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Whoah, can you explain the laslance pikemen idea a bit j? I'd love to convert a few of my men-at-arms that way since I'm already working on 'em.

Spoiler:
The Jokers-an IG unit- had your standard lasguns. However they also had a front rank of pikemen to repel the good guys. The laspikes were 30 ft. long telescoping gravimetrically sheathed pikes with gravimetric counterweights in back. The spearhead itself glowed and was described in simlar manner to a power weapon (light sabre actually). Im thinking it could be modelled as a laser scalpel head.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:So is the 60%+ in favor of a new codex a sign that we have strong faith in the current design team, or a lingering hatred of the current codex's flaws?

No, I don't think so.

I think it has more to do with wanting newr models, as stated a few time sin this thread.

In fact, the ones that wanted new models said they wanted the old codex, but if a new codex was what it took to get new models, then so be it.

Personally, I would be all for a new IG codex if I played them, just to get new models and use the old rules.

GW doesn't really care what frickin' rules you use, so long as you buy models.

open_sketchbook wrote:Guardsmen should have BS4 when firing lasguns.

Nope. The standard infantryman in the guard army is just a grunt. Some dude that was drafted, volunteered, or press-ganged into service. Each guy is just one guy out of millions exactly like him. BS3 is the basic, 50-50, run-of-the-mill BS. They should not have a 4. BS4 is more like a sharpshooter. A rifleman that is better than the norm. Every gruardsman can shoot as straight and easily as an enhanced Space Marine? Not a chance.
Now, elites should have BS4. Possibly even HQ retinues.

Personally, I think that merely adding AP5 to the lasgun and dropping the points per man to 5 would be a big, yet subtle, upgrade that would go a long way to helping the poor guardsman.



Ghidorah

When everything is AP5, AP kind of starts to lose its meaning.

S3 AP- is fine for the Lasgun.

Now the the real problem weapon is the Hotshot Lasgun / Hellgun - should be S4!

The current IG codex has ended up producing the exact same type of lists as every other codex built around sublists and glue-on options. There’s a wide variety of possible lists to build, around half of which are utterly terrible and never see the light of day, while the other half are almost entirely one dimensional and not fun.

For all the options listed in the book, all I ever see on the field is drop troops armies from hell, static tank armies and static infantry armies.

It’s an inevitable problem with the idea of building a basic list, then adding a range of glue on options at the back to alter that list. Incorporating variety into the basic list and unit options reduces this problem considerably, at the expense of superficial variety.

A new list could easily produce more diverse armies without doctrines. Just improve the rubbish units like ogryns and ratlings, and do whatever it takes to make a basic guardsman a genuinely worthwhile troop. For all the intense study and furrowed brows you see around this place, it seems no-ones noticed the efforts made to make basic troops really useful. CSM are excellent troops who are now capable of delivering brutal close range fire and have two attacks in close combat. Ork boyz have better guns than they used to and cost 1/3 as much. People take troops as the backbone of their army becuase troops are good, not just to access another heavy weapon or because there's a minimum two units to be taken.

A similar approach to the guard would improve their army massively. The only question is how... five points a model is a start but something else is needed.

Tetchy wrote:The old IG codex is only broken because in the crazy mixed-up world of 40k if you bring a knife to a gunfight, you win!

The problem is not the IG codex, it is the fact that in 4th ed (don't have a clue with 5th, frankly I'll wait until its out and see what happens before I can be bothered to think about it) standing and shooting makes for a boring game (which is the fault of the rules, there are many other games in which standing and shooting makes for an interesting game), so the rules encourage "close combat". Therefore armies that suck at close combat aren't "competitive" and therefore are only played by those who prefer an uphill struggle.

The obvious "quick fix" would be to make IG tanks less vulnerable to close combat - the whole idea of a demon snipping one open with its crab claws is just ridunkulous to me...

Of course somehow that would have to be fiddles so that it didn't make non-IG tanks stupidly good so, it probably won't work in the meta game.

