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I think the question is really "Is las/plas bad because there is no reason to take anything else?" vs. "Is las/plas bad because it is not fluffy?" If the answer is "yes" to the first you simply have to limit the numbers you can take, or seriously lower the price/effect of other options. As you said, they seem to be needed at any price.

If the answer is yes to the second, my idea works, so long as you lower the price of other options to balance things out.

The solution to the first question is NOT to "simply limit the numbers you can take." The solution is to provide some other viable option.

And there's no reason why las/plas has to be unfluffy; the IG is the most diverse fighting force in the 40k universe, with primitive cultures using steam-powered tanks through the most advanced technology available in the Imperium.

True that. Again Another method is to make other items insanely cheaper.

ML's- 8

Autocannons- 6

GL's - 5 (krak grenade at AP 3)

that sort of thing. If I can have four ML's to one lascannon I'll take the 4 MLs if I can.

Yes...but don't forget the "total cost of ownership" factor.

Currently, a lascannon costs 25, and a ML costs 15, so you get 3 MLs for every 2 lascannon, right? Wrong.

You have to buy the squad carrying the thing, so you're paying 75 vs 85, so now you only get 9 ML squads vs 8 lascannon squads, and the 8 lascannon squads offer (mathematically) vastly superior performance.

You have to crank the cost of a lascannon insanely high (approaching 100% of the squad cost) before the value equation shifts enough to justify another weapons choice.

The equation changes for squads with multiple heavy weapons, of course, as the "discount" price of multiple MLs is a more substantial portion of the total cost of the squad.

all these are great ideas but I just feel like GW is gonna dumb down the codex and make the new models super powerful and nerf everything else. :(

Janthkin: Sorry, that "or" should be an "and". I had written the sentance completely differently, the rewrote a big chunk, and didn't fix that.

I am not trying to say las/plas is not fluffy. I am just saying if the issue isn't that all las/plas is over powered, but rather that one simply doesn't want everyone to use it, you need to come up with why they only use some las, and model that as a unit, cutting las from the rest.

The main problem I see is that las/plas are undercosted for what they do compared to other guns. There is a breaking point where things become REALLY good, mostly AP2 or S9+. The lascannon in particular needs to cost a fortune, but as you point out the total cost of ownership is not that much different after you account for the rest of the squad, % wise.

So how do you make the total cost of ownership of MLs significantly better than LC? You can either make the LC crazy expensive like you said, lower the price of the ablative wounds, or lower the required number of bodies per squad.

Or. perhaps allowing different numbers of weapons per squad would work out. Would you take 2 ML in a 10 man squad instead of 1 LC if the price was comparable?

It occurs to me that what is happening is that we are building the guardsmen squad around the weapon, not adding a weapon to help a squad be good at something. Since the individual IG is not much good, the balance point seems to be moved very far towards "How many guardsmen does it take to shoot a lascannon?"

So, simple fix... move heavy weapons squads to troops. Or something similar? There is nothing points wise to do with the lascannon vs. ml vs. auto cannon that will make the price more than 10-20% of the squads total, as Janthkin points out. (Excellent point by the way!)

True. of course the min/max concept reflects the view that we're talking ablative armor for most lists.

Wehrkind wrote:Janthkin: Sorry, that "or" should be an "and". I had written the sentance completely differently, the rewrote a big chunk, and didn't fix that.

I am not trying to say las/plas is not fluffy. I am just saying if the issue isn't that all las/plas is over powered, but rather that one simply doesn't want everyone to use it, you need to come up with why they only use some las, and model that as a unit, cutting las from the rest.

The main problem I see is that las/plas are undercosted for what they do compared to other guns. There is a breaking point where things become REALLY good, mostly AP2 or S9+. The lascannon in particular needs to cost a fortune, but as you point out the total cost of ownership is not that much different after you account for the rest of the squad, % wise.

So how do you make the total cost of ownership of MLs significantly better than LC? You can either make the LC crazy expensive like you said, lower the price of the ablative wounds, or lower the required number of bodies per squad.

