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Orks only got that set with their new dex. There's no reason to think IG necessarily wouldn't get an equivalent bargain.

You're the one who raised the issue of cost as a reason for a points reduction being undesirable. I'm engaging you in kind.

It will be interesting to see which way GW goes if they make a new set. Itl be more intresting if they make greatcoat guard .

just looking at the Army lists section of dakka there seems to be more interest regarding guard. So maybe their sales are going up.

on the subject of a points drop id like to see it if their was more room to maneuver with those points, not just cramming in a few more squads.

HBMCs suggestions are excellent particularly the new platoon structure and special rules such as the medics

glowgos wrote:so while what you say is awesome it means you'd have to spend a considerable more amount on already a expensive army.

Maybe including advanced training into the points be interesting like 6 point BS 4 guard?

I own something like 4000 pts of Guard, so I wouldn't have to spend another penny. Instead I would be able to field more of the stuff that I already own. That sounds like WIN to me.

Not interested. Guard aren't worth 6 pts, and they don't need or deserve BS4. They are fodder. Dog soldiers. Faceless grunts. Meatsacks. Guard should be dirt cheap and plentiful at 4-5 pts per model.

The Guard are the Imperium's main professional military force, trained and equipped with some of the best weapons in His Galaxy.

And they're BS3.

If they weren't trained, they'd be BS2, just like conscripts are. So this is one of those times where Jonny Boy and myself will agree - Guard are so good at what they're do that they're given BS3. Only the truly 'special forces' types in the Guard (Stormies, H-Vets) gain the same level skills as Marines, who are BS4.

BYE

Hellfury wrote:@sebster:
Its funny how you mention fixing orks.
They gave them double tapping assault shootas, AND lowered the cost.

But I do agree with how IG should be made more unique. Though I am sure the counter argument to that will be from someone quoting the military disdain for unique butterflies.

Sorry for the late reply…

Yeah, that was the solution for the orks. Give their shooting units a decent amount of firepower at medium range, and allow them to run forward while doing it. The point is, people wanted fleet, or BS 3 or a range of other benefits that would make the army competitive, while ignoring the basic character of the army.

The basic character of the guard army is a wall of plain old humans. They’re simply outclassed in the insane world of 40K and anything that makes the basic trooper the equal of his enemies is missing the point. Meanwhile maintaining the current viable list, static units filled with heavy and special weapons, will only continue to make guard boring to play with and against. It sounds like quite the conundrum until you think about what’s really happening in all that 40K fluff... those troops really are outclassed but they win anyway. They win because awesome heroes do just the right thing at just the right time to swing battles.

Fix the special characters, get commissars, monks, enginseers, psykers and all the rest some really useful, game changing abilities. Abilities that allow them to turn mediocre guard units into deadly opponents, if only for the critical turn. Abilities that let a guard unit heroically auto-pass a moral check, allowing nearby units to escape and prevent the collapse of an entire flank.

That to me, is really the core of the IG, and sounds like the best way to make them a really cool army to play.

Janthkin wrote:

Yeah, but IG already got Plasma bumped for their current Codex. You can't charge the same 15 pts for Plasma on a BS3 Sv5+ model as on a BS4 Sv3+.

But you can charge 10 pts for a BS3 Heavy Bolter, and only 5 for a BS4 one?

Sure you can, depending on the squad the weapon is placed in. If it's a 50 or 60 point guard unit, 10 points is more than reasonable. If itis a (minimum) 75 point unit, and more likely to be somewhere between 90 and 150 points, then the heavy weapon that suddenly makes that squad a stationary unit should be a lot cheaper.

Ultimately, you have to look at how a whole list functions, not just compare the points cost of individual heavy weapons, or the

sebster wrote:

Janthkin wrote:

Yeah, but IG already got Plasma bumped for their current Codex. You can't charge the same 15 pts for Plasma on a BS3 Sv5+ model as on a BS4 Sv3+.

But you can charge 10 pts for a BS3 Heavy Bolter, and only 5 for a BS4 one?

Sure you can, depending on the squad the weapon is placed in. If it's a 50 or 60 point guard unit, 10 points is more than reasonable. If itis a (minimum) 75 point unit, and more likely to be somewhere between 90 and 150 points, then the heavy weapon that suddenly makes that squad a stationary unit should be a lot cheaper.