Not really. Most games you see a mix of ranged shooting, close quarters shooting and assault. The move from 3rd to 4th can be almost entirely explained in the increase in mobility of certain units and in close range gunfights, which never existed previously.

There certainly are mad rushes into assault, but with 4th ed seeing the emergence of armies dominated by skimmers, lists built entirely around melee have become a lot less common.

The other time it occurs is when you’re facing armies that are really, utterly terrible in melee, basically Tau and IG. Even then an IG unit with a powerfist can represent a decent disincentive to assault, and given the IG tendency to melt like butter against rapid fired small arms, even then you’re often better off just shooting the little buggers.

JohnHwangDD wrote:When everything is AP5, AP kind of starts to lose its meaning.

S3 AP- is fine for the Lasgun.

Now the the real problem weapon is the Hotshot Lasgun / Hellgun - should be S4!

or a lower AP to represent its superior armor penetration (referencing gaunt ghost novels)

sebster wrote:A similar approach to the guard would improve their army massively. The only question is how... five points a model is a start but something else is needed.

jfrazell wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:S3 AP- is fine for the Lasgun.

Now the the real problem weapon is the Hotshot Lasgun / Hellgun - should be S4!

or a lower AP to represent its superior armor penetration (referencing gaunt ghost novels)

Better Hellgun AP would be icing on the cake. But from a tactical standpoint, Stormtroopers need to be S4. They operate alone and often in the enemy's face. Being able to Glance AV10 dramatically increases their overall basic utility. Suddenly, they can drop light vehicles (e.g Landspeeders & Vypers) with their Hellguns, or attack the light Rear armour. And S4 will wound more often, which will be useful against MEQs that would get a save anyways.

Sure you could give them better AP, but from a practical standpoint, if they're not AP2 or AP3, it doesn't matter. Sv5+ (and worse) fail often enough for AP5 to be unnecessary. Sv4+ isn't common enough for AP4 to be worth any premium. So if you make them S3 AP3, it'll be like Banshees. Nothing wrong with that, but they'll need something else to crack any Transports before they can do much, and that pretty much leaves them where they are.

Guardsmen, OTOH, should stay S3 AP- because it defines the lower limit of weapon utility in the game. It's the most common weapon in the universe, so shouldn't be anything other than totally basic.

As I've said before, Guardsmen are probably worth 4 or 5 pts. They'd be worth 5 pts if Vox and/or Sergeant were bundled into the unit prices so that they didn't automatically run from anything that says "Boo!".

I could go with S 4 as well. There's nothing positing that a boltgun is the only thing thats S 4 in the Imperium.

Or just some way to make guard more shooty. Something that allows them to fire twice if standing still... or an 18" or 24" assault 1 or 2 lasgun. Supposedly gaurd are suppose to be able to defeat their enemies with massed fire, but because of space and cost, you can't really bring that much firepower to bear. Just allowing a lot more shots somehow would mitigate this, but still allow higher toughness and armour save units to weather the storm without fearing it outright. Str 4 would cause a lot more fear than 2 str 3 shots.

Give me Assault 2 (24") lasguns, and I would be ecstatic. Or some sort of platoon "volley fire" rule.

At present, Toreador has the right of it - you need true volume of fire to make lasguns useful, but you can't pack closely enough together to get it, or a single assault unit will wipe you off the board. There is no Guard equivalent of "Fish of Fury," where you can mass at rapid-fire range, but be safe from 12" assault troops.

Thats an interesting idea Janthkin. A2 (24") lasguns. Still not powerful but makes them the shooters they are in fluff and makes them different from other troops without breaking rules.
*Allows troops to move and fire.
*Better range than guardians, balanced by guardian S 4 weaponry.
*Effectively equal to bolters and firewarrior rifles at range, but less effective at short range-making them the range shooters of the game.

Add in an S4 special weapon heavy stubber and your average squad is putting some serious fire downrange, but keeps them vulnerabel in the short range to pretty much everything else in the game.

