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I think we are very much on the same wavelength,

However,
instead of embracing the new rules and trying to strain some useful and fun things out of it, our group has taken the opinion that we could do a better job with the rules (well in general)

So when I and HBMC (same group) look at these rules and we say.
My goodness I'm glad we have made revisited, all of these good things (Rhino's dropping in price and minimum squads) if they prove to be good and fun and useful can find it into our rules (the advantage of control)

But,
we on the whole seem to all have had the same reaction (why would we even think about using this compared to what we have), almost an exercise in futility (but that is too harsh as there are definately some good points and good fluff)

Interesting too see if people play this varied (i really hope so) but I do seem to think that it is more likely to be a set army style that is just way better than the rest.

I hope I'm wrong,
I just don't see myself and so many people who wanted (and really hoped) they wouldn't go in this direction.

Kotrin:

the 2 lash princes and 6 1KSons with Bolts of change will be very widely used,
so much AP3 and AP1.

The balance is about the same and that is because they simplified the models (and not the points and battle system) doesn't really matter what they do there will be balance issues (people will always want to power play so certain things will never have an inherant value in all siutations)

but very good point about being annoyed with lack of balance,
it has only delayed that annoyance (because we are all lamenting the loss of the daemonic legions atm)

I'm really intrigued by the re-write you guys are doing. I'd flipped through the rules, and they seem pretty robust. One of the greatest advantages of amateur rules writing is the ability to shamelessly and completely filch great mechanics from other systems. I'm not saying you're not doing good work of your own, but a few of the influences seem pretty strong, and HBMC has commented on pillaging rules from supplements and the like.

In my area, I'm lucky to find players, let alone a group that has that kind of motivation, so I'm pretty content to truck along with whatever GW is swilling me.

Honestly, outside of tough guy tournament situations (which occur at what, maybe 2 dozen RTTs and GTs annually in the US?), the average gamer loves the new eldar codex, and the chaos book seems to mirror it. I think we'll see a lot of variety, both within and between armies. While the Legion rules were incredible, the ability to create a personalized warband for a great hero (even if they're all DPs of slaanesh...) is a neat narrative hook for creating an army. I'm sure casual gamers will fiddle with the douple DP/lash combo, and than like a lot of gimmic armies, move on to other fun stuff.  If the combo is as strong as we fear, it'll probobly be a staple of RTT armies, but the fact that the three strongest armies have anti-psyker abilities (SM, nids, and eldar) makes the lash more and more similar to Fear of Darkness: potentially devestating, but only against some armies.  The fact that it's the same handful of armies that they both bone (DE, non-mech tau, IG), I'm not thrilled, but there's no 3+ model that enough guardsmen won't eventually kill.

While I believe that the old codex could have been toned down and balanced without being gutted like a river trout, I fully intend to give the new book an honest chance to impress me.

Wow.  Thanks for the review, H.B.M.C.  I would say that it saves me $$$, but I will pick it up and see it for myself.

But, being a LatD player, I'm sorely disappointed.  I was thinking if the codex was any good, I would just (reluctantly) switch over to CSM.  But, now I'm not so sure that is what I want to do with my LatD models.  And no, I don't want to do a "Counts As Army."  That is not why I built my WHOLE army.

What kills me is the people that say that we need to "suck it up" and just play.  Hummmm...  What's the term:  "Bite me."  That is also directed at GeeW.  I like variety.  I loved the idea that if I'm going to play a CSM army, I would be surprised to see what was across from me.  Not knowing what I'm going to face is the challenge in making a "balanced" army.  But, from what I'm reading, cookie-cutter armies are the way of the future.

I guess my hope for 40K lays in the possibility of  a "good" DE codex.

I guess my chances are about as good as H.B.M.C. being "nice".     Oh, and by the way, H.B.M.C., you been sigged.

Posted By untitled on 08/14/2007 4:16 PM
My Exhaustive Review of the new Chaos Codex:

Its dull, not very well balanced and most of the variety has gone.

