Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

dienekes96 wrote:

A much more effective way to utilize those words would be in cogent arguments explaining the position, and why it's unacceptable.  Hyperbole is merely noise, unless backed up by real data.  I consider it less effective...it undermines the entire (somewhat legitimate) point.

Y'know, I agree wholeheartedly with this statement and your statement about talking with your wallet... like I stated earlier, GW just lost $775 in sales in the next month, and I'm not buying anything for the forseeable future (maybe I'll see what the climate's like in '09). 

I think what absolutely annoys people though, and I count myself among them, is that fact that we have tried using arguments.  We've tried posting our feelings and thoughts about the state of our beloved forces.  We've postulated on why we feel they've screwed up big time on this blandness that is the Codex: Naughty, Spiky Space Marines Without Their Regular Equipment.  And then, after we've tried to explain how the changes invalidate a lot of our forces, we get this:

Ozymandias: "People only want to be slightly Chaotic.  4 Heavy Support choices and Siren Prince are fluffy, but random possessed?... Whoa, there, that's too Chaotic for me."

Scuddman: "Oh, I see, what you really meant to say was chaotic and overpowered.  Or you want consistency, which is hardly "chaotic" or random."

Well, gee, thanks for adding to the arguments in a coherent, well thought out reply.  I guess because we chose Chaos, we're automatically looking for overpowered and random.  Yup, that's me: I have a specially written table so I can roll for which units I'm going to use in a force when I play against others.  Really.  

So, after all is said and mocked, I think Polonius has it right.  People are upset right now.  Let them gripe amongst themselves for now, and get back to whatever they plan on doing with their forces.  In a month or two, some will be playing the Codex.  Others (like myself), will never buy it and never play with it.  I have no interest right now in tournaments, and if I did, I can still use my Eldar... and YES, I own exactly 1, count 'em, 1 Falcon, and run a strong number of guardian units.

And in the future, let's hope GW finally wises up and does the Space Marine Redux, and gets rid of all the splinter Codexes, so there's no more Space Wolves, Dark Angels, etc... just Bland Marines of Differing Colors.  I promise when the complaining of the Loyalists reaches new heights, I won't come around to say "yeah, well you were just cheese mongers for wanting a force that was different than the other Marine forces, so I don't feel sorry for you at all! Nyaaaaah!"

-Vilegrimm

Until they have completed what arc they want to for Chaos, you can't say anything truly has been deleted or removed.

Here is what they have. Codex: Renegades
coming soon is Codexaemons
they have expressed intent (which means little at this point, but helps with seeing what they are trying to do)
with trying to put out a codex or codexes that cover the legions along with sprues and support for those armies.
and even then mutant hordes are being included in Apoc. There is a possibility in the end that the books will cover all bases. Who knows.

NOw that we have heard from the CON side of the arena, would the PRO side please stand up and offer their retort to this debate.

Thanks HBMC your review, although scathing at least put out your ideas and that is appropriate. Now I would like to hear from the other side.

Can anyone offer a counter or PRO side?

Posted By Toreador on 08/14/2007 2:01 PM
Until they have completed what arc they want to for Chaos, you can't say anything truly has been deleted or removed.

Here is what they have. Codex: Renegades
coming soon is Codexaemons
they have expressed intent (which means little at this point, but helps with seeing what they are trying to do)
with trying to put out a codex or codexes that cover the legions along with sprues and support for those armies.
and even then mutant hordes are being included in Apoc. There is a possibility in the end that the books will cover all bases. Who knows.

If that's what they're going to do, then for the love of chinesus, tell us.  Not through muttered ramblings in dark rooms, but in print on the Chaos page.  They did that with the fantasy chaos books.  If they're going to include all the other chaos factions (legions, daemons, traitor guard), then they should get a new marketing team.

*Crickets chirping*

i lyk the new codpiece cuz my defliers attack veri more (x2)

They stated the want, to do that. But didn't know if they would be able to due to resources. So we have a bit of a wait.

It is confirmed that we have two codexes. What is in the second is up to speculation at this point. TLaTD is covered in apoc.

I don't think the Pro side is going to jump right in and write a review before it has been tested. If it tests well on the board, you will see some pros, if not, you get all the disgruntled reviews.

I could write a Pro review based off of just what H.B.M.C said, but would it be totally truthful or unbiased? No.