Or. perhaps allowing different numbers of weapons per squad would work out. Would you take 2 ML in a 10 man squad instead of 1 LC if the price was comparable?

It occurs to me that what is happening is that we are building the guardsmen squad around the weapon, not adding a weapon to help a squad be good at something. Since the individual IG is not much good, the balance point seems to be moved very far towards "How many guardsmen does it take to shoot a lascannon?"

So, simple fix... move heavy weapons squads to troops. Or something similar? There is nothing points wise to do with the lascannon vs. ml vs. auto cannon that will make the price more than 10-20% of the squads total, as Janthkin points out. (Excellent point by the way!)

We went into the underlying premise behind this a few pages back: basically, can you do something to make the basic IG grunt a useful entity in and of himself? I suggested a number of things; others suggested that it was silly to do so, as the Guardsman should be the pinacle of pathetic in the 40k universe, purchased only for his ability to bring heavy weapons along. That latter viewpoint evolved the conversation in this direction.

We're going to get a new codex if we like it or not.

Jervis knows whats good for you.



Personally, I feel that the codexes could have all been combined and the crap fluffed through. To accent One regiment at the expense of Flavor of the Month does the whole concept of the " Codex" a disservice.
To give squads options shouldn't be a dirty word. Las/Plas runs most tables, but in the grand scheme of things, had they given more thought to the Gurad, we could actually have a pretty good game with a bit of an exception to the poorly written " One HQ, Two Troop" abortions that most games quickly minimax to.

No options for giving the " HQ" to someoens else besides a officer? well.... Techprists, Inquisition, PDF, Gangs, mech armies, Titans, orbital bombardment, large scale Laviathans, etc....
The IG is the old school russians types from Enemies at the Gate. Picks up the rifle from the one that falls....
More options is a better option.

Janthkin wrote:can you do something to make the basic IG grunt a useful entity in and of himself?

Yes, you can! You can have some number of indvidual Guardsmen serve as the 2nd crewman on a Heavy Weapon. Other than that, the most valuable stat of a Guardsman is W1.

Personally, I would never even consider plasma in IG, never mind model the stuff. Two reasons:

1) to me logically, a las pistol = technology availble to make a bigger version - Lascanon, fits in fluffwise. If so many guardsman can have a standard size gun then logically it's 'simple' technology, and so more readily availble in bigger options. Plasma is more specialised, and in 40K still 'experimental' (They still havn't fixed that bloody over heating!). If technology is dangerous, valuable, rare and hard to come by then surly it's reserved for more elite armies, e.g. marines. Why give it to the grunts that in reality are a flesh screen for the big guns? Just doesn't fit in my mind. Before you start screeming at me, I'm not saying IG don't have Plasma weapons, just that in a standard IG army of maybe 100 tropps, the chance that a tiny proportion of the regiments (of millions) is going to have one, never mind 3 or 4 plasma weapons is extreemly low and I think if they have a few availble they would probably be given to the 'body guard' of the regiments command, and knowing the guard this would be several miles behind the front line were the guns wont be effective anyway.

2) I hate the things! Used to always have at least one cannon and two pistols in my marine army, out of two games I'd literally get about one shot form them. There's somethingabout me, plasma weapons and 1's on dice! I've had too many commanders and sergeants die from over heating guns now and just won't risk it on marines, never mind IG that can't hit that green tide charging towards them at point blank range.

I actually feel lasconnons etc. are priced OK. I've just done up my new army list and what I wanted to include actually fitted neatly into 1500. Ity wasn't easy selecting lasconnons over the other options as that 5 pt difference over several choices (support squads, plus the options of tank upgrades) means that not taking them allows nearly enough points for another squad or tank. The only 'improvement' I would make is to make guardsmen able to deal out a bit more damage in the first round of combat, a lasgun with bayonet (still able to fire while having it atached) equates to a spear or something in fantasy, orks, nids etc. are are probably dumb enough or suicidal enough to charge a line of spears, those that arn't well, that's the players choice then.... Once the squishy troopers behind the guns are reached it's all over. I just think this would encourage more people to take far more 'standard troopers' than taking the minimum and a load of other juicy things. Yes you need the odd tank and anti tank squad, it's inevitable, but there should be a much higher troop to tank ratio than there is now, and part of the reason is that IG need big guns to do most of the work. I do understand there will be a problem against more mechanised armies as lasguns are pants, but allow support squads to take demo charges or melta bombs. You could also argue that guard would deploy a relevant detachment to deal with the threat, the players the commander, so if you know your regular opponent is Chaos marines, then it's up to the player to take lots of las canon or go for a mechanised detachment.