I don't think it really merits further discussion.

Untitled, you now have a title.


You will now be known as "Mentos, the Truth Maker".

Anything else is just two sides bickering back and forth.

Poster #1 "You're stupid!"
Poster #2  "No! You're stupid!"

Ad nausaeum until the mods decide to close the thread, which by my watch, wont be too long from now....

Posted By Yad on 08/14/2007 9:29 AM
I'm with you on this on H.B.M.C. I just recently bought (4 months ago) a chaos army off of Ebay, not having a clue about the new direction the Chaos codex was going in. I've got about 30 Deamonettes, 10 Plaguebearers, 10 Bloodletters, and a bloodthirster staring back at me now. I think I need to model them giving me the finger.... I've also got about 30 or 40 regular CSMs that I'd give to my daughter to play with if they weren't a choking hazard.

Ha! You bought my army from ebay? Sucker!!!

Just kidding.

Shut the thread down? C'mon! This is fun. It's a discussion, and I doubt I've ever seen one grow so fast on Dakka before. And I even achieved my original goal for this thread - I've been sigged!

Ok, that last part is a joke, I didn't really start the thread just to get sigged. I started it because generic Daemons make Baby Jesus cry.

BYE

Hmm,
well this makes two times your getting sigged

Oh, I dont mind it either myself, but when little kids want to play with sharp pointy sticks with the big boys, invariably mommy gets involved when she sees little timmy crying because his feelers got hurt.

Posted By Hellfury on 08/15/2007 1:09 AM
Oh, I dont mind it either myself, but when little kids want to play with sharp pointy sticks with the big boys, invariably mommy gets involved because little timmy is crying because his feelers got hurt.

Feelers?

Are we comparing the pro-Codex: When Good Marines Go Bad crowd to insects now?

BYE

Insects have feelers? I thought they had antennae. *shrug* Ya learn something new everyday, I suppose.

Well,

in all honesty some have both,
but I don't think that was the issue,

Um,
power weapons....

OK the issue of v3.5 vs v4 has been beaten into the ground.  So let's try a really hard question...

Is it better or worse than this book?

Posted By Kid_Kyoto on 08/15/2007 1:47 AM

Is it better or worse than this book?

The same.

BYE

Posted By Polonius on 08/14/2007 9:39 AM

Posted By efarrer on 08/14/2007 8:39 AM

Posted By Polonius on 08/14/2007 8:14 AM

Sorry if I jumped at you, but between here and Warseer the "you're only kvetching because you lose your cheese" rallying cry is deafening.

I suspect we have a couple from warseer who have come over to poke the hornet's nest after the link was posted .

I think so.  The thread with the link got closed though.  I think blackshirted Warseer gangs are going to people's houses and searching for any who dare critique the new codex.

I don't hate the new book, but it's a slap in the face to veteran gamers, and we're certainly allowed a few weeks to kvetch about it.

Am I the only one who prefers Dakka's policy of keeping closed threads around, rather than deleting them?

I like that as well. They can be some of the best threads to read

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 08/15/2007 3:30 AM

Posted By Kid_Kyoto on 08/15/2007 1:47 AM

Is it better or worse than this book?

The same.

BYE

CHEATER!

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 08/14/2007 9:12 PM

The people with the hundreds if not thousands of dollars worth of Daemons, and those of us with now-invalid Death Guard, 1KSons, World Eater, Word Bearer, Iron Warrior, Night Lord, Emperor's Children, Alpha Legion and LatD armies - we're just a bunch of whiney asses.

To say that all of these armies are invalid is a gross over simplification.

DG, 1Ksons, World Eater, and Emperor's Children lists can easily be played.  They play different, but so be it. 

If you want to play your old style alpha legion, you have the option of taking three chosen units for infiltration and lots of your "worthless" daemons.  You did lose cultists, so I can understand some complaints here.