Posted By Toreador on 08/14/2007 2:26 PM

I could write a Pro review based off of just what H.B.M.C said, but would it be totally truthful or unbiased? No.

I love the implied Parthian shot.

Posted By two heads talking on 08/14/2007 2:04 PM
NOw that we have heard from the CON side of the arena, would the PRO side please stand up and offer their retort to this debate.

Thanks HBMC your review, although scathing at least put out your ideas and that is appropriate. Now I would like to hear from the other side.

Can anyone offer a counter or PRO side?

New codex double plus plus good.

From what has been said I think it's safe to say if you have a huge multipower chaos army, you should be fine.

If you are just starting, you should be fine.

If you have invested enough to play a heavily themed (AKA expensive) sub army (Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, any of the cult armies) you will probably weep and gnash your teeth.

If you played any daemon heavy Chaos Space Marine Army, well you will feel a slight pain as Dr. GW asks you to turn your head and cough. Vague talk about the ability to use your daemons with your marine in large games indicates a decided lack of viability outside of Apocolypse. Nothing has ever been said that indicates even the remotest possibility that the two books will interact like the Inquistion books. EVER.

And for those of you who are hoping Apocolypse is the savior... I give the company one year to begin neglecting it. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

On a side note, I just don't get why people think apocalypse will be awesome to any extend? It's still 40k without any restrictions barring points.
Why should the game be balanced and tactical if you just have a bigger fight?

Thanks for the review! I agree that the whole codex seems like a blueprint being published.

Greets
Schepp himself

Posted By two heads talking on 08/14/2007 2:04 PM

Can anyone offer a counter or PRO side?

Outside of the usual doublespeak it boils down to this.

The Chaos Codex has too many options, to many list that are viable and deadly.  My codex sucks thusly the Chaos codex should be bought down to my Codex's level because I have whined on the intraweb for X number of years and  cried myself to sleep at the spankings I have gotten playing 40K. 

Posted By Schepp himself on 08/14/2007 2:39 PM
On a side note, I just don't get why people think apocalypse will be awesome to any extend? It's still 40k without any restrictions barring points.
Why should the game be balanced and tactical if you just have a bigger fight?

I second that notion!

I'm not so sure that Apocalypse will be much fun, aside from the rather cool new models it might bring about...

The Ork Stompa might just get me to field an Ork army, though I've resisted since '93 (when Orks had lots of character, and a weapon that would force marine players to not field terminators!)...

The imbalance is taken care of in other ways, with more emphasis on the big stuff. Also since it isn't tourney based I see a lot more house rules and beer and pretzels style gaming.

Apocalypse seems like a good time since, if nothing else, it combines a lot of of the extra books and rules into one source. Plus, I wouldn't mind fielding some of my less viable, but really neat and fluffy (*ahem*Repentia*ahem*) models if I didn't think they were taking a slot away from something that pulls it's weight better. As stated, it seems a lot more beer and pretzle than standard 40k, due to the "Bring what you have, and we will dole out things to make up the pts difference" business.

I agree though, for those wounded by the new Chaos Codex, it is a poor poultice. I would be very upset if I had a pile of now obsolete mini's floating around, even if there was the whispered promise of a new codex for them in the months ahead. I can only imagine how I would feel if suddenly Codex: Orkz came out and all orkz that weren't in power armor like the new ones counted as gretchin. Or more keenly, if a new Witch Hunters came out that made my Exorcists count as Razorbacks.

I would find the person that did that, hold them down, and pour the melted remains of those meticulously painted tanks on their chests, so that for the rest of their lives, everyone could see the time I spent on them, and the end result.

Oh, I don't know.  I think the Demons are costly for what they are, Marines with 2 attacks, no ranged and a 5+ inv in place of a 3+ normal.

However, it would be humurous to play a 1kSons, take two biker units w/ icons, min troops and the rest demons.  For 1300 pts you could have 100 demons to summon.  Figure first turn, turbo get a 2+ Inv on both sides, next turn on average you should pop 50 demons on their side of the board within assault range.  Next turn, another 50 show up. 

Would certainly be funny to do once

 

 

They stated the want, to do that. But didn't know if they would be able to due to resources. So we have a bit of a wait.

It is confirmed that we have two codexes. What is in the second is up to speculation at this point. TLaTD is covered in apoc.