Ultimately, you have to look at how a whole list functions, not just compare the points cost of individual heavy weapons, or the

Given that the troops are less accurate, more likely to flee, are just as stationary as marine units firing it, easier to kill, can't fight for crap in CC, and pass less target priority tests as well? don't forget the fact that the basic guardsmen is also univerally acknowledged as overcosted as well.

Also keep in mind that many Marine armies field just as many heavy weapons as many guard armies do. Hell, with the current vanilla marine codex you can slap in 26 heavy weapons (twelve infilitrating or tank hunting) on 80 marines with a power weapon Master to give them all Ld10.

Vaktathi wrote:Given that the troops are less accurate, more likely to flee, are just as stationary as marine units firing it, easier to kill, can't fight for crap in CC, and pass less target priority tests as well? don't forget the fact that the basic guardsmen is also univerally acknowledged as overcosted as well.

Also keep in mind that many Marine armies field just as many heavy weapons as many guard armies do. Hell, with the current vanilla marine codex you can slap in 26 heavy weapons (twelve infilitrating or tank hunting) on 80 marines with a power weapon Master to give them all Ld10.

When this conversation is in regards to a future IG codex, which will be released after a revised marine codex, the weaknesses of the current guard codex relative to the current marine codex couldn't be less relevant.

Yeah, the current IG codex is pretty weak but that has nothing to do with your question or my reply. You asked if you can charge more points for a weapon upgrade in one army than in another army with a higher BS... and the answer is yes, you can. The points cost of a weapon depends on the base price of the squad, the abilities of each squad and the abilities they're giving up to use the weapon, the role of each squad in their respective armies, the necessity of the weapon in each army and the desired proliferation of the weapon in each army.

So in terms of a new IG codex, it would depend on the base price of guardsman (if they stay at 6 points there better be a discount on heavy weapons, but if they're cut to 4 or 5 points then the heavy weapons should stay about the same).

I think we desparatly need a new codex. The current list is so weak. Everyone seems so swear by this mech army, which I think is lame. With the new rules coming out that will be nerfed horribly. There are so many units
(Advisors, ogryn, rats, RR, chimeras, HW's, storm troopers, IC) that need to be redone.

sebster wrote:

Janthkin wrote:

Yeah, but IG already got Plasma bumped for their current Codex. You can't charge the same 15 pts for Plasma on a BS3 Sv5+ model as on a BS4 Sv3+.

But you can charge 10 pts for a BS3 Heavy Bolter, and only 5 for a BS4 one?

Sure you can, depending on the squad the weapon is placed in. If it's a 50 or 60 point guard unit, 10 points is more than reasonable. If itis a (minimum) 75 point unit, and more likely to be somewhere between 90 and 150 points, then the heavy weapon that suddenly makes that squad a stationary unit should be a lot cheaper.

Ultimately, you have to look at how a whole list functions, not just compare the points cost of individual heavy weapons, or the

2 things:

1) Context. Go read the post I was responding to, and see the assertion that GW would never charge 15 pts for a BS3 plasma gun, when a BS4 one for marines is only 10. My only point (excuse the pun) is that GW rarely feels constrained in pricing items by what other armies pay for them.

2) The role played by a shooty marine squad and a shooty Guard squad is identical - stand still and fire the big guns. As it happens, under the current rules, Marines are both better at the task (more hits/point) and more survivable by far while they are doing it. This is a design problem that GW should understand and address in creating a new Guard codex.

smart_alex, without going into the truth of such claims, isn't the current received wisdom that (in 4th) infantry-heavy las/plas spam is the strongest list? I don't see a whole lot of mech lists posted.

sebster wrote:The basic character of the guard army is a wall of plain old humans. They’re simply outclassed in the insane world of 40K and anything that makes the basic trooper the equal of his enemies is missing the point. Meanwhile maintaining the current viable list, static units filled with heavy and special weapons, will only continue to make guard boring to play with and against. It sounds like quite the conundrum until you think about what’s really happening in all that 40K fluff... those troops really are outclassed but they win anyway. They win because awesome heroes do just the right thing at just the right time to swing battles.

Fix the special characters, get commissars, monks, enginseers, psykers and all the rest some really useful, game changing abilities. Abilities that allow them to turn mediocre guard units into deadly opponents, if only for the critical turn. Abilities that let a guard unit heroically auto-pass a moral check, allowing nearby units to escape and prevent the collapse of an entire flank.

That to me, is really the core of the IG, and sounds like the best way to make them a really cool army to play.

This isn't a bad idea per se, but is hard to implement rules-wise. I suggest that Vox be made "FREE", and that Commissars / Priests / Standards confer Fearless. That means that the Guard will be more likely to stand and fight to the last man, no running.

