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I own the first chaos BOOKS. Lost and the Damned, and Slaves to Darkness.
I played second, third, and fourth edition.

This new book, sucks.
H.B.M.C. is right on target with the general conversational value of this book, and any and all sorts of splitting hairs with the opinion are all fine and good, but lets see some games played with this hunk of crap, and you will quite possibly go back and melt down your armies just out of boredom alone. Some of you are absolutely clueless as to why this new codex is such a terrible tragedy, and will never figure out that this damn game used to be fun. The Army was YOURS. You took pride in your creation, and it was fun with interesting rules, and a good build as well. Units were crazy, characters were flakes, and it was neat.This new codex garbage, and subsquent books are .50 cent novels,or cliffnotes version of an army book, and the effort put into thier creation is easily compaired to a silent fart.

The real question I have is what that Vortex Grenade Template is really going to do on crap armies such as the new pawn for the win, " CHAOS SPACE MARINES" if this is the best that Gav the Noob can come up with.

I really hate to say it, but I'm scared at what this Apocalypse crap is really going to do to this, if this is the trend of this game.

Posted By Ozymandias on 08/14/2007 5:05 PM

Well, considering that the only way to play with 40,000 points is going to be to use Apocalypse, whats the big deal?  Plus, for someone who makes their own rules for 40k, you are getting awfully worked up over this.  You don't use the rules anyway, make up your own rules for LatD!!

I think I'm going to start a charity for the terminally stupid. You can be our spokes person.

But thanks for missing my point completely, again, Ozy. You never fail to impress.

I want to use my LatD in games of 40K, not always in 20,000 point games of Apoc. 'Make up your own rules' is not an argument. 

BYE

Posted By keichi246 on 08/14/2007 10:37 AM
The loss of a handful of funky game mechanics that differentiated your army slightly from the REST of your faction is not enough to destroy it.

Slightly??  I think a squad of slow & purposeful terminator automatons led by a sorcerer champion is a little more than slightly different than, well... anything that exists in the new codex.  What, did they all get eaten by Tyranids?

Yeah I could have them "counts as" terminators with a Tzeentch icon.  But they wouldn't be slow & purposeful.  Or fearless.  And they wouldn't be led by a sorcerer.  So how do I rationalize having inferno bolts, slow & purposeful, fearless, and a sorcerer champion in every rubric unit except terminators?  Does Terminator armour somehow make rubrics faster and more cowardly?

Oh wait, I got it!  Some Thousand Sons sorcerers have a genetic defect that gives them ADHD.  This causes their psychic powers to manifest in such a way that they can speed up the rubrics to normal walking speed!  Unfortunately since they have ADHD (and are completely insane) sometimes during the middle of a close combat they will just wig out and head for the hills.  Now that's fluffy!

Posted By keichi246 on 08/14/2007 10:37 AM
Towards the end of the 3rd edition, the Devs seemed to believe that every little bit of background and fluff required that the army have a special rule to represent it.

And who says they don't still do that now?  Jervis?  He's the guy who wrote the "Deathwing Assault" rule ferchrissakes!

Posted By thehod on 08/14/2007 10:31 AM
but its also funny how the renegade marines seemingly ditched their assault cannons, razorbacks, landraider crusaders, landspeeders, thunderhammers, and whirlwinds and I guess dropped them in the trash bin for some orks to loot.

That's a big wtf for me as well.  Why is it that when loyalists go bad they all revert to pre-Heresy tech?  Is this explained anywhere?  Where the hell are they getting all their reaper autocannons and havoc launchers?

Well, Ozy, thanks for confirming the LatD/Apocalypse item for me... and Big Chris, I'm glad you apologized... I did ask him, after all. 

With that being said, anyone have any inside information on how the LatD is going to play?  Are they allowing the Big Mutant Squads to be more than 10 strong, or are we still limited to only 10?  I know I can't wait to show off my uniquely created Big Mutants, which include bits from original Ogryns to the original Beast of Nurgle right up the the Horned Rat's Avatar himself!  Now I just need to know what kind of role they'll play in Apocalypse.