Sorry if that was a bit ranty, I just get a bit fed up of all the codexes being so pick and mix, I agree fluff wise armies would be boring to play with, but at the same time, I feel the game should be a bit more reflective of the fluff (or the other way around) rather than just pick what you like best and the codex is so flexile you can fit it in. Takes the challenge away from building up an army. You do get power gamers, and people that theme armies, but I bought mine at Christmas to make a themed army, boutght models I liked thinking I'll just add in bits at a later date to make it legal, but guess what...all I need is one troops squad more, all the other tasty models fit in easily with room to spare. Just seemed far to easy in my mind. There was more of a challenege (if only small) back in 2nd when it went on % rather than this curent slots option. Anyone who collects to play with a little experience know and army of just heavy support is difficult to win with and can be rather bland....they want a bit f option, not any option....

Few, that was a bit long!

Feel free to turn all I said to rubish with better arguments, just my personal tastes.....and they're not changing anytime soon, and I'll stick to them with my own force

That's why I suggested that it would be an idea to have certain hi-tech weapons require the presence of a model with the Blessing of the Omnissiah, like an Enginseer, in a Command Squad before that platoon could be equipped with them.

covenant84 wrote:If technology is dangerous, valuable, rare and hard to come by then surly it's reserved for more elite armies, e.g. marines

Wrong.

Plasma Guns are rare insofar as they cannot give one to every single Guardsman. Plasma Guns are so rare infact that they can usually only have one per squad.

That's how rare they are. They're not 'Wow! A Plasma Gun! Haven't seen one of those in years' rare. They're 'I wish we could give one to everyone rather than just one in every 10 of you' rare.

BYE

Besides - what about the 40k background would make anyone believe that the Imperium cares whether plasma guns overheat and kill their users?

Welll, I think there is fluff and background to back up a claim that plasma guns are rare (or at least operational plasma guns are rare) to the point of being far less then 1 per 10, and closer to 1 per platoon or somesuch. They are genuinely hard to get and maintain, and only higher tech regiements will field them in large numbers (according to the fluff).

On the other hand, according to the fluff, IG will mostly fight: 1) other IG, 2) Orks, and 3) Lost and the Damned. I feel bad about fielding rare tech in high numbers, but then I fight two Marine armies and a Necon army. Or i'll fight an eldar army led by Eldrad, who is not only singular (And thus very rare) but is actually dead.

I don't want to steer anyone away from creating their lists the way they want, but keep in mind that any IG regiement on a 40k tabletop represents a company being given an important and difficult mission, and thus it's perfectly acceptable that they would be loaded to the gills with the best stuff the imperium has.

Or i'll fight an eldar army led by Eldrad, who is not only singular (And thus very rare) but is actually dead.

That is probably my favorite line all week.

Nurglitch's idea of making certain subsets of weapons "Omnisiah tech" or something might not be a bad one. As much as I don't like having to take X unit to take Y other unit, usually because X blows goats for pocket change, it might make a certain amount of sense in this case.
Alternately, you could have "Standard weapons" groups and "elite" weapons groups, where the elite weapons either require an upgraded squad leader to field, or perhaps even making a new troop choice "specialist weapons squad" which is a little more expensive, but can take lascannons, plasma things and maybe... I don't know, whatever flavor of death ray seems good.

If one were going to use the current codex format of listing every option with the unit type's entry, you could perhaps have Standard Squad which could take the basic weapons (ML, AC, Flamer) and could buy options like Light Infantry or whatever. Then have another troop type Specialist Squad with the fancy weapons, and different options, maybe +1 BS, hell guns or whatever makes sense fluff wise. The specialists would cost more than the standard grunts, and can be made more "elite" in different ways, but the normal grunts could be dirt cheap and still field and effective array of weapons.

