thrown down the drain, solely because Chaos can't reasonably expect any sort of consistency from edition to edtion; certainly not the same level that the other imperial armies have.

It's the breaking with their own fluff and internal consistancy that bugs me so much. 

Posted By thehod on 08/14/2007 10:31 AM
What I dont get about the chaos codex is while Arhiman was looking for the black library and apparently I guess found the instruction manual for his staff, and I guess he sent the PDF to the other sorcerers but its also funny how the renegade marines seemingly ditched their assault cannons, razorbacks, landraider crusaders, landspeeders, thunderhammers, and whirlwinds and I guess dropped them in the trash bin for some orks to loot.

I find that interesting also. And what happened to all those Basilisks the IW used to have? Did the Imperial Guard reposses them because the IWs weren't making the lease payments?

Holy overblown responses!!!

Thoughtpolice?
Soul destroying, abandonment, and "crap over your efforts"??

Not to put too fine a point on it, but hyperbole like this is why no one takes internet comments seriously.  I know the "it" thing for folks my age and younger is to pretend the vastly generous and fairly easy lifestyle we have is really a huge burden and we are oppressed...but let's not get ridiculous (too late).

No one knows how it plays because no one has played it. GW has recommended, every Games Day ever held, that players treat this thing like a buffet...take what you like, leave the rest, homebrew rules. It's a business.

Business, business, business. This is why fanboys are the most laughed at species of nerd on the planet...they treat business decisions as personal insults.

As for complaining over Daemons...they are getting their own Codex next year (ostensibly). Cry me a river with your new plastic daemons and own ruleset (which will probably be bland like this one).

People whined about having too many options in 2002. Now they are whining about not enough. Welcome to the internet. Long may she reign.

+1 on what Chuck said

Well, clearly those bassies can be the basis for the new renegade army--using IG rules of course.

And those demons? Why, just pick up one of these GF9 trays (movement trays for figs with round bases) and now you can start that Fantasy Battle Chaos army you've always wanted. Brilliant!

See? All better now.

With such a tremendous outcry I'm sure GW will do something.. maybe they'll do a PDF for rules for some of the old legions? Or stick em in that demon book that no one should hold their breath waiting for?

First off, I'm honored that i've even been considered for a sig.

Secondly, the thing you have to remember about internet hyperbole is that all we have are words. No intonation, no facial expression, so gestures. Just the words that we right. So, while it's silly on the surface to write "this new codex destroyed my army and makes me feel like GW punched me in the stomach," it's more effective than writing, "man, this is annoying and I feel inconvenienced and mildly put out."

Couple that with the fact that the reason we're not playing with the new codex is because GW keeps them locked in boxes, slipping a few here and there for over a month before the average gamer can get his hands on it. The goal is to create buzz, but buzz is a double edged sword. Vets can't always see the good stuff, they hear the bad and can't spend a few hours with the book to dig out the good. In a few months, people will be happy again.

As for Warseer, I really enjoy posting there. While the noise ratio is high, there's simply more content than anywhere else, and when I have time, it's fun to wade hip deep into it to find a few cool nuggets.

Posted By dienekes96 on 08/14/2007 11:08 AM

No one knows how it plays because no one has played it.

W40K is a simple enough game that anybody with basic high school math skills can easily figure out how any army plays just by reading the codex.

Posted By dienekes96 on 08/14/2007 11:08 AM

Holy overblown responses!!!

Thoughtpolice?
Soul destroying, abandonment, and "crap over your efforts"??

Not to put too fine a point on it, but hyperbole like this is why no one takes internet comments seriously.  I know the "it" thing for folks my age and younger is to pretend the vastly generous and fairly easy lifestyle we have is really a huge burden and we are oppressed...but let's not get ridiculous (too late).

No one knows how it plays because no one has played it. GW has recommended, every Games Day ever held, that players treat this thing like a buffet...take what you like, leave the rest, homebrew rules. It's a business.

Business, business, business. This is why fanboys are the most laughed at species of nerd on the planet...they treat business decisions as personal insults.

As for complaining over Daemons...they are getting their own Codex next year (ostensibly). Cry me a river with your new plastic daemons and own ruleset (which will probably be bland like this one).

People whined about having too many options in 2002. Now they are whining about not enough. Welcome to the internet. Long may she reign.

To some degree this is true! But.....your statement forgets a few home truths! While fanboys may be laughable, no one likes wasting money buying figures only to find that your "investment" in your priviliged lifestyle equates to zip. If you take your time you could spend hours on 1 miniature!! Now, you've just completed a 2000pt army and 30% - 60% of your army ( depending on the choices you make ) is nolonger viable.....woe to all those who created a squat army back in the day!

I agree with you as far as people complaining for the sake of it, and moaning about change! But we're talking about GW...these boys certainly don't belive in a free lunch, you pay for your hobbying with GW in hard earn bucks!! Everytime they have a brain fart it hurts someone ( mostly every gamer ) in the second worst area...the wallet!!