But really, a static wall of Guard still won't win in the new environment of mobility and objectives. At a minimum, Guard need much cheaper and more survivable Transports - Chimeras for around 50 points with AV11+ on the sides. Supplement that with non-overpriced Valkyrie Transports providing taxi service, and the Guard might do OK. Otherwise, the Guard won't have sufficient mobility to take objectives.

Of course, Guard mobility is rather fragile, or else overpriced due to being overgunned for the role, so the other overpriced parts of the list need to come down in cost to allow for an adequate overall force.

sebster wrote:

Janthkin wrote:

Yeah, but IG already got Plasma bumped for their current Codex. You can't charge the same 15 pts for Plasma on a BS3 Sv5+ model as on a BS4 Sv3+.

But you can charge 10 pts for a BS3 Heavy Bolter, and only 5 for a BS4 one?

Sure you can, depending on the squad the weapon is placed in. ...

Ultimately, you have to look at how a whole list functions, not just compare the points cost of individual heavy weapons, or the

Note that this was demonstrated to be an apples-and-oranges points cost comparison between low 4th edition SM points vs expected 5th edition IG points. If the points are to be compared fairly, 5th edition DA / BA / (pending) SM points costs must instead be used. In this case, SM always pay 15 pts for Plasma Guns, which is fair when you compare against how IG had their Plasma costs bumped to 10 pts in their most recent Codex.

Janthkin wrote:2 things:

1) Context. Go read the post I was responding to, and see the assertion that GW would never charge 15 pts for a BS3 plasma gun, when a BS4 one for marines is only 10. My only point (excuse the pun) is that GW rarely feels constrained in pricing items by what other armies pay for them.

2) The role played by a shooty marine squad and a shooty Guard squad is identical - stand still and fire the big guns. As it happens, under the current rules, Marines are both better at the task (more hits/point) and more survivable by far while they are doing it. This is a design problem that GW should understand and address in creating a new Guard codex.

Yeah, that’s right, GW doesn’t feel constrained by the pricing of upgrades in different units. Nor should they. There’s so much that goes into pricing a unit and an upgrade that direct comparisons between armies are completely useless.

And yeah, IG and marine las/plas serve the same basic purpose, but the cost structure to get there is very different. And yeah, the marines are currently the better option by a long way, but that’s got a whole lot more to do with the standard guardsman being overpriced and most of the upgrades being somewhere between marginally useful and utter drek. Looked at in the context of a new codex you have to let that assumption go, because a codex that doesn’t fix that fundamental problem isn’t worth talking about.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

sebster wrote:The basic character of the guard army is a wall of plain old humans. They’re simply outclassed in the insane world of 40K and anything that makes the basic trooper the equal of his enemies is missing the point. Meanwhile maintaining the current viable list, static units filled with heavy and special weapons, will only continue to make guard boring to play with and against. It sounds like quite the conundrum until you think about what’s really happening in all that 40K fluff... those troops really are outclassed but they win anyway. They win because awesome heroes do just the right thing at just the right time to swing battles.

Fix the special characters, get commissars, monks, enginseers, psykers and all the rest some really useful, game changing abilities. Abilities that allow them to turn mediocre guard units into deadly opponents, if only for the critical turn. Abilities that let a guard unit heroically auto-pass a moral check, allowing nearby units to escape and prevent the collapse of an entire flank.

That to me, is really the core of the IG, and sounds like the best way to make them a really cool army to play.

This isn't a bad idea per se, but is hard to implement rules-wise. I suggest that Vox be made "FREE", and that Commissars / Priests / Standards confer Fearless. That means that the Guard will be more likely to stand and fight to the last man, no running.

But really, a static wall of Guard still won't win in the new environment of mobility and objectives. At a minimum, Guard need much cheaper and more survivable Transports - Chimeras for around 50 points with AV11+ on the sides. Supplement that with non-overpriced Valkyrie Transports providing taxi service, and the Guard might do OK. Otherwise, the Guard won't have sufficient mobility to take objectives.

Of course, Guard mobility is rather fragile, or else overpriced due to being overgunned for the role, so the other overpriced parts of the list need to come down in cost to allow for an adequate overall force.

And it’s a good thing that stand and shoot guard is going the way of the dodo. It was really boring.