I'd take 36" (18" rapid-fire) almost as happily, if they wanted to better preserve the lasrifle.

Or give me a Fantasy-like multishot rule: 1 shot as normal, or 2x shots at -1 to hit (1 on 4, or 2 on 5's). But that would involve math....

I dunno, guys, these are Lasguns, not souped-up Eldar-style Lasblasters. Guard are cheap and plentiful, but they are just Men, so they need their upgrades to be effective. In 40k, those are their Heavy and Special Weapons, along with their Tanks.

Men who can shoot over 600 meters with accurate fire (Legion).

JHDD you espouse troops and their tactical strength. yet you pooh pooh any real difference by stating they should be using tanks and heavy weapons (which I might add cost more than marine weapons).

While it won't be carried through its an interesting option. It separates them from other troop choices without being overpowering. Marines and eldar are masters of short range fire in fluff and gaming. Tau are good medium and long range shooters. This put guardsmen on the same pedestal-not by the strength of the weapons, but a very fluffy weight of lasgun firepower.

I think that a variety of Troops Platoons with good options will make Guard competitive. Especially if the scoring rule is to the last man. Lots of Guard Platoons will do just fine.

I don't think that the Lasgun-toting Guardsman is anything to celebrate. I think he mostly exists to define the minimum standard for regular combat forces in the 40k universe.

The Ballad of Rodger Young

No, they've got no time for glory in the Infantry.
No, they've got no use for praises loudly sung,
But in every soldier's heart in all the Infantry
Shines the name, shines the name of Rodger Young.

Shines the name--Rodger Young!
Fought and died for the men he marched among.
To the everlasting glory of the Infantry
Lives the story of Private Rodger Young.

Caught in ambush lay a company of riflemen--
Just grenades against machine guns in the gloom--
Caught in ambush till this one of twenty riflemen
Volunteered, volunteered to meet his doom.

Volunteered, Rodger Young!
Fought and died for the men he marched among.
In the everlasting annals of the Infantry
Glows the last deed of Private Rodger Young.

It was he who drew the fire of the enemy
That a company of men might live to fight;
And before the deadly fire of the enemy
Stood the man, stood the man we hail tonight.

On the island of New Georgia in the Solomons,
Stands a simple wooden cross alone to tell
That beneath the silent coral of the Solomons,
Sleeps a man, sleeps a man remembered well.

Sleeps a man, Rodger Young,
Fought and died for the men he marched among.
In the everlasting spirit of the Infantry
Breathes the spirit of Private Rodger Young.

No, they've got no time for glory in the Infantry,
No, they've got no use for praises loudly sung,
But in every soldier's heart in all the Infantry
Shines the name, shines the name of Rodger Young.

Shines the name--Rodger Young!
Fought and died for the men he marched among.
To the everlasting glory of the Infantry
Lives the story of Private Rodger Young.

I don't think that with the current rumours of 5th edtion guard will be anything but an easy win for every army out there right now.

Nothing about guard right now strikes me as being worth fielding without it being picked up again 1 turn later as destroyed.

I think this thread is best served by not entertaining thoughts of lasguns with 36” range, A2 or St 4. There’s throwing ideas out there and there’s completely ignoring the point of a unit.

A guardsman is defined by his basic ability. He’s a human grunt in a world of ancient monsters. Giving him a rifle that outranges the Tau, or the ability to put out as many shots at the same range as a storm bolter is completely missing the point.

If you want the guard to work like the fluff… guard die like nothing else, but characters hold the army together. Make the average guardsman 5 points, and then make officers, commissars, monks, psykers, enginseers and all the other weird and wonderful characters really worth taking. Give them abilities that improve units meaningfully.

In the fluff there is two kinds of IG elites and cannon fodder. I hope they give us sometime to improve the basic guardsmen, so you can play elites not just the ran of the mill grunt p.s.@Janthkin good song

sebster wrote:I think this thread is best served by not entertaining thoughts of lasguns with 36” range, A2 or St 4. There’s throwing ideas out there and there’s completely ignoring the point of a unit.