Now your other point.....about doing your own thing....well, yeah, of course you can...but then as time passes and you keep doing your own thing, eventually you'll be doing something but it won't be WH40K. So it seems to me that you've turned your back on GW anyway for exactly the reason as everyone else....CAUSE YOU CAN'T AFFORD IT!!

That seems to be the attitude of GW. ?Hey, we know you bought 9 Obliterators and 3 Basilisks for your Iron Warriors army, and that cost you $300, but you can?t use most of that anymore. Suck it up and move on.? No wonder I haven?t felt the desire to buy any of their products in a long time. Do you have unlimited resources to buy stuff that you can?t use any longer? I don?t.



Rules, to me, are simply playable translations of the fluff. If, for example, Iron Warriors fluff describes them as being good at seige warfare, then the goal would be to translate that fluff into a playable set of rules. GW did that, first in the Index:Astartes series of articles, then in the previous Chaos Codex. Not much changed from the Astartes Article to the Codex. They still had access to Basilisks, 9 Obliterators, Tank Hunters skill, etc. However, none of that apparently exists anymore with the new codex. So, in the new Codex, there is no difference between a vanilla CSM army with 3 Vindicators and an ?Iron Warriors? army with 3 Vindicators. Changes done as ?fine tuning? is one thing but completely dropping rules for a particular army is another thing entirely. An army can have all the fluff it wants, but if that fluff is not translated into a playable set of rules then that army is no different from an army that has no fluff.

Again, I can paint my miniatures in whatever color scheme that matches the fluff, but with no rules to go along with that fluff, they are just different colored marines. The previous codex allowed players to play the established Traitor Legions as well as make up their own Renegade chapters. Want a Renegade chapter of Blood Angels? Use the Furious Charge Veteran Skill. A Renegade chapter of Space Wolves? Use the Counter Attack skill. Fenrisian wolves to go with your Renegade Space Wolves? Use chaos hound rules with wolf models. Can you make such diverse chapters of renegade Space Marines with the new Codex? Apparently not. All the "renegades" in the new Codex have apparently lost the traits and skills of their parent chapter and have instead become followers of the 4 Major Gods (although unable to summon demons specific to those gods) or they are Undivided and still have lost the traits/skills of their parent chapter, making them no different than any other renegade chapter except they are colored differently.

I feel for you guys whom have invested considerable time, effort, and money in your Chaos lists that feel hosed by this new codex. I understand your frustration.

That being said, I like the new codex (Full disclosure: I don't currently own any Chaos models) and I'm now interested in building an army. You have to figure GW believes (right or wrong) that there are more potential players (and purchasers) like me than those that will stop playing.

I just wish GW had the resources to successfully launch this codex, the daemon codex with traitors & mutants, and then Legion-specific codices (or compilations) such as those done with DA,BA,BT,SW,etc. If they could then this codex would be more successful representing generic CSM warbands. But I realize this is a pipe-dream... though it seems weird that GW wanted to nurture hope and leave it a possible pipe-dream with this codex and the rumored one coming out next year.

Mind you I've only played since 3rd edition so I"m not as jaded

Posted By dienekes96 on 08/14/2007 11:08 AM

Holy overblown responses!!!

Thoughtpolice?
Soul destroying, abandonment, and "crap over your efforts"??

but let's not get ridiculous (too late).

Well, the thought police remark was actually a jab at Warseer, but allow me to remain on point.  Namely this: you want ridiculous?  Done.

H.B.M.C.

Outstanding review. I read through the 'free' codex and then read this and shook my head in agreement at the end of every one of your insightful paragraphs.

I would like to add that I bet Andy Chambers is laughing his ass off right now.... You know I used to loathe his rules writing and his attitude to veteran gamers and such but I'd take his rules over this new trend from GW.

Posted By ubermosher on 08/14/2007 12:26 PM
I just wish GW had the resources to successfully launch this codex, the daemon codex with traitors & mutants, and then Legion-specific codices (or compilations) such as those done with DA,BA,BT,SW,etc. If they could then this codex would be more successful representing generic CSM warbands. But I realize this is a pipe-dream... though it seems weird that GW wanted to nurture hope and leave it a possible pipe-dream with this codex and the rumored one coming out next year. 

On the old GW Games Development forum, I actually suggested a couple of times they make a codex like this. However, this isn't exactly what I had envisioned. IMHO, they should have made a codex for Renegads, kept the skills and gifts from the previous codex so that players could make unique Renegade chapters instead of just different colored chapters, used Marks of Chaos similar to those found in the Lost and the Damned list, and generic demons that can be modified similar to the Creature Feature article in WD. Chapters such as the Black Legion, Iron Warriors, etc, would have their own sections like in the previous codex.

In addition, they could have made a seperate book for each of the 4 powers, or a couple of books that focused on 2 of the armies of the Major Gods each codex, like the old Lost and the Damned books from years gone by. New demon engines could be introduced. Each army list could be tailored to suit the style of God it followed. Like Juggernauts could be a Heavy Support choice for Khorne, Chosen of Tzeentch would be Sorcerors, etc, sort of like what they did with the Index:Astartes articles in WD. Remember the Favored of Khorne unit? The reaction I got most from other posters was "There's enough Marine books as it is. We don't need seperate books, as the current codex works just fine."