Toreador: so what you are telling us is to be patient, and eventually GW might find the resources to reinstate the Traitor Legions?  Gosh, cool, I can hardly wait... but I won't be holding my breath.

And yes, it is confirmed we have two codexes.  Have we also had it confirmed that the two will interact? Nope, pure speculation there, as you've pointed out... so why then should we wait for the obvious plethora of daemons that will be in it.  So far all we seem to have is a name for the Codex, yet the PRO side (as someone called them) is telling us our daemons will be returned then, so don't sweat it.  Pure speculation on their part, isn't it?

And who's to say that there will be a plethora of daemons and choices in this 2nd Codex?  In case you haven't noticed, the trend right now is Less, not More.  So to say that Codex: Daemons Who Shoulda Bin In the Previous Codex will be a blessing for option-starved Chaos worshippers is premature, to say the least.

Second point: the LatD has been covered in Apocalypse? Really? Has this been confirmed?  And if so, how have they been covered?  With actual rules, or just a "Oh, yah, you can use your LatD models, too, just count 'em as Renegade Guard or sumpin'" rules summary?  Sarcasm aside, I really am curious as to this one, as it may be the only saving grace and reason I pick up Apocalypse...

-Vilegrimm

Ok, I just saw the stats for the Possessed, they really aren't that bad. They do have S5, 2A and LD 10 with a 5+ Inv save. Treat the roll as a bonus and you're set. I use Wyches and Reavers in my DE army and they have random abilities rolled every game and somehow I survive.

And yes VileGrimm, it has been confirmed by GW that LatD will have a datasheet in Apocalypse. You will have access to anything in Codex: IG but must also take 3 units of mutants. And its no problem to mix them with Chaos marines as in Apoc you can ally with just about anything (the example was a SM force with allied Harlequins cause the guy "must have liked the models").

According to Phil Kelly at GDLA, Apoc is a lot of fun to play but won't really appeal to the tournament players. This has come up in another thread but he mentioned playing a game with his Nid horde vs. Alessio's Eldar with all 6 Phoenix Lords. He said it was like fighting the X-Men. I'm greatly looking forward to this release and being able to use my entire 5th company Dark Angels force, soon to be backed up by a baneblade.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Posted By Ozymandias on 08/14/2007 3:56 PM

And yes VileGrimm, it has been confirmed by GW that LatD will have a datasheet in Apocalypse. You will have access to anything in Codex: IG but must also take 3 units of mutants.

Is that supposed to make us feel better?  That's even more insulting than "Codex: Very (x2) Spiky Marines":

"Congrats, LatD players!  Go out and buy Codex: Apocalypse for the rules for your three units of mutants.  And then go buy Codex: Imperial Guard!"

Hooray for "Codex: Imperial Guard with Three Units of Deformed Guardsmen"!

This review didn't really state much that the lashwhip hate threads haven't stated already. Hate, spite, vitriol, etc. Just like with every other codex release of the past 5 years. Prophecies of doom, insults to the designers, cries of over poweredness, and alot of self assured loathing. Despite this some people will look at the codex as a shiney new and better version of that bloated over powered confusing piece of crap chaos players have been using for years and will start a new army with it.

As someone that never played second edition (I hear it was rediculous and bad) and as someone who actually likes a balanced play environment where min maxing is hard i like the codex alot. If you want a traitor legion make one. All the chosen are base troops now and you have your marks. If you still need your broken rules to feel validated then find someone willing to play you using the old codex.

To those who say "If you're playing witha group of gamers, make up your own rules!" the problem is that you need some way on forming a consensus. I play in a club of 20 guys and gals. Some I'm very good friends with, others I'm on cordial relations with, one or two I don't see completely eye to eye with but enjoy gaming with anyway. Getting all 20 to agree that my idea for a revised ork codex is fair is impossible. Some think it's broken now, some think my ideas make it overpowered, some just don't like to deviate from the written books because it's confusing. So I'm stuck with my near decade old codex, playing the ole move remove game some call 40K. Well, not really, since I've pretty much quit. But my point is still there. I pay 30 quid for a box of plastic because I can use it in a fun game with my friends. If I have to make rules for those dudes to make it fun, I want a reduction in price.
Do you see where I'm coming from with this? You generally end up having to use the official stuff, or no one will really be that happy playing you even in a friendly club setting. And I'd like to be able to compete with my stuff at a tourney if I went, so there's another problem.
I do agree that this codex is a bit of "be careful what you wish for", but would it have been that hard to include different rules for the various daemons? Really? To me, the whole thing seems rushed.
Also, random does not equal chaos in the 40K sense. The con side were wrong when they implied it- what they should have said was "random abilities suck from a list building perspective!" but the pro side were also wrong when they used it as a rebuttal. Chaos and Chaotic refers to the Warp, the Daemons, the 4 Gods and all that malarky, not the butterfly effect.
Okay?