A guardsman is defined by his basic ability. He’s a human grunt in a world of ancient monsters. Giving him a rifle that outranges the Tau, or the ability to put out as many shots at the same range as a storm bolter is completely missing the point.

If you want the guard to work like the fluff… guard die like nothing else, but characters hold the army together. Make the average guardsman 5 points, and then make officers, commissars, monks, psykers, enginseers and all the other weird and wonderful characters really worth taking. Give them abilities that improve units meaningfully.

I disagree.

While guard do need more support for the plebes from their character types in the form of officers and such, I do think that changing how they work do have merit.

assault 2 24" str3 ap- lasguns would be an excellent addition.

Why?

Because it allows the volume of low strength fire that guard are supposed to be known for. They are an attrition army, and that proposed lasgun states very well represents that. it also gives the guardsmen to have the option of assaulting, making for a more tactical game as opposed to static gunlines of boredom.

I love the IG army, but I really hate the way they are currently played by most. Predictable doesn't even begin to describe them.

Even if someone somehow figures out how to easily break Janthkin's proposal, it is atleast worth noting as a trial rule for playtesting instead of dismissing it out of hand.

skullspliter888 wrote:In the fluff there is two kinds of IG elites and cannon fodder.

Yes. Veterans and Platoons.

Hellfury wrote:assault 2 24" str3 ap- lasguns would be an excellent addition.

I disagree. That is what the Eldar Guardian Lasblaster should be.

The Imperial Guardian should be saddled with what is clearly and unquestionably the worst weapon in game, and that should be a 24" S3 AP- Rapid-Fire gun. If nobody has the worst gun, then it makes it hard to show how much of an improvement a Hellgun, Splinter Rifle, or Lasblaster might be. Much less a Bolter, Shuricat, or Tau rifle. Basic Guardsmen need to suck. That's the point.

That also means that basic Guardmen need to be cheap, which is why 5 pts is the maximum they can cost, and 4 pts makes even more sense.

Nah. Grots should have the worst weapon in the game!

Hellfury wrote:I disagree.

While guard do need more support for the plebes from their character types in the form of officers and such, I do think that changing how they work do have merit.

assault 2 24" str3 ap- lasguns would be an excellent addition.

Why?

Because it allows the volume of low strength fire that guard are supposed to be known for. They are an attrition army, and that proposed lasgun states very well represents that. it also gives the guardsmen to have the option of assaulting, making for a more tactical game as opposed to static gunlines of boredom.

I love the IG army, but I really hate the way they are currently played by most. Predictable doesn't even begin to describe them.

Even if someone somehow figures out how to easily break Janthkin's proposal, it is atleast worth noting as a trial rule for playtesting instead of dismissing it out of hand.

There might be an argument to make rapid fire weapons capable of firing one shot out to 24” even if they moved, as that would make all tactical troops a little more mobile. But I’d have to see that in play a lot before I half considered it.

But there is just no reason to make this change to one single troop choice, particularly one defined by the basic nature of its equipment? And to make it even better, by giving IG double taps out to 24”? No.

I agree that the Imperial Guard need changes. But people kept arguing that the orks needed to be made zany or kept the same but given fleet. Turns out the answer to the ork problem was not found by adding a superficial kludge that damages the style of the army. Similarly, fixing the IG problem won’t come from giving them mobile or stronger lasguns.

I think the answer is in making the IG something genuinely unique. Making them an army about heroism and exceptional deeds. If, at the end of every game you know you sent out troops that were weaker and undergunned than the genetically engineered supermen or ancient race they faced… but came out triumphant because they were inspired to great deeds by highly disciplined officers and religious fanatics?

That’d be an exciting army.

