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Kid Kyoto, you are treating codex development as a zero sum game. Having a DE codex does not mean that LatD will not be getting one, and vice versa for that matter. Honestly though, LatD is gone and frankly they never really existed to begin with as all they ever had was a sub-codex and never had any models. You want LatD, use the IG codex and "counts-as"!

DE deserve a place as they are an army that is unlike any other force out there currently. Yes they have a list that is still (somewhat) competitive, but by that rational, we should never update any list as long as it still "works."

Ozymandias, King of Kings

As I said in the other thread, by definition, Codex development is definitely a zero-sum game. If DE is being developed, those resources are not available for anything else. If GW works on something else, then they can't use them for DE.

The idea that DE "deserve" an army is kind of strange, when there are much more deserving armies out there.

As someone who has both armies and knows people who played both, I do not wish to see either army go.

DE are an army that is meant for veteran players and even the game designers who wrote the book say that it is an army that requires finesse and guile unlike people who play with armies that rely on their numbers or their superior armorsaves to makeup for their mistakes. DE are a connoisseur's army. Many of you have claimed that you have never been beaten by DE but you give that army to someone who is good and its an army that has to its credit Several GT wins where as armies such as Necrons, Guard and Inquisition dont have one (IIRC).

Perhaps for a playing style that is not meant for people new to a game and that the game designers know themselves will not be a popular army. Another reason is simply the models are pretty bad and the grotesques are something out of a BDSM movie. An army that has little or no support will suffer in sales as they are not being pushed.

As for fluff, I love an army that has no real agenda or aspirations of conquest. I want an army that kills for the sake of fun and an army that can plausibly be the opposing force against any army fielded against them. DE are a the one true villainous race. Orks fight because of their nature, Tyranids are hungry, Tau fight for the greater good, Imperium is all about humanity, Chaos thinks Horus was the right man for the job, Eldar are just surviving, Necrons will be back, and deamons are supporting their patron god.

LatD's biggest problem is they dont have a dedicated model line and usually the armies were either counts-as or 100% converted. LatD deserve both a model line (or atleast return to the conversion kits) and a codex.

There is plenty of negativity on this thread and easily can lead to a pissing match on who deserves what but DE and LatD do need an update of sorts. DE is a hybrid army that rewards skill and unorthodox playstyle. LatD offers an army with a ground up modeling experience combined with a sinister look at guard.

Please lets not wish any army to be squatted. I find it a very big insult to wish this on players who fell in love with the army and you want for it to vanish.

Ozymandias wrote:Kid Kyoto, you are treating codex development as a zero sum game. Having a DE codex does not mean that LatD will not be getting one, and vice versa for that matter.

d00d it's totally zero sum.

Developer time is limited.
Release windows are limited.
Shelf space is limited.
Customer time, attention and budgets are limited.

GW can only support so many factions, an I say rather than devote those limited resources to an army that fans have REJECTED TWICE and which is STILL AVAILABLE they're better off putting those resources into an army with an estabished fan base, a well-defined role in the game universe and tons of potential.

Again,

DE are currently under development. They have an existing codex and therefore they will continue to be supported into the future.


LatD were part of the 'sub-codex' expansion of armies that at some point everyone at GW realized they couldn't continually support all the sub-codexes that they had put out indefinitely into the future.

As such we've seen all sub-codexes go out of print and the army lists contained within phased out by way of lack of compatibility updates.


While I would personally love to see a LatD codex and miniature line, they are most certainly in a different realm than DE.

DE have and will continue to be supported as a line of miniatures with a codex.

LatD up until this point have not had a miniatures line and will not get a full codex until the company decides to do so (or changes its policies).

JohnHwangDD wrote:As I said in the other thread, by definition, Codex development is definitely a zero-sum game. If DE is being developed, those resources are not available for anything else. If GW works on something else, then they can't use them for DE.

The idea that DE "deserve" an army is kind of strange, when there are much more deserving armies out there.

You mean like Black Templars that were included in a single picture in the 2nd edition marine dex as a "codex" chapter in all black armor, and didn't make an appearance until the Armageddon mini-book. Or maybe Chaos Daemons, who didn't exist outside of the chaos marine codex until 5th edition?

At least Dark Eldar were strongly ensconced in the Eldar fluff about the fall, and were the second "3rd edition" army put out by GW. That's more pedigree than the previous two. As Yak mentioned, DE will be getting a book, and new models. The only thing that DE suffered from with their release is they didn't have a strong concept (meaning next to no fluff, since GW was in their minimalist phase), didn't have good models, and were put up against Marines in the starter set - oh yeah, 10 Marines and a Speeder against 20 Dark Eldar warriors with splinter cannon, that'll make DE look real good as an army for someone picking up the game...