In this way, you increase the total cost of a lascannon while decreasing that of a missile launcher, and offer two different directions for the army: cheap horde of guys, elite high tech mo-fo's, or some combination. Three different directions.
After that, you could add bonuses to units for different battle field roles to further make your army special or flexible.

I must admit, I feel it would be unfair to limit IG's access to plasma and lascannon weaponry just because they are supposedly rare in the fluff. I don't see that same kind of logic in any of the other codexes. Do we charge more points per space marine because they are rare? No, in fact GW underprices them.

Points are supposed to represent battlefield effectiveness and nothing else, although I am the first to admit that GW rarely follows their own rule.

Personally, I agree with HBMC, rare means 1-2 per squad, not 1 per sector.

Like your idea Wehrkind. I'd add heavy stubber and heavy bolter to the standard weapons group.

covenant84 wrote:Personally, I would never even consider plasma in IG,

1) Plasma is more specialised, and in 40K still 'experimental' (They still havn't fixed that bloody over heating!). If technology is dangerous, valuable, rare and hard to come by then surly it's reserved for more elite armies, e.g. marines.

The only 'improvement' I would make is to make guardsmen able to deal out a bit more damage in the first round of combat, a lasgun with bayonet

No, Plasma is mass production, but wonky. Like a Ford Pinto. As GW has repeatedly said, Plasma is only "rare" from the standpoint that you can't fit an entire army with them.

The bayonet thing is utter nonsense. A meat popsicle doesn't become a threat to an Ork (or anyone ekse) by attaching a little bit of sharp metal to the end of his flashlight. In HtH, Guard get bent over *hard*. That's how it is, that's how it should be.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Plasma Guns are rare insofar as they cannot give one to every single Guardsman. Plasma Guns are so rare infact that they can usually only have one per squad.

Exactly right!

Polonius wrote:Welll, I think there is fluff and background to back up a claim that plasma guns are rare (or at least operational plasma guns are rare) to the point of being far less then 1 per 10, and closer to 1 per platoon or somesuch.

They are genuinely hard to get and maintain, and only higher tech regiements will field them in large numbers (according to the fluff).

On the other hand, according to the fluff, IG will mostly fight: 1) other IG, 2) Orks, and 3) Lost and the Damned. I feel bad about fielding rare tech in high numbers, but then I fight two Marine armies and a Necon army.

Um, where is this referenced?

Obviously, most of us are fielding higher-tech regiments.

Even against enemy IG, Orks, and Traitors, Plasma is still useful to pop Chimeras, drop Nobs, and stop big stuff.

Wehrkind wrote:Nurglitch's idea of making certain subsets of weapons "Omnisiah tech" or something might not be a bad one.

As long as the incremental cost of the (now) mandatory Omnimessiah tech is inconsequentially trivial and insignificant, I'm all for it. IOW, Command Platoon has "1+ Omnimessiah Tech (full Enginseer stats for 10 pts, no FOC impact)." If the IG are recosted properly, I'd be willing to see the cost bump up to, say 20 or 25 pts. But the idea that the IG should be penalized in any measurable way is nonsense:

IG troopers exist to carry Heavy and Special Weapons, no more, no less.

The remaining dog soldiers are merely ablative wounds to ensure that the all-important Heavy and Special Weapons continue to fire unimpeded.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Janthkin wrote:can you do something to make the basic IG grunt a useful entity in and of himself?

Yes, you can! You can have some number of indvidual Guardsmen serve as the 2nd crewman on a Heavy Weapon. Other than that, the most valuable stat of a Guardsman is W1.

If I wasn't actually forced to assemble, model and paint every one of those useless meatshields, I'd be perfectly content to accept they have no battlefield role. Maybe GW should consider just equipping each squad with a heavy weapon team and 8 "grunt markers".

I think the way this poll is worded is extremely biased and misleading and is skewing the results. For shame Kyoto! The question should have been phrased thus: "Do we want to toss the current IG codex in trash and go back to using the previous version from early 3rd edition?" Fix it posthaste!