Oh, and my Chaos Hounds... I usually include a pack of them with my traitors as well... hopefully I can field a horde of them.

Any info on whether the mutant's firearms are still wackadoo explosive?  I kill as many of my mutant's as I do opposition with them, but dang, they're fun!

 

I did find this rebuttal/comment to H.B.M.C. funny, though...

Well, considering that the only way to play with 40,000 points is going to be to use Apocalypse, whats the big deal?

Umm, excuse me?  What's this?  Since WHEN did I or anyone else have to ask GW's Permission to play large forces?  Hell, we had an 18,000 pt. battle (per side, that is) to start off the new edition of 40K.  Oh, crap, do you think GW read this?  Do you think they're off to our homes right now to arrest us for not getting permission?

Sheesh!  They've already stated that Apocalyptstic isn't for the Tourney Crowd anyway, so why does everyone think that NOW they can finally play a larger than usual force, just because GW said it's ok to?  Sure, there will be some extra rules, but the power to play with whatever you want is already in your hands, people... and for less than the posted prices for Rules and Templates.

-Vilegrimm

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 08/14/2007 5:25 PM

Posted By Ozymandias on 08/14/2007 5:05 PM

Well, considering that the only way to play with 40,000 points is going to be to use Apocalypse, whats the big deal?  Plus, for someone who makes their own rules for 40k, you are getting awfully worked up over this.  You don't use the rules anyway, make up your own rules for LatD!!

I think I'm going to start a charity for the terminally stupid. You can be our spokes person.

But thanks for missing my point completely, again, Ozy. You never fail to impress.

I want to use my LatD in games of 40K, not always in 20,000 point games of Apoc. 'Make up your own rules' is not an argument. 

BYE

I believe the make up your own rules was a suggestion not an argument.  I don't see the harm in it regardless unless you are planning to frequent the tournament scene.  It sounds like you play with some laid back gamers anyways so disliking the new dex is not really something to stroke over.

Anyways back to the thread!

http://cleeseargument.ytmnd.com/

Ah, so does this mean it's time to stop complaining about the Dark Angels Codex? If so, I am a happy, happy man!

Posted By Pariah Press on 08/14/2007 5:56 PM
Ah, so does this mean it's time to stop complaining about the Dark Angels Codex? If so, I am a happy, happy man!

Of course not! We've all got quotas to meet.

BYE

Posted By Pariah Press on 08/14/2007 5:56 PM
Ah, so does this mean it's time to stop complaining about the Dark Angels Codex? If so, I am a happy, happy man!

And double posts to make!

BYE

He's also the guy who seemed to think that that sole rule made up for the nerfing of the entire army.

I'm glad to see that at least a few people are finding positives with this Codex. If GW can't do right by me, at least they can do right by some of their customers.

For me what it comes down to is that they've telegraphed their intentions and then failed at them.

They vastly cut down on the options in hopes of controlling unseen uber combintations... And yet Iron Warriors were the most broken army in the old Dex. Nothing complicated about them, except lots of HS, lots of Oblits. There's no combo, there's just one broken rule that makes it all possible.

And what happens in this new, severely oversimplified version? Lash of Submission, probably the single most broken rule in the entire game.

Somehow they manage to simultaneously be vastly overcautious, and at the same time totally careless. It's the worst of all worlds.



No. I can't speak for everyone, but I can speak for myself... I hate Codex DA and BA for reasons not worth repeating. But I love Codex Eldar. Virtually every unit in the list is interesting and worth taking. Tau Empire is a good expansion of the original, it adds a few options, fixes a few issues, has a bunch of worthwhile units, and is competitive without being broken.

You can't tell me I hate everything GW does, and therefore the new Chaos Dex is great. I don't hate everything they do. I love virtually all of their models and fluff. I think the core rules are decent, playable, loosely worded and poorly FAQed. I think some Codices are great, some are average and some suck. Particularly lately.

It's almost like I have an opinion that's more complicated than your sweeping dismissal. Almost.