But the replacement army will be a tough thing to create, whether you build it around enhanced advisors, or better transport vehicles, or whatever. With my solution the risk is that you’ll produce an army of a million special rules, and create a new game based around the use of special abilities. With your suggestion there’s a risk that guard will fail to be properly differentiated from all the other mechanised armies going around.

Ultimately I think a lot needs to be done to bring the codex up to speed, and it is probably the hardest design challenge out there.

Note that this was demonstrated to be an apples-and-oranges points cost comparison between low 4th edition SM points vs expected 5th edition IG points. If the points are to be compared fairly, 5th edition DA / BA / (pending) SM points costs must instead be used. In this case, SM always pay 15 pts for Plasma Guns, which is fair when you compare against how IG had their Plasma costs bumped to 10 pts in their most recent Codex.

Point is, it doesn’t matter anyway. I don’t think there’s too much of a problem in making plasma guns more expensive in IG armies, to make them comparatively rarer than the better equipped marines. It all comes down to making IG have other advantages to make for that disadvantage.

Or not, keep them cheaper than marines and it can still work. At the end of the day I think we all agree that directly comparing the cost of a plasmagun in the vanilla marine codex to the cost in the IG codex is false.

The guard need a new codex.

Doctrines are a neat idea poorly executed, and the guard are over costed, and have been so since the first 3rd edition codex. I haven't played my guard in about a year, barring one apoc game because they are ultimately disappointing to play with.

Guard should be a max of 5 points for a basic trooper, and there is no reason that a guardsman in a basic squad with a lascannon should cost more than a marine in a tactical squad with a lascannon.

sebster wrote:And it’s a good thing that stand and shoot guard is going the way of the dodo. It was really boring.

But the replacement army will be a tough thing to create, whether you build it around enhanced advisors, or better transport vehicles, or whatever. With my solution the risk is that you’ll produce an army of a million special rules, and create a new game based around the use of special abilities. With your suggestion there’s a risk that guard will fail to be properly differentiated from all the other mechanised armies going around.

Ultimately I think a lot needs to be done to bring the codex up to speed, and it is probably the hardest design challenge out there.

Yup.

I don't see the extremes that way, but I don't want (or see) GW going towards adding lots of complex rules moving forward. Personally, if I've guessed right, Guard will still be well differentiated. Their standard mechanized squad starts at only aroud 80 pts for 10 Guardsmen and a basic Chimera. Tack on weapons, and you're only looking at around 120 pts, less if you go ghetto budget. Compare with a Marine squad which is 110+ points just for a Combat Squad and Rhino. If they want the "good" weapons (Las/Plas), they're likely pushing 250 pts. So IG will have twice as many mech squads with more armor (AV12F) and more guns. With their crappy basic Guardsmen for fodder, and emphasis on Heavy/Specials, IG will have to play differently.

Sadly, I agree that there is a lot of work needed.

sebster wrote:I think we all agree that directly comparing the cost of a plasmagun in the vanilla marine codex to the cost in the IG codex is false.

Aye!

sebster wrote: At the end of the day I think we all agree that directly comparing the cost of a plasmagun in the vanilla marine codex to the cost in the IG codex is false.

As the Terminator said

"wrong"

sebster wrote:And yeah, IG and marine las/plas serve the same basic purpose, but the cost structure to get there is very different. And yeah, the marines are currently the better option by a long way, but that’s got a whole lot more to do with the standard guardsman being overpriced and most of the upgrades being somewhere between marginally useful and utter drek. Looked at in the context of a new codex you have to let that assumption go, because a codex that doesn’t fix that fundamental problem isn’t worth talking about.

Like JohnHDD, your's must be a happy and cheerful nature. I am cynical and untrusting (I blame law school...or possibly my "Lost and the Discontinued" army) - I feel it necessary to point out (repeatedly!) the places where the current design falls short, in the (probably vain) hope that someone at GW might read and understand the concerns...BEFORE we have a new codex that doesn't fix the fundamental problem.

Janathkin, the way I see it, IG have very little room to get worse, and a lot of room to get better. The IG Codex is old enough that the problems should be obvious. Based on the direction set for 5th edition, the solutions should be straightforward. I can't see IG going anywhere but up.

I find your inability to think of ways it could be worse most unRussian

Here's how:
-Raise the points of heavy weapons further (as done in previous dex).
-Leave troop points the same (as done in previous dex).
-Remove doctrines.

After all, its always darkest before it goes completely black

something odd I noticed with the new GW site.

Apocalypse sets are kept seperate from non-apoc sets in the online store. the Baneblade used to be under IG as a "superheavy". All the formations were in a seperate part of the store as well.