GW mentioned previously that they will only create codexes (codicies for the retentive) for armies they will support fully. DE is one of those, and so now apparently are Templars and Chaos Daemons... I'm not going to hold out any hope that they can update all of the 3rd ed dexes before the 6th edition of 40k...

No, as I've said repeatedly lately: LatD and AdMech, after Guard, Necrons, & Woofs.

Also, Chaos Daemons have been around since RT. And they had a standalone "Daemon World" army list in the 2nd Edition Chaos Codex. So Daemons clearly predate "Dark Eldar".

WRT "The Fall", you're thinking about Crone Worlds. Dark Eldar were pulled out of nowhere. Like Tau.

For the past several years, GW has repeatedly claimed to be working on them. Every single time, people get wound up for a couple months, but a few months pass, and nothing happens. As usual, I have seen nothing to suggest that GW isn't just blowing smoke again. Heck, we even had Yak proffering the old Juan Diaz models as new greens. The desperation is palpable and unwarranted until such time as GW actually shows something concrete. Now if you've got something real that you can share, I'll reconsider. Until then, you guys have zero cred, and the onus is on you to conclusively *prove* that DE are coming. Not for me to show that it isn't.

And from what I see, DE *are* currently being supported as fully as they deserve. They have a legal army list that is still available from MO. That's a *lot* better than Chaos Dwarfs or Squats.

But I do agree that it's futile to hold out hope for an update to the DE book before 6th Edition.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Heck, we even had Yak proffering the old Juan Diaz models as new greens.

Wha? No I didn't.

I said that Moloch, who has repeatedly gotten his hands on Jes Goodwin's models far before release in the past, commented that he has seen the new Jes Goodwin DE models. That's about as rock-solid a confirmation as you can get.

When I pointed this out I simply made a mistake and assumed you were responding to Moloch when in actuality you were discussing the Juan Diaz sculpts.

So please get your facts straight if you're going to attack my credibility.

Besides, while before GW has nebulously mentioned that they are working on DE in the future, they have never before confirmed who was sculpting the line and writing the codex as they did at the LAGD.

JohnHwangDD wrote:By definition, we are talking about a zero-sum game on a slot-by-slot basis.

We don't play Warhammer on a slot-by-slot basis. We play it on a continual basis, over the course of many slots. While the number of slots every edition is finite, GW can set however many slots they want between editions. So no, DE does not take any resources from anything else in any meaningful way.

What I'm generally arguing for is for DE to perpetually be pushed to the back of the queue whenever anything more profitable or important comes up.

Now, I'm very sorry if you think I'm somehow being "unsporting", but let's be very, very clear: I am NOT arguing for anybody to lose their favorite army.

Yeah, there's a huge difference between the two.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:I'd rather wait and them get it right than rush it and have it go off half cocked...

Yeah,
QFT, I hate it when people have no patiance... like in mc donalds when chavs start complaining to staff "I've been waiting more than 10secs for my burger..."

Also I don't think they can squat the dark eldar being that they were a 40k (edition?) boxset starter army... Plus their Fluff is much more solid than that of the space dwarfs...

Also Lost and the Damned, was there another reason for them to be phased out? other than they were a sub codex? was the list broken or boring?
I built my eldar on a sub-codex List Iyanden, and I kinda feel for L&TD lot... But you get the feeling that L&TD and Squat players need to move on...
Just counts as or sell on ebay...

Panic...

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Ozymandias wrote:Kid Kyoto, you are treating codex development as a zero sum game. Having a DE codex does not mean that LatD will not be getting one, and vice versa for that matter.

d00d it's totally zero sum.

Developer time is limited.
Release windows are limited.
Shelf space is limited.
Customer time, attention and budgets are limited.

GW can only support so many factions, an I say rather than devote those limited resources to an army that fans have REJECTED TWICE and which is STILL AVAILABLE they're better off putting those resources into an army with an estabished fan base, a well-defined role in the game universe and tons of potential.

True that developer time is limited, but there are more than one designer and once they finish the DE codex, they could start the LatD codex. Hence my point that having one does not mean not having the other.

Plus, you and JohnHwanng keep forgetting the story of the Wood Elves. They were the DE of WHFB, always updated last, goofy models, no real support or direction. Then, they released a fantastic army book and a fantastic model range and now they are one of the more popular armies out there. There is no reason to assume that a well done DE codex would be rejected. And how were they rejected twice? Are you referring the 2.0 codex that came out with no fanfare and no supporting models? And how big of an established fan base does LatD actually have? In my small town we have at least 3 Dark Eldar players and no LatD players. Sounds like DE have a much larger fan base than the sub-codex with no models.