I started my decline into being jaded back in 5th edition Fantasy.

Posted By Polonius on 08/14/2007 11:32 AM

Secondly, the thing you have to remember about internet hyperbole is that all we have are words. No intonation, no facial expression, so gestures. Just the words that we right. So, while it's silly on the surface to write "this new codex destroyed my army and makes me feel like GW punched me in the stomach," it's more effective than writing, "man, this is annoying and I feel inconvenienced and mildly put out."

Polonius,

I agree all we have are words, with the caveat that we also have MONEY, which talks a much better game than words (provided you are part of a majority, or at least a quorum).  But going back to words, it's specifically BECAUSE of the words that I decry the overly simplistic hyperbole.  Once you hit that level of whine on a luxury hobby, you clearly have lost all reason; any further discussion is limited to junior high level discourse, at best.  It's not only silly on the surface to write such exaggerations, it's even sillier to read them with any sort of perspective. 

A much more effective way to utilize those words would be in cogent arguments explaining the position, and why it's unacceptable.  Hyperbole is merely noise, unless backed up by real data.  I consider it less effective...it undermines the entire (somewhat legitimate) point.

I think people also know that GW doesn't listen to them, or when it does, it warps what they asked for into something else. People are whining because they're upset. Yes, it's just a game. Yes, it's not a big deal. It's also not a huge deal to ignore it.

Everybody adapts. We saw Eldar, we're watching DA, we saw Elysians when the new IG hit, heck, Ork players still put armies on the field. Just give it time. In the interim, just enjoy a good old fashioned *female dog* session. They're therapeutic, and since it's online, you're never trapped in one. In a month, when everybody is actually gaming with the new book, not just hearing about it, the whining will taper off.

as for hyperbole being ineffecitve without data, I think you're missing the point. There are no cogent arguemtns to be made for some of these guys? Annoyance and frustration and whatever don't make for good data, or a simple logical complaint. Just ride the hate man, just ride it.

Think of it this way: when your buddy comes home from work, and he had a really lousy day, and he just starts ranting and raving about how he hates his job, and want's to quit, and he's going to move to alaska and work in the oil fields, do you sit there and say, "well, you may have a valid complaint, but it's a good paying job that provides you with career opportunities and a comfortable lifestyle," or do you give him a beer and say, "that sucks, dude." Sure, it's important to keep the big picture in mind. But from time to time, allow people to simply vent. It's healthier.

I've played against it. I can't really form a strong basis of opinion just yet, because the list I used against it was not the type I'd normally bring, and I lost.

The Chaos Army still seems completely competitive from what I've seen, but it no longer really has the flavor that it once did. I agree whole heartedly with H.B.M.C. This game is not anything like it was 10 years ago, and I think it suffers because of that. GW would probably be better served to return to their older style of rules.

I think if they used this Codex as a jumping point from which to write new Legion Specific Codexes, it might be cool. I agree there are perhaps too many different codexes for "men in power armor", but using "Vanilla" chaos/SM for tourneys, and a hand full of special codex's that can be included at the discretion of the organizers might be a good way to go. I do think they should have put in a customization rule set similar to that in Codex:SM though.

I am rather on both sides of the fence. I agree with Yak that simplicity = balance, but I also think that more variety is more fun. I also loathe GW's tendancy to make units that are pointless. My personal gripe is with Sisters Repentia, but the possessed are obviously very troublesome as well. Both are really cool in theory, but are not priced for their rules (15 pt Repentia might be worth it, likewise I could see taking a mess of cheap possessed on the chance they might be really cool, or moderately worthless).
I think the previous Chaos Codex seemed like the book version of drunken kit-bash: way too many things crammed into too one small book, making it difficult to figure out what was going on. I think they would have done well to have a few codex's "Renegade Marines", "Lost and The Damned (traiter guard)" and then "Marines that are REALLY Serious About Chaos and the Demons that Love Them", the latter having the specialized lists for the 4 Ruinous Powers, as well as the demons. Then you could just ally them together and pick and choose etc. just like us Loyalists do. (With the wierd Sisters and Marines don't mix exception.)

All in all, I don't play traitors, I set them on fire, so I don't mind much on a personal level, but it makes me very nervous about what is going to happen with my beloved Orks...

I would imagine by making non MEQ armies more on par with MEQ armies, you will have more of a balance of armies played. Most aren't played now because they just aren't viable. Fun, not viable.

And yes, repentia being able to use faith points would make them at least worth taking. Simple tweaks through FAQs could fix a lot of little issues. But that also causes problems....

I own, literally and without hyperbole, thousands of dollars of chaos miniatures that have been reduced to "counts as" status.  Say what you will, but I choose not to treat every single "lesser" daemon as interchangeable.



I find GW's willingness to off-handedly and without explanation render useless my prior investments in their products somewhat distressing, and it will cause me to reconsider whenever I may be faced with the choice of investing in their products again. If they are unwilling to support players after the purchase, I am unwilling to support them by purchasing.

There, no hyperbole. Content?