My Exhaustive Review of the new Chaos Codex:

Its dull, not very well balanced and most of the variety has gone.

I don't think it really merits further discussion.

There's is no comparison between wyches and possessed. Don't even try. Wyches don't need any particular result on the drugs roll to be good. Hell get rid of it and they'd still be a bargain. Can't say that about the possessed. Possessed don't have a succubus like model to do the damage and they sure as hell ain't a bargain without the roll.

Closest comparison one could make would be with 13th company wulfen and even then it's a poor comparison (too many differences in abilities).

Posted By bigchris1313 on 08/14/2007 4:12 PM

Posted By Ozymandias on 08/14/2007 3:56 PM

And yes VileGrimm, it has been confirmed by GW that LatD will have a datasheet in Apocalypse. You will have access to anything in Codex: IG but must also take 3 units of mutants.

Is that supposed to make us feel better?  That's even more insulting than "Codex: Very (x2) Spiky Marines":

"Congrats, LatD players!  Go out and buy Codex: Apocalypse for the rules for your three units of mutants.  And then go buy Codex: Imperial Guard!"

Hooray for "Codex: Imperial Guard with Three Units of Deformed Guardsmen"!

Did I say it was supposed to make you feel better?!  He asked if it was confirmed and I was saying that it was.  Don't attack me for answering the guy's question.

I know it makes you feel better to rage against the world because of the new codex (despite the fact that many people including Yakface and Blackmoor are quite happy with the new dex) but don't immediately assume that everyone who doesn't hate the new Chaos codex with the fury of a thousand suns is out to piss you off.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Posted By Da Boss on 08/14/2007 4:13 PM
Also, random does not equal chaos in the 40K sense. The con side were wrong when they implied it- what they should have said was "random abilities suck from a list building perspective!" but the pro side were also wrong when they used it as a rebuttal. Chaos and Chaotic refers to the Warp, the Daemons, the 4 Gods and all that malarky, not the butterfly effect.
Okay?

Apparently no one remembers the old Chaos army lists that used to give random abilities as power-ups.  I remember playing 4th Ed with the Chaos gifts cards for the Chaos army book.  Back then, Chaos did have a random element to it.  Its not Chaos = Random, but it does have an element of randomness to it.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Posted By Ozymandias on 08/14/2007 4:52 PM

Did I say it was supposed to make you feel better?!  He asked if it was confirmed and I was saying that it was.  Don't attack me for answering the guy's question.

Doh.  My apologies.

Posted By scuddman on 08/14/2007 7:31 AM
Reading comprehension for the win.  I was showing logical fallacies in his argument.  How did that become defense of the chaos book?  And I like how no one addressed my argument. 

Yeah, except for:

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 08/13/2007 8:52 PM
Finally, Chaos =/= Random. Chaos = corruption. It's cutting your arm and mice coming out rather than blood. It's cheese and anvils falling from the sky. It's not a D6 table to find out if your 26 point Possessed are going to do anything this game.

And:

Posted By Ahtman on 08/13/2007 9:32 PM
This is almost another strawman. You are rebutting his counter-argument by defining chaos in the dictionary use, but we all know that, now follow me on this, we are talking about Warhammer's Chaos, which is not the same thing.

And:

Posted By efarrer on 08/13/2007 9:42 PM
First off. Chaotic does not mean random in this chaos (although chaos never does mean random in any sense, utter confusion at best which is a reasonable term when applied to the logic used for this book). In GW's case chaos is part of  a battle between Order and Chaos, as in an eternal struggle. Chaos destroys while order builds. Nothing random in that.

But other than that, no one has addressed your argument at all.  It is no doubt due to your towering intellect and finely honed rhetorical skills that no one is willing to even attempt to assail the flawless logic of your expertly crafted argument.  Except for the people I quoted above of course.

Reading comprehension for the win indeed.