What's especially sad about all this, is that as much as I hate the Codex, as much as I hate Lash of Submission, I absolutely love the WHFB Chaos Warrior models and want to make an army with them. I'm still liable to buy this assbag of a Codex and buy more product from GW.

As I said above, I'm glad at least yak is happy.

Perhaps my previous post about selling the right to fight Jervis is too much. Instead, I think every book GW publishes should come with a little card inserted, which contains ratings for the models, art and rules. Rate what you like, send it in. Then the revenue can get split up according to ratings. THEN, when Jervis is actually in debt to GW, he can quit and retire to the island of chubby self-deprecating humor and be their bacon butty munching god king.

Seriously, what the F is a "bacon butty?" Does it make you slowed?



I don't either. "Think our rules are getting too shallow? Here's a game that makes them EVEN MORE shallow, but requires you to paint five times as many models!"

I can't even fathom what the hell they're thinking.

Lookin at apocolypse, it really doesn't look to be something I could take part in with my current ork footsloggers and enjoy.
"What, you mean blasts and armour are even more prevalent? I'll get to remove even more models every turn? My movement phases will be even longer and even more ultimately pointless? If I want to be more effective/have more fun I'll have to invest massive chunks of money in a game that ultimately sucks at it's base? Wow, that sounds fantastic, sign me up."

HBMC, thanks for the laughs and the candor.

I really do appreciate candor, and humor....and ....monkeys....

Anyways, Its sad that this codex is yet another dull reminder of the current financial position that GW could get out of if it tried, but steadfastly refuses to because they have a guy that thinks he knows what he is doing, but really has been in the business for far too long.

Thanks Jervis. Just because you could never beat Andy Chambers in a BATREP, you have to take it out on everyone else? Browbeat the rest of the dev team into your clouded view of how fun is made?

Pathetic, just like this codex.

110% fail in the fun factor. Not even Apocalypse could make this codex look good.

Someone asked for pro comments. I haven't read the new codex so I cannot say for sure  but I have liked the Eldar, Dark Angels ,and Blood  Angels codex  (I have to re do  my entire army). From all of the rumors I am more excited about this codex than any of the 4th edition ones. With minor tweaking I will still be able to use all 9 of my chaos forces (10 if you count the fallen) and I might even put together one more based just on the renegades . In my regular group there has only been one person who dislikes the rumors  The Plague  Marine player can use Heavy Weapons,  The 1000 sons  player  might actually win a game or two, The former Iron warrior player who figured out that he was really playing black legion can now use deamons without repainting all of his minis.  The guy who plays his own legion just has to use the new rules. And the guy who is working on a 100% converted slanenesh army can do some really cool snake daemons. Most of the group only play for fun but a few of us go to tournaments.

i played my first game with the new codex last night and i loved it. It is far superior then the old codex which was fulls of errors and broken bits. I am just glad that the stupid members of the gaming community can no longer find a home in the chaos codex. go you silly chaos players who hate this codex go to the nids or the tau or the upcoming orks.
get your whiney asses out of this army.
I will gladly run up my 88 berzeker army up the middle of the field to get slaughtered.

killing for khorne since '92

Posted By skkipper on 08/14/2007 8:57 PM
get your whiney asses out of this army.

Y'know, you're right.

The people with the hundreds if not thousands of dollars worth of Daemons, and those of us with now-invalid Death Guard, 1KSons, World Eater, Word Bearer, Iron Warrior, Night Lord, Emperor's Children, Alpha Legion and LatD armies - we're just a bunch of whiney asses.

Just because we've spent time, money and effort on crafting complex armies simply does not give us the right to complain when GW gives us the privilege of using a new Codex.

BYE

Great review, HBMC, I really enjoyed it!

I totally agree that the new codex sounds like a pile of crap. But it occurred to me that the crap has a silver lining. I can actually play with my berzerkers again. I shelved them for pretty much the entire duration of the previous codex because in that incarnation they were unplayable. Deploy them and watch them run around in random directions for 6 turns leaping in and out of vehicles willy-nilly and roll some dice. But now I can actually decide what they do! What a novel thought. I might actually play 40K again. Maybe.