If you want to play Word Bearers - take standard "mark of glory" and tons of daemons.  Your thousands of dollars worth of daemons are not wasted.  They can still be played and they can still be effective.  You have essentially lost nothing with this army.  Again, they will play different, but so be it.

As for IW, you need to make a choice now on havocs vs oblits or a combination of both.  I would say that besides LatD, that IW lost the most as far as making all of their models carry over and still be playable.  Not that it is a bad thing, but still it would suck.

LatD did suffer the most and this one I agree with you that GW needs to include them somewhere. 

I am thinking that since demons are all going to be "counts as", if I make that LatD army I was thinking of, I am just going to replace all the icons with PokeBalls , and try and get cheap Pokemon figs and put then on bases. Maybe draw some extra fangs on them...

I wonder if the old demon models are going to get suddenly cheaper, since they don't really function, or if they will just be used with WHFB and stay the same price.

Don't anyone dare shut this thread down. These are the threads that keep me coming back to DakkaDakka. Dakka is like an island of distilled hate in a sea of kool-aid drinking mouth breathers. It invigorates me to know that there is such discontent out there.

On a serious note, Apocalypse is very worrisome to me. It just screams of "We have no idea how to fix this horrible game we've made so we'll distract everyone with an expansion that ignores all the core problems of the game" YAY!!!!

You think it's fun playing a 1750 point game with Chaos? Wait until Apocalypse comes along and there are 27 Lash Princes sitting on the other side of the table from you with SUPER DUPER Strength D weapons that can kill Khorne and Tzeentch and Jesus and Buddha all in one shot!!!111one!!` Lets take 6 hours to set up our 9000 point armies and remove 6500 points of them after the first shooting phase!!

The models are cool, the sales on massive boxed sets are cool. The rules and the prospect of having to shell out more moneys for a rulebook is absolute crap. I'm done slamming the lame chaos codex, I've moved on to slamming the Apocalypse book. Criticising the Chaos Codex is so last Monday.

I'll absolutely agree that the LatD are getting screwed in general by GW. They always have been, even when they did get their (pretty cool) list. But I don't lay that at the feet of Codex: CSM...because that would be slowed. Codex: CSM hasn't been the host of the LatD list since, mostly ever. But I agree that LatD need real attention...much more so than a Daemon Codex.

As for comments of "make up rules" or "get over it"...you have no other choice unless you choose to man up and own up to your threats and leave the hobby. GW did not promise you DICK when you bought CSM 3.5 and/or 60 cultists. You made that decision, notably AFTER GW unceremoniously DUMPED the Squats, so you knew what you were getting into.

When I spent my metric butt-ton of money of 13th Company conversion bits and started to build, I knew I might get boned in the future. But I love my army, so I'll find a way to make it work. That's my conscious decision. If this new Codex destroyed your 2000 dollar army that you invested time into (which hopefully you enjoyed, since there was no guarantee it would always be viable), then sell it, cut your losses and leave the hobby. Or stay, keep the army, and you have earned your right to complain, even if it makes you look like a glutton for punishment. But don't drop in the "woe is me" argument, or at least be funny when you do it. Otherwise, it's pathetic.

Dakka, more and more, is a place where folks hold a candle and refuse to light it, because they'd rather curse the darkness. Rail on GW all you want...I don't care. They are a faceless company designed to make money. There is NO social bargain. But quit pretending it's personal.

It's not show friends...it's show BUSINESS.

Posted By Polonius on 08/14/2007 10:05 PM
I wouldn't say the list was weak. It had a lot of toys that grew folks away from the real power: mutants. Cheap, shambling hordes of plague zombies that are fearless? Good stuff. Traitors for fire support: yes please! Obiliterators for funsies! Daemons to taste!

No other list combined hard units with horde as effectively as LatD. Was it a tournament winner? Not really. But it was always fun to play against, and only time constraints prevented me from building one of my own. Now I'm waiting for a Daemon Legion.