Now the Baneblade is simply "Heavy Support" for Imperial Guard.

Is this indicative of something unholy?

I realize it doesn't have much basis, but it is intriguing nonetheless.

Now that would be an interesting change (and have to keep those BB sales up). Now give them the Valkyrie in the real codex and things get mighty interesting.

A Baneblade as a Heavy Support choice thats would be bad A$$ and you could say it takes up all three HS slots but with one BB there isn't room for much else in the army

Vaktathi wrote:Now the Baneblade is simply "Heavy Support" for Imperial Guard.

Is this indicative of something unholy?

I am hoping this is indicative the fact that the Baneblade is made of WIN.

jfrazell wrote:Now that would be an interesting change (and have to keep those BB sales up). Now give them the Valkyrie in the real codex and things get mighty interesting.

As is often demonstrated at the Adepticon Gladiator, armies built around really expensive super-heavies tend not to be as successful as reasonably balanced armies.

Janthkin wrote:

jfrazell wrote:Now that would be an interesting change (and have to keep those BB sales up). Now give them the Valkyrie in the real codex and things get mighty interesting.

As is often demonstrated at the Adepticon Gladiator, armies built around really expensive super-heavies tend not to be as successful as reasonably balanced armies.

That I can believe, however it wouldn't be impossible to make a fairly balanced (as in all-comers with a decent chance of winning) list including a baneblade. Take a 2000pt IG army with say, a Baneblade, a couple Stormtroper squads, a couple hellhounds, and three infantry platoons and a a couple heavy weapons HQ squads could prove quite effective. Or for true target overload, a mechanized IG army with a couple sentinel squads with a baneblade might be functional.

jfrazell wrote:I find your inability to think of ways it could be worse most unRussian

Here's how:
-Raise the points of heavy weapons further (as done in previous dex).
-Leave troop points the same (as done in previous dex).
-Remove doctrines.

After all, its always darkest before it goes completely black

Superb! Caesar is pleased, you have made my day! I concur.

Vaktathi wrote:it wouldn't be impossible to make a fairly balanced (as in all-comers with a decent chance of winning) list including a baneblade. Take a 2000pt IG army with say, a Baneblade, a couple Stormtroper squads, a couple hellhounds, and three infantry platoons and a a couple heavy weapons HQ squads could prove quite effective.

Or for true target overload, a mechanized IG army with a couple sentinel squads with a baneblade might be functional.

2000 pts is 500 points more than the "suggested" game size of 1500 pts.

A Baneblade is only 600 pts, so if you can make a balanced 1500 pt army, then you can simply trade one of the Russes for a Baneblade, and the army remains balanced.

That said, the idea of running full mech with the current Codex fails because Chimeras are grossly overpriced. If Chimeras were properly costed at 50-odd points, then the mech army would be a lot more viable.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

2000 pts is 500 points more than the "suggested" game size of 1500 pts.

Actual games played however vary. The size of the average game depends largely on where you live. When I play in San Diego and a couple other places, its usually 2000pts, in Salem OR, its 1850. Tournaments are 1750 or 2000 usually on the west coast (at least from what I've seen). 1500 seems to be the average for UK and European events. It all depends on your local area.

A Baneblade is only 600 pts

Actually from Apoc its only 500, its 634 if you use the older Imperial Armour rules.

so if you can make a balanced 1500 pt army, then you can simply trade one of the Russes for a Baneblade, and the army remains balanced.

Wouldn't you have to trade three plus something else for the same points?

That said, the idea of running full mech with the current Codex fails because Chimeras are grossly overpriced. If Chimeras were properly costed at 50-odd points, then the mech army would be a lot more viable.

I whole-heartedly agree, I was suggesting that more in the realm of an updated IG codex, where hopefully the Chimera will get a 40% point reduction.

Vaktathi wrote:Actual games played however vary.

A Baneblade is only 600 pts

Actually from Apoc its only 500, its 634 if you use the older Imperial Armour rules.

so if you can make a balanced 1500 pt army, then you can simply trade one of the Russes for a Baneblade, and the army remains balanced.

Wouldn't you have to trade three plus something else for the same points?

Yes, however, most of those games are oversized for the board. 1500 points is what they suggest in the rulebook, so it's a good default starting place.

I didn't recall the points off the top of my head. Oops.

1500 (balanced) - Russ (~150) + Baneblade (~600) = 2000 (balanced).