I also don't get the Apocalypse hype. If the core game has gotten crappy, how does using more models make it better?

Well, I did my part today for Lost and the Damned.

I explained to the head of GW in the US, and his boss from the UK, why putting out a LatD army list in white dwarf would make lots of people happy, and make them and me lots of money selling models.

Hopefully the small seed will grow to a mighty tree. And maybe the mighty tree will sprout mutants and plague zombies, and chaos infested tanks and... well , you get the idea.

Well done Mikhalia.

Crawling Chaos - I'm actually looking forward to Apocalypse for much the same reason I looked forward to (and enjoyed) Cities of Death. It's something a little different and, the best part, all the best bits we can pilfer for our own ruleset!!

BYE

I don't have a copy, but I think the two pro has to be for folks starting a new chaos army. The new codex encourages more of a buffet style to army comp, and less restricted by legion rules. Assuming that for every person that loved legion rules there is a person who always wanted to create their own warband, it's a wash. A new player I know is incredibly exicted, because the 1k sons, berzerkers, bikes, and raptors they bought can all be used together. Of course, it could before, but the emphasis seems to be encouraging that.

Beyond that, I'm guessing the big pro is that some of the toughest builds on the tournament circuit are gone. Iron Warriors in particular is not going to be mourned outside of it's boltgun and yellow home. Certain troublesome units, such as infiltrating speed lords and the popular glaive prince are also removed.

I think it really is Codex: Naughty Space Marines, but the focus is back on space marines, and less on the lords, daemons, etc.

Those that have played it seem to love it, and barring other evidence that has to count for something. I feel incredible sympathy for all players with extensively converted armies, because the loss of legion rules has hit you harder than any rule change since the release of 3rd edition. There has never been an invalidation of units, removal of options, elimination of wargear, or a loss of diversity on this magnitude since the BBB lists.

On the other hand, while I'm leery about this new book, I intend to read it and play it before I dismiss it. I understand and empathize with the haters, and I want to mail GW nude photos of Boris Yeltsin just to punish them for what they did to loyal vets, but I would strongly discourage any players from selling armies before really giving the new codex a try. In economics it's called a sunk cost: the army is paid for, and while you might not get the value out of it you planned, you will still get value for little or no future investment.

The best way to punish GW for this new codex is to play your old army, with those models, but never spend a dime on new models. This new codex had one goal: make money. Denying them that is the only victory left.

Posted By mikhaila on 08/14/2007 9:22 PM

Well, I did my part today for Lost and the Damned.

I explained to the head of GW in the US, and his boss from the UK, why putting out a LatD army list in white dwarf would make lots of people happy, and make them and me lots of money selling models.

Hopefully the small seed will grow to a mighty tree. And maybe the mighty tree will sprout mutants and plague zombies, and chaos infested tanks and... well , you get the idea.

I don't understand why GW would ever think of cancelling LATD.  It's a freaking money maker for GW.  They can sell bitz, sprues, and models from a dozen ranges (IG, CSM, SM, Nid, Ork, Necromunda, empire, VC, O&G, skaven, Chaos, beastmen, epic, and inquisitor), and I wager their bitz service has to be one of the most profitable arms for GW.  Every army is converted, every army is expensive, and every player is an enthusiastic ambassador for the game.

 

Plus the list is weak.....I will miss beating up on foolish people who think it is a good one to play.

I wouldn't say the list was weak. It had a lot of toys that grew folks away from the real power: mutants. Cheap, shambling hordes of plague zombies that are fearless? Good stuff. Traitors for fire support: yes please! Obiliterators for funsies! Daemons to taste!

No other list combined hard units with horde as effectively as LatD. Was it a tournament winner? Not really. But it was always fun to play against, and only time constraints prevented me from building one of my own. Now I'm waiting for a Daemon Legion.

Hmm,

The lack of detail and apparent dumbing down of the rules (hence the dullness) seems to be an underlying current of the newer revisions of codecies.