What I'd like to see in the new IG Codex:

5pt Guardsmen

Advisors that don't suck

Non-IC Commanders

T5 Ogryns with FNP and Str5 AP5 Ripper Guns

Ratlings replaced by a Vindicare-style sniper team

Assault 2 Hellguns

COD and Sharpshooters (Lasguns only) as integrated rules for Guardsmen and Conscripts

A multipurpose light tank like the Hellhound, but with the option of taking a Turret Autocannon or TL Lascannon or something.

FOC-Modifying Commanders a la DA and Orks Codexes. If I take Carapace Armor for my Schola Progenium Officer, I can take Storm Troopers as Troops, for example.

* * * * *

Despite the fact that the new Codexes are dumbed down and much blander compared to 2nd and 3rd Edition codexes (even 4th, though it was getting pretty dry by then), the direction they're taking with the streamlining and paring down of units is IMHO, a good one to take. The new codexes written with 5th in mind all pair up pretty well, I think, while retaining a reasonable list of options and diversity.

Yes, I'm very worried that I'm going to have to radically rethink my army once the Imperial Guard become massively standardized and straight-jacketed, but that's something I'm willing to do if it means I can compete with other builds without having to rely on 3 Russes and a huge contingent of Drop Troops to do so.

CK

JohnHwangDD wrote:

skullspliter888 wrote:In the fluff there is two kinds of IG elites and cannon fodder.

Yes. Veterans and Platoons.

Hellfury wrote:assault 2 24" str3 ap- lasguns would be an excellent addition.

I disagree. That is what the Eldar Guardian Lasblaster should be.

The Imperial Guardian should be saddled with what is clearly and unquestionably the worst weapon in game, and that should be a 24" S3 AP- Rapid-Fire gun. If nobody has the worst gun, then it makes it hard to show how much of an improvement a Hellgun, Splinter Rifle, or Lasblaster might be. Much less a Bolter, Shuricat, or Tau rifle. Basic Guardsmen need to suck. That's the point.

Great point. So guardsmen just need to suck? Thats all they get? Just reduce the point cost and call it a day?

Boy, I cant wait for that exciting version of the IG codex. I think I just shat my pants in quivering anticipation.

While I agree with you on some level, there has to be more than "I just stand here waiting to die really, thats my job. A placeholder until the spaz marines get here". Giving guardsmen a billion heavy weapons may be effective, but the snoozfest that will ensue will make many IG players happy, I am certain. Want to win a game? Bore your opponent to death. Interrupt his death throes with the grating noise the bucket of dice you roll make.

That my friends, is TACTICS!

I really hate to not offer a better solution than the one I am criticizing, but I honestly think that the simple cost reduction doesn't trump a more drastic and, frankly, interesting proposal that Janthkin made.

@sebster:
Its funny how you mention fixing orks.
They gave them double tapping assault shootas, AND lowered the cost.

But I do agree with how IG should be made more unique. Though I am sure the counter argument to that will be from someone quoting the military disdain for unique butterflies.

Hellfury wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

skullspliter888 wrote:In the fluff there is two kinds of IG elites and cannon fodder.

Yes. Veterans and Platoons.

Hellfury wrote:assault 2 24" str3 ap- lasguns would be an excellent addition.

I disagree. That is what the Eldar Guardian Lasblaster should be.

The Imperial Guardian should be saddled with what is clearly and unquestionably the worst weapon in game, and that should be a 24" S3 AP- Rapid-Fire gun. If nobody has the worst gun, then it makes it hard to show how much of an improvement a Hellgun, Splinter Rifle, or Lasblaster might be. Much less a Bolter, Shuricat, or Tau rifle. Basic Guardsmen need to suck. That's the point.

Great point. So guardsmen just need to suck? Thats all they get? Just reduce the point cost and call it a day?

Boy, I cant wait for that exciting version of the IG codex. I think I just shat my pants in quivering anticipation.