Have you guys even thought about why things like seer council, alaitoc, and sam haim went away?

Sam Haim?  Is that like Corey Haim's brother?

Posted By Iorek on 08/14/2007 10:05 AM
~Sigh~

I guess I HAVE to start a "Claws of Lorek" army now.  Dammit.

You don't have to.  You get to.

Posted By dienekes96 on 08/14/2007 6:48 AM
This would be a bigger deal for me without Apocalypse around the corner, which will hopefully loosen up the sphincters of Rules Only as Written gamers.

Well, the new Chaos codex certainly loosens my sphincter quite a bit.  Maybe that's why I find this codex to be so much fun...

 

  

 

 

FOR ME TO POOP ON!

Posted By thehod on 08/14/2007 10:31 AM
I fall into catagory C with a Lost and the Damned army that is nolonger legal in tournament play and had +50 models that were specifically converted as Nurgle mutants along with my 10 Furies that have no place now. I know many others who have Lost and the Damned armies and for one of the gamers, that was his only army and now $500 dollars of models are now unviable.

I'm an LatD player as well, with an extensive army of unique models. Not a single one is the same as the last one. I've used plastic and metal parts from everything to Orks, to 2nd Ed Marines, Chaos Marauders, Tau, right through to ancient plastic Orlocks and Goliaths from Necromunda. The models are so different from one another, and have so much personality, that I've named about two-dozen of them (Many-Arms McCoy, Gruntz, Death's Head, Lord Grimlock, Screech, The Gimp).

I love my LatD army because it allows me to combine my two biggest armies (I have 20,000 points of Chaos and 20,000 points of Guard including multiple superheavies and several Armorued Companies) into one incredibly powerful and fluffy force. LatD is an army that gets more powerful the more fluffy you get. When I heard they were making plastic Spawn I couldn't wait to include them in my LatD force.

And now they're one page in Apocalypse?

F#%k that.

Over 100 unique and tirelessly converted models and we get a page?

BYE

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 08/14/2007 4:59 PM

Posted By thehod on 08/14/2007 10:31 AM
I fall into catagory C with a Lost and the Damned army that is nolonger legal in tournament play and had +50 models that were specifically converted as Nurgle mutants along with my 10 Furies that have no place now. I know many others who have Lost and the Damned armies and for one of the gamers, that was his only army and now $500 dollars of models are now unviable.

I'm an LatD player as well, with an extensive army of unique models. Not a single one is the same as the last one. I've used plastic and metal parts from everything to Orks, to 2nd Ed Marines, Chaos Marauders, Tau, right through to ancient plastic Orlocks and Goliaths from Necromunda. The models are so different from one another, and have so much personality, that I've named about two-dozen of them (Many-Arms McCoy, Gruntz, Death's Head, Lord Grimlock, Screech, The Gimp).

I love my LatD army because it allows me to combine my two biggest armies (I have 20,000 points of Chaos and 20,000 points of Guard including multiple superheavies and several Armorued Companies) into one incredibly powerful and fluffy force. LatD is an army that gets more powerful the more fluffy you get. When I heard they were making plastic Spawn I couldn't wait to include them in my LatD force.

And now they're one page in Apocalypse?

F#%k that.

Over 100 unique and tirelessly converted models and we get a page?

BYE

Well, considering that the only way to play with 40,000 points is going to be to use Apocalypse, whats the big deal?  Plus, for someone who makes their own rules for 40k, you are getting awfully worked up over this.  You don't use the rules anyway, make up your own rules for LatD!!

Ozymandias, King of Kings

LONG LIVE THE CLAWS OF LOREK!

Ozy: Yes, but Orks also got random power ups, as did Dark Eldar and various others. This does not, in fact, make them Chaos armies. Random powerups are just that, random. they have nothing much to do with worshipping Nurgle. I've always thought "Chaos Gods" was a misnomer, but that's a whole other thing.

That said, both sides of the argument were wrong in this regard.

I'm unhappy with the codex because I feel that diversity has been reduced, fluff has been thrown out the window, and that it was a very lazy rush job. I'm selling my plague marines. I'm gonna wait until january, but I think that based on these trends, I'll be selling my orks soon too. And that's pretty big for me, I've been a rabid ork fan for years. but I think it's time for me to wake up and smell the coffee- 40K is fundementally broken, and GW aren't really interested in fixing it.