There are two factions apparently (with a few on the fence) that seem to be developing out there, one that thinks that an easy game that has reduced variables and streamlined concepts (more so than what we currently have) will expand the game to people that have not previously been able to play the game and also make it easier for people to pick up the game cold turkey and be able to have a chance at playing it.

I think all of us (well most) of us can agree that GW has taken this view. The whole concept that the wargear section has been made into (IE so a 5 year old can understand it, this has been commented on a few times prior) only emphasies the idea that the game designers are no longer aiming there rules and designs at people that enjoy the system, the style and 'fun' that goes along with well thought out and variable (NB: not random in this sense) entities that can be taken on the battefield that essentially are moderated by a scale system called 'points'.

The other warfaring faction (which HBMC has been the greatest advocate for) is the one where the rules, troops, fluff, art and game is about flavour and fun. It's not destroying the rules but more importantly the blood sweat and tears (and lets face it, thousands upo thousands of dollars) that the avid gamers (Us, well if your posting on dakka your an above average gamer generally) but it's trying to fis the rules and problems that will stem from any human made ruleset or codex.

This is the problem,
The second faction (those wanting a fun and varying game) have seen that aspect of the game which they held dearest to be spat on and beaten by those who seem to not understand the reason that people play this game and will go ahead and buy those stupidly expensive figures from GW in the first place.

The lack of variety in this codex is the most stark reality that underlies where GW I think is heading (and why I don't like the rules, precepts, units and direction that this project and company is heading)

DAEMONS:
Before a varied example of creatures with obvious different traits and alignments (well there were 4 gods and a few other one's thrown in). There was flavour, obvious differences and importantly different (well designed and expensive) models for each of these. This not only has been removed (I'm not suggesting that the previous daemons were perfect, but fun and not as dull as the current breed of big Vs small daemons)

As HBMC pointed out,
Bloodthirsters are now as powerful as a keeper of secrets in combat (and ironically from what I can see, as good at psychic powers - Please correct me if I'm wrong, oh please say it's not so!!!)

This is the outrage.
Why!?!?

Why make Chaos marines plus litererally (I mean not even as they don't have access to the nice stuff that makes marines - No donkey cannons and cyclones, no plasma and multi-meltas and most importantly no snpiers)

I mean,
This is turning into marines minus (with a few expensive things tacked on)


DAEMON PRINCES:
Does anyone like the idea of every daemon prince being Slaanesh (regardless of the army that is follwoing it) with a whip of some sort. I mean they went from having so many options (which I liked, but will acknowledge it annoyed others) to 3 options, 3!!!!

What the, you mean that I can now have
wings or not
mark or not
that stupid lash or not

How does anyone come up with this idea and think (Hmm, I like this game and it will make for interesting and fun armies and tournaments)

THEY DON'T, they are operating on a different paradigm.


This is the sad thing about this codex,
this is why we have written our own rules,
this is why HBMC dislikes this codex (Hopefully not too much of a strawman :-)
this is why I agree,

The rules don't have to be perfect (man, I know they wont be - If they were I would be utterly bemused at their genious) but they should be fun,

This is a game (this is a good game)
this codex doesn't seem to enhance that (with the exception of the superb additions to the fluff - Which I will like many other congratulate the GW staff - This is great)


But make the game fun,
don't dumb it down this much (I mean if we are painting and collecting we can handle a little if not a huge amount more choice in the list)

I mean,
1Ksons being AP3 everywhere (what the, talk about a pendulum swing)
Khorne being reduced to an insane vampire that likes getting his hands dirty.



Sad stuff,
I mean I see why people could like this,
but the direction this codex is showing is what is most disturbing,


And if we think it will all be fixed by a Daemon Codex (we are going to be really disappointed) it's just going to be the same thing (otherwise who would ever use this bland excuse of paper to make a list ever again)

Well,
unless they want a greater daemon of generic, 6 1Ksons units with Bolts and maybe an unarmoured spawn for some illogcal reason,

Again,
sad.

:-(

Wow that was an eloquent way of trashing people who have a different opinion of what makes a game fun, and whether rules not choices to use certain units or not create unique and fluff driven lists. Some people will like this codex others will not. I suspect that once some of the people on both groups play with the codex they will have a different opinion some for better some for worse.