Agamemnon2 wrote:If I wasn't actually forced to assemble, model and paint every one of those useless meatshields, I'd be perfectly content to accept they have no battlefield role. Maybe GW should consider just equipping each squad with a heavy weapon team and 8 "grunt markers".

If it makes you feel any better, my Guardsmen are in painted in fine-detailed camo, and I have well over 100 IG troopers. Of course, mine are all metals, so there's less assembly involved, but you get the idea.

Reading the Departmento Munitorium book, the idea of having to have a Techpriest around before people can use Plasma Guns doesn't make a lot of sense.

The AdMech don't control the weapons like that. The DM does, and they handle all the procurement, distribution, requisition and replacements. There's no sense of great reverence around any weapons as though they're rare. The only thing that is apparent is that weapons and equipment are regarded as more important than the lives of Guardsmen. There are actually punishments Guardsmen can undertake for saving fallen troopers over fallen equipment.

BYE

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote:If I wasn't actually forced to assemble, model and paint every one of those useless meatshields, I'd be perfectly content to accept they have no battlefield role. Maybe GW should consider just equipping each squad with a heavy weapon team and 8 "grunt markers".

If it makes you feel any better, my Guardsmen are in painted in fine-detailed camo, and I have well over 100 IG troopers. Of course, mine are all metals, so there's less assembly involved, but you get the idea.

Just venting, i know it's the same for every Guard army, really. Mine aren't in unified camo, at least, which makes it more fun for me, as the army represents a penal legion drawn from numerous regiments.

Looking back at it, doing detailed camo for Guard was probably a mistake simply because of the sheer numbers. But it looks pretty good, so that's OK.

The idea of assembling multi-pose Cadians or Catachans in bulk is crazy. Those IG models should be simplified radically to really make the army viable for newcomers.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

open_sketchbook wrote:Guardsmen should have BS4 when firing lasguns. Taking heavy weapons in platoon squads should require a doctrine, or simply not be an option.

Um, Guardsmen could be auto-hit with their S3 AP- Lasguns and they'd still be crap for shooting.

Ha! Right on the nail there dude.

For my 2cents yes they need a new dex - given that Orks are now reduced to 6 points Im going to go out on a limb here ( ) and suggest that Guard should be more appropriately pointed, prob similar to what the conscripts are now - 4pts per model but with an increased cost for the heavy and special weapons. This would allow silly gimps like me to then have a huge, but viable infantry army.

Current competitive lists generally favour tanks tanks and more tanks, and with the new scoring units system I believe Guard need a little boost, though a simple reduction in points will prob cut it.

As for doctrines, I like everyone else here expect them to go. And I wouldnt be surprised if the simply get binned.

These cheaper weapons sound like a good idea, but i think you guys are forgetting a fundamental thing about guard. You buy the squad THEN you buy the heavy weapons.

so while what you say is awesome it means you'd have to spend a considerable more amount on already a expensive army. Maybe including advanced training into the points be interesting like 6 point BS 4 guard?

If they get a new codex they need plasma cannon and multimelta gun platforms!!!

Here's an idea:

Instead of Veterans being assigned to their own squads, why not allow players the option to upgrade the special and heavy weapon troopers to veterans in the regular squads?

Something like this:

9 Guardsmen plus sergeant - 40 Points
May upgrade up to three guardsmen to veterans for +3 points each.

glowgos, I don't know many people who'd complain about the added expenditure. How many Ork players did you hear bemoaning the fact that their boys are now a mere 6 pts. each? Not many, I bet.

with the ork box you get eveything you need special weapons and heavys. 20 orks is £24. 20 men is £38 with a box of heavy weapons to make them "viable."

I thinks its a considerable difference. even if you do get a free heavy weapon. anyway since this is a nice chat about rules.....

maybe a upgradable veteran seargant? because they will probably get rid of skills and drills.

Marksmen: BS4 15 points
woodsman: counts as auspex and allows infiltrate 10 points.
CQB tactics: 2 special weapons. 2 points
Old criminal: furious charge 5 points