That's what gets me about the LatD list.  It's very flexible and diverse, and can be tooled up to be decently competitive without ever being broken.  Considering the list allies with different codicies, etc., it's quite a feat for GW.  LatD is exactly the kind of list GW should be creating, and instead they can't wait to cancel it. 

Posted By mikhaila on 08/14/2007 9:22 PM

Well, I did my part today for Lost and the Damned.

I explained to the head of GW in the US, and his boss from the UK, why putting out a LatD army list in white dwarf would make lots of people happy, and make them and me lots of money selling models.

Thanks Mike!  GW may be hard of hearing, but they do listen when you yell loud enough.    I'm trying to do some yelling of my own on various forums.

I think a WD list would make a ton of sense.  It'd be like a new army release that doesn't require a bunch of new boxed sets or shelf space.  If that doesn't happen, I'm hoping for at least some coverage in the second Chaos book.  But I don't like the way the winds seem to be blowing there...

Posted By Inquisitor_Malice on 08/15/2007 5:14 AM

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 08/14/2007 9:12 PM

The people with the hundreds if not thousands of dollars worth of Daemons, and those of us with now-invalid Death Guard, 1KSons, World Eater, Word Bearer, Iron Warrior, Night Lord, Emperor's Children, Alpha Legion and LatD armies - we're just a bunch of whiney asses.

To say that all of these armies are invalid is a gross over simplification.

DG, 1Ksons, World Eater, and Emperor's Children lists can easily be played.  They play different, but so be it. 

If you want to play your old style alpha legion, you have the option of taking three chosen units for infiltration and lots of your "worthless" daemons.  You did lose cultists, so I can understand some complaints here.

If you want to play Word Bearers - take standard "mark of glory" and tons of daemons.  Your thousands of dollars worth of daemons are not wasted.  They can still be played and they can still be effective.  You have essentially lost nothing with this army.  Again, they will play different, but so be it.

As for IW, you need to make a choice now on havocs vs oblits or a combination of both.  I would say that besides LatD, that IW lost the most as far as making all of their models carry over and still be playable.  Not that it is a bad thing, but still it would suck.

LatD did suffer the most and this one I agree with you that GW needs to include them somewhere. 

HAHHAHHAHHAHHAHHAH!!!  Daemons not wasted...priceless!!  Oh, you also forgot to mention that the Word Bearers lost a really great conversion with the Demagogue disappearing into the Warp...maybe he'll show up in 2008.

As far as Iron Warriors go, it's best not to dwell on that Legion.  IW was pretty much the only Chaos army that not only stayed true to the fluff, AND had great rules, and was a blast to play.  Now people who shelled out cash for the Basilisks and the Iron Warrior Warsmith (forgot about that one did ya? not that anyone really played it) are left praying that they can still use them when LaTD rolls around.

What GW should have done, to appease both the competitive tourney player and the player that loves the hobby/fluff/variety/etc is to create a Vanilla Chaos Codex (which is what we have now come September), and the real Codex (full of Daemons that actually do something, Legions, you know, what makes Chaos chaos).  At the tournaments, armies can then be restricted by codex.  Everyone who wants to play Chaos, must use the crappy vanilla chaos codex.  Everyone that wants to enjoy playing chaos uses the other Chaos codex, the one that doesn't suck and invalidate my entire army.

dienekes96, christ, people are unhappy! They're entitled to express a negative opinion on the damn product! I don't get these posts whining about whining. It's pointless!
I'm selling my chaos army, but i still want to be able to express my disappointment with the current direction GW are taking. It's a common human reaction!
I think what they are doing is BAD business, and I want to see them succeed, not least because I enjoy many of their other games!

I'm about 14 pages behind on this, but the comments that tournament play is forcing designers to take away options really ticked me off.