Here's something else that occurred to me. Aren't the new daemon rules pretty much the same as the rules for daemon adversaries in the Daemonhunters codex? I don't have that here, so I can't check it, but it seems pretty much the same. What a cop out. As it is now, bloodletters are my favorite unit in the game. After next month, there's no way I'd use them. Granted maybe they were too good for a troop slot, but they could have made them elite or fast attack (because of summoning) to make up for that. I guess they thought that spikey marines needed scouts.

Posted By vhwolf on 08/14/2007 10:17 PM
Wow that was an eloquent way of trashing people who have a different opinion of what makes a game fun, and whether rules not choices to use certain units or not create unique and fluff driven lists. Some people will like this codex others will not. I suspect that once some of the people on both groups play with the codex they will have a different opinion some for better some for worse.

All I can say to that is...

fair enough

:-)

The old adversaries were 20 pts per, similar stat line but WS, S, T, and I were +/- 1 from the new daemons (roll a d3 per ability). They also had instability on LD8. They did have either Visage or Talons randomly. That's a unit that's totally dependent on the rolls. WS and I 5 with rending makes them awesome, but S3 without rending will be hardpressed to do much.

One feature that not enough people recognize about the new daemons is that they are fearless and T4, making them ideal for small (I'm thinking six bodies per squad) counter assault, tie up, or objective holding units.  They're cheap enough, at only 78pts per unit of six, and while they can't be counted on to do any damage, they can survive small amounts of shooting.

Polonious,

I agree entirely with your comments,
but that's what is so diappointing.

Out of the immortal hordes of deamons, they have been reduced to a mere second thought that may or may not be useful at holding an objective (due to summoning) but will be as good as a marine that ran out of bullets and took their power pants off while in combat.

Just seems wrong,
bloodletters getting minced in combat,
deamonette calvary being slow,
screamers being kept on the ground for no apparent reason,

Or the worst possiblity of it all,
these daemons no longer exist at all.


Yes, they are still tactically useful, but in terms of what we had compared to what has replaced it, I think the latter is the one that is lacking.

Well, I feel about the same way you do. The loss of variety (and effectiveness) is a blow. I had always wanted a daemonbomb, and I finally started building one when the first rumors were oozing out. Knowing that the list would probobly be invalidated, I built anyway, and I don't regret it. I figure I'll use the current codex when I'm allowed for fun, I'll build a new/different army with the new book (i'm liking the idea of a neo-rhino rush: tons of marines, bolters, ccws, fists, meltas, and 35pt rhinos), and I'll try to make my old list work as well as possible in the new reality.

I'm lucky in that I assumed the worst when the rumors were floating two months ago, and so I'm not surprised or shocked. In terms of the stages of grief, I've moved unto acceptance. At this point, I'm trying to figure out how to make bikes, lesser daemons, a unit of 1k sons, a unit of world eaters with bolters (old school models), some oblits and a scattered heavy weapons into an army.

I'm thinking about building 3 squads of 4 termies, all with combi meltas. This is 420pts, for 4 units of 2+/5++ deep striking goodness with meltas. shootier than IG drop vets, they're way more survivabale and not awful in assault.

The way to approach this new codex is to treat it like a new army, and any units you can recycle from your old army are a bonus. It sucks, but it's about the most positive spin I can put on it. I think there's some good stuff in there, and when we find it, things won't be so bad.

To all people believing that a forthcoming Codex: Daemons will save the day - you are messing irrational hopes with a sad present. There's no guarantee that it will change anything, nor even that it will change anything for the better.

Here is an analogy: Please send me some money and I may give you back a random amount of money in the future. Interested?

I disagree with Yak's statement on balance either. Balance is harder to achieve when complexity arise, but that's what game design skills are for. If your only mean of achieving balance is through simplification, you are simply grossly incompetent as a game designer. Moreover, the now-dull Chaos codex is not any better balanced than the previous one. Wait for all those twin-winged-daemon-princes-with-lash-of-submission HQ armies, it will make you sick.