While I agree with you on some level, there has to be more than "I just stand here waiting to die really, thats my job. A placeholder until the spaz marines get here". Giving guardsmen a billion heavy weapons may be effective, but the snoozfest that will ensue will make many IG players happy, I am certain. Want to win a game? Bore your opponent to death. Interrupt his death throes with the grating noise the bucket of dice you roll make.

That my friends, is TACTICS!

I really hate to not offer a better solution than the one I am criticizing, but I honestly think that the simple cost reduction doesn't trump a more drastic and, frankly, interesting proposal that Janthkin made.

@sebster:
Its funny how you mention fixing orks.
They gave them double tapping assault shootas, AND lowered the cost.

But I do agree with how IG should be made more unique. Though I am sure the counter argument to that will be from someone quoting the military disdain for unique butterflies.

Exactly. Fluffwise one aspect of the guard is overwhelming grunt firepower, not massed heavy weapons (referencing Gaunt, 15 hours, Legion). Its literally the death of a thousand flashlights that does the damage.

Making the guard the red headed step child of all lists so that everyone has someone to beat on when they've had a bad day is exactly NOT the way to make a list. Its not good for GW (no sales), its not good for IG players (when you can find them), and its not good for the game as a whole.

You already have V5 modification which essentially turns your vehicles into pillboxes (ah less than fond memories of V3), and massivley nerfs chimeras. Removing options for deepstrike/reserve/heavy infantry etc. will just leave you with the bad stereotype of sit all day and shoot IG. Frankly I shifted to shooty mech eldar so I could maneuver and avoid that boredom. Its just meh.

Sorry, but just lowering the points cost of a Guardsman
makes them sound like a goon squad rather than something
interesting or with character.

Maybe they can have some kind of true combined fire rules
that allow multiple squads to combine shots for special
benefits or something (ala Markerlights and fire prisms).

jfrazell wrote:Fluffwise one aspect of the guard is overwhelming grunt firepower, not massed heavy weapons (referencing Gaunt, 15 hours, Legion). Its literally the death of a thousand flashlights that does the damage.

5th edition, if the rumors are true, would make that even more difficult to acheive then it is now. Not being able to shoot through your own squads makes it even more difficult for lots of guard squads to support each other, and the more they are bunched together, the more vulnerable they are to consolidation. At least in the current edition you could deploy two or three squads deep. In 5th edition, those rear squads would have nothing to do or shoot at.
So, even if they lowered the points, you'd still not be able to combine the firepower of more then a couple of squads in any given area.
Making matters worse, attacking armies can effectively screen, because they'd rather run then shoot anyway, allowing them to force you to shoot as their meat shield as they advance.

It just seems that all the game mechanics work against the guard when they fight as massed infantry, which is bizzare considering that is their fluff. On top of that, their basic infantry is horribly overcosted, as has been stated.

I like the idea of a str 4 hellgun. Personally, for any army I build there's either AP3 or nothing. Why bother with AP4 or AP5 or AP6 with 80% of the armies you play against have a 3+ save? So, I rarely take a gun based on it's AP, I take it for it's str, because the higher that is, the more wounds I can cause and the more potential for the other guy to fail a couple. On that note, I'll take a gun that's assault 2 over AP-whatever because more hits = more wounds = more armor saves to fail. I wouldn't mind seeing the lasgun get assault 2, but I doubt it would happen. they want the lasgun to be the wimpiest because they want you to add more men to increase your firepower because when you do that, they sell more plastic people. Why do you think they keep saying in 5th edition the troops get better? because more troops = buy more models. However I do agree with what they say, that's how an army should be. The troops should be the backbone of the army, other things should enhance said backbone. One problem I had when I first started my army was the tanks were just so cool that I had to add a lot, so I have a lot more tanks and only the bare minimum for troops, but I hope to change that soon.

I'd like to see new rough rider models that aren't mongolians, on horses if they look as good as the FW ones, or bikes if not. I'd also like to see "ratling snipers" go away and just get replaced with normal snipers.. why do the guard need halflings?