There is absolutely no reason why designers shouldn't be able to design a balanced codex that allows for a variety of different playable lists. The problem is the designers can't seem to see (after 'extensive playtesting') what is obvious to players after they have read the codex for the first time. Nids one of the easiest examples. They have a potentially huge variety of upgrades and abilities, that are all effectively moot thanks largely in part to the dakkafex. Even worse, its not like it was hard to spot, or to know how it should be designed. (or how blindingly obvious it is that most lists can't field enough firepower to cut through 7-8 monsterous creatures)

Eldar was worse. It was almost entirely removal of options. (much like the new chaos codex) And guess what, people still figured out the powerbuild for Eldar within 5 minutes of reading the Codex. (In fact, I think it was even more obvious than before what was and what was not good) Falcons and Harlequins were the new it. But this time, they removed many of the extra customizability options. Casual took a big hit, and any chance of a secondary tourney list (like Nid stealers) was thrown out the window in order to 'balance' what is now considered one of the top 3 tournament lists.

Chaos are more of the same. Removal of options and list diversity, with blindingly obvious choices for what is, and what isn't playable at a tournament setting.

Posted By Da Boss on 08/15/2007 6:36 AM
dienekes96, christ, people are unhappy! They're entitled to express a negative opinion on the damn product! I don't get these posts whining about whining. It's pointless!
I'm selling my chaos army, but i still want to be able to express my disappointment with the current direction GW are taking. It's a common human reaction!
I think what they are doing is BAD business, and I want to see them succeed, not least because I enjoy many of their other games!

It's not pointless.  Much as the whining posts makes those members feel happy, pointing out how moronic many of the hyperbolic comments are makes me feel happy.  So my "whine about whine" posts are exactly as useful as the countless "whine" posts themselves.

And by all means, folks should express their displeasure.  I even supported that.  But don't try and pretend they have been "conned" or that GW has wronged them.  That's where I call complete BS, and I'll continue to do so.

I agree it's bad business...just as I agree that a REAL LatD list would sell a bazillion models.

Posted By Yad on 08/15/2007 6:18 AM

HAHHAHHAHHAHHAHHAH!!!  Daemons not wasted...priceless!!  Oh, you also forgot to mention that the Word Bearers lost a really great conversion with the Demagogue disappearing into the Warp...maybe he'll show up in 2008.

As far as Iron Warriors go, it's best not to dwell on that Legion.  IW was pretty much the only Chaos army that not only stayed true to the fluff, AND had great rules, and was a blast to play.  Now people who shelled out cash for the Basilisks and the Iron Warrior Warsmith (forgot about that one did ya? not that anyone really played it) are left praying that they can still use them when LaTD rolls around.

What GW should have done, to appease both the competitive tourney player and the player that loves the hobby/fluff/variety/etc is to create a Vanilla Chaos Codex (which is what we have now come September), and the real Codex (full of Daemons that actually do something, Legions, you know, what makes Chaos chaos).  At the tournaments, armies can then be restricted by codex.  Everyone who wants to play Chaos, must use the crappy vanilla chaos codex.  Everyone that wants to enjoy playing chaos uses the other Chaos codex, the one that doesn't suck and invalidate my entire army.

The way I look at it, I have tons of daemons myself and plan on using all of them with my updated force.  If you consider them wasted, too bad.  I believe people will find that they will be very useful units in the game.  The character of each daemon type is lost for now.  However, I am willing to reserve judgement once Codex 'Daemonica' is released.

IW - the basilisk is an obvious loss.  Oh yeah - it must of slipped my mind.  Well not really mister smarty pants.  IW was a blast to play for the player that maxxed it out.  Now if you are on the other side of the table - not quite as much.  Very few IW players played that force with "friendly or real combinations".  Fluff my ARS.  I never saw the servo harness (whatever it is called) used in the regular troop units.  It seemed quite funny that all IW had speed DPs or lieutenants.  I would be willing to bet that 99% of the time the only fluff played was the power combinations.  

It does suck losing the ability to use certain models.  I have tons of guard models that I can not use from 1st ed and 2nd ed.  Robots, mole motors, thudd guns, rapier laser destroyers, assault guard with jump packs and many more.  Change happens.

Finally, to claim that your entire army is invalidated is BS.  I have plenty of chaos units (one for example being my 40+ hrs khorne biker lord) that is no where near as effective in the new rules.  I'm not crying about loss of my daemonic rune, 2+ armour, feel no pain, collar of khorne, PF/LC/Bike/Plasmagun, kitchen sink toten mo-fo.  Heck, I even had players asking judges not to play against that character in tournaments.  Am I crying that my army concept of two crazy characters is invalidated - no.  I will still use it either as a biker lord (just not as good) or a champion in my bike units. 

Posted By Inquisitor_Malice on 08/15/2007 7:48 AM

IW - the basilisk is an obvious loss.  Oh yeah - it must of slipped my mind.  Well not really mister smarty pants.  IW was a blast to play for the player that maxxed it out.  Now if you are on the other side of the table - not quite as much.  Very few IW players played that force with "friendly or real combinations".  Fluff my ARS.  I never saw the servo harness (whatever it is called) used in the regular troop units.  It seemed quite funny that all IW had speed DPs or lieutenants.  I would be willing to bet that 99% of the time the only fluff played was the power combinations.

You're quite right regarding Speed DPs and other such distasteful entries in the Iron Warriors list, but should not a well written new CSM codex limit these known failings in the list and not remove the option for servo arms and basilisks which were both fluffy and existing modes. Would you would agree that servo arms and a single basilisk are fluffy and not the cause of overpowering in the IW list.

IIRC the design principle for the Dark Angels codex, the one that was supposed to be a blueprint for all subsequent codices was that it should follow the current models and fluff, which leads me to think, why wasn't that the design principle for the Chaos SM codex?

The very foundation of this game of toy soldier game that we play is that if a model looks different (e.g. Bloodletters vs. Horrors, Space Marines vs. Terminators) then it has different rules (WYSIWYG) . Daemons of all kinds Warsmiths and Basilisks are all current and distinct models and therefore should have current and distinct rules.

Codex CSM fails to follow these two basic principles of codex writing and should therefore be considered a failure. It is no surprise to me that Gav Thorpe is behind this awful work.

How long did it take for Zilla nid armies to become popular? How long has the new dex been out? It took quite awhile for even the general tournament scene to start taking it seriously.

I may be mistaken, but I seem to remember that they have stated the next Chaos codex with the daemons of the big 4 will interact with C:SM, albeit in a limited way.

IIRC the basilisk was never released for the chaos army. All of the daemon models can be used in the new codex no matter what they are. Are you telling me that a veteran marine model cannot be used as a tactical marine because it looks different (cool details), or that I cannot use my Belakor model as a daemon prince because it doesn't look like a big space marine?? As for the questions of not following fluff did they not give you access to 1000 sons, Beserkers of Korn, Noise Marines, and Plague Marines??

How did they fail to use the 2 design principles that you have stated. You could have stated they did not use them in the way you would have and this would have been a factual statement, however your statement was an opinion not fact.

I agree with you George with the exception of using all current models.  The problem with the DA codex is that it covered one very specific army within the space marine group.  The overall possibilities for the chaos codex are 10x more, which I believe is better in separate codices.    Here's the way that I look at it.

1.  My belief is that the daemon codex will take care of the daemon issues that people currently have.  I know we will have to wait, but that is just something that we have to deal with in the short term.

2.  There is potential for the legion specific rules to be reintroduced again.  I could easily see this in another release.  Rumors do not have it on the near term radar.  However, there is a lot of potential here that I believe GW will not pass up.  Then again, I could be wrong.

3.  I do not believe GW fully goes with the using all existing models policy.  For the guys that had black templar whirlwinds or BA with 4+ terminator assualt cannons or seer councils (10+), a lot of these models can not be used in standard forces.  Losing a model completely is going to happen.  I do feel for anyone who has this happen.