I know you have this irrational hatred of DE, but you are crying in vain as Yak has already pointed out the DE are already in development (and LatD are not).

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Here in England its coming in December, according to several GW stores i visited

SonsOfLoki wrote:Here in England its coming in December, according to several GW stores i visited

Great time for it to come out, sounds like I will be buying Christmas DE this year ^^

It's not coming out this December, we'd have heard something already.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Ozymandias wrote:It's not coming out this December, we'd have heard something already.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

It could be a secret and there going to surprise us :(

people need to think more positive!

yakface wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Heck, we even had Yak proffering the old Juan Diaz models as new greens.

Wha? No I didn't.

I said that Moloch, who has repeatedly gotten his hands on Jes Goodwin's models far before release in the past, commented that he has seen the new Jes Goodwin DE models. That's about as rock-solid a confirmation as you can get.

When I pointed this out I simply made a mistake and assumed you were responding to Moloch when in actuality you were discussing the Juan Diaz sculpts.

So please get your facts straight if you're going to attack my credibility.

Besides, while before GW has nebulously mentioned that they are working on DE in the future, they have never before confirmed who was sculpting the line and writing the codex as they did at the LAGD.

OK, I must have misunderstood your initial post referencing GD Spain.

IMO, seeing models doesn't mean that much. When did GW preview the new Craftworld Eldar (Sport) Jetbike? Where are my new Jetbikes? I've been waiting quite a while for my "wave 2" release.

But please don't interpret my message as an attack on your credibility. It's more of an example of how people are grasping at the least of straws in the hopes of good news when none are warranted.

Also, with the cutbacks at GW, is anybody else even available to do the work?

JOHIRA wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:By definition, we are talking about a zero-sum game on a slot-by-slot basis.

While the number of slots every edition is finite, GW can set however many slots they want between editions. So no, DE does not take any resources from anything else in any meaningful way.

What I'm generally arguing for is for DE to perpetually be pushed to the back of the queue whenever anything more profitable or important comes up.

Now, I'm very sorry if you think I'm somehow being "unsporting", but let's be very, very clear: I am NOT arguing for anybody to lose their favorite army.

Yeah, there's a huge difference between the two.

OK, then you should just be happy that there will be an effectively unlimited number of slots until the DE are released, as it doesn't affect the resources of anything else currently under development. :S

As I noted, there is a huge difference between the two. Being at "the back of the queue" means you still have a Codex that you can play at GTs and other "official" GW events. But if you "lose your favorite army" (cf. Squats, LatD, Chaos Dwarves, Dogs of War), you don't even get to play. As an ex-Fantasy player with a Dogs of War army, I can tell you that there is a world of difference between the two, and if you don't get that, there's not thing I can do for you. Perhaps when DE finally get Squatted, you'll understand the distinction.

Ozymandias wrote:Plus, you and JohnHwanng keep forgetting the story of the Wood Elves.

I know you have this irrational hatred of DE, but you are crying in vain as Yak has already pointed out the DE are already in development (and LatD are not).

Ozy, there's no crying until you or Yak actually *show* something: a new green or a leaked PDF would do just fine. Otherwise, it's just more smoke and hot air.

I'm well aware of the Wood Elves. Perhaps the DE should show similar restraint and patience.

SonsOfLoki wrote:Here in England its coming in December, according to several GW stores i visited

More hearsay. Again, *show* me!

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you JohnHwang. Are you saying you hope DE get squatted? Or are you just saying that they will get squatted because thats the only concievable route you have determined?

I played LatD, and 13th company and Kroot Mercs. I have been squatted 3 times. I would love to see all my armies get rules, but hey, we were subcodex armies, that means all we need is an entry or two in the parent codex and we're good.

DE need their book. They have an entire model range. They have been popular enough to win at least 2 GTs. In the Wrecking Crew there are 7 players with DE armies and 2 who had LatD, myself being one. I must say DE need there book, deserve it, and guess what, they will get it. Regardless of an pessimism or anger towards DE, they have support from players.

Dont wish the DE go the way of the squats, that is an insult and a slap to the faces of a lot of players. Dont suggest it either. We know GW has enough planned for them to at least last this edition.

DE FTW

@Darkness:

No, I'm not hoping the DE get Squatted. I'm saying that, barring actual evidence to the contrary, it appears that DE are on course to be Squatted 5 or 10 or 15 years from now.

I saw the dog and pony show that the Squats and Chaos Dwarf players got. I did Dogs of War and Kroot Mercs. And my DoW even had an actual Army Book, with a full model range, and new releases.

If GW can do it to DoW, they will do it to the DE.

I'm just glad that my DE have the distinction of being the very first army that I sold off. Too bad you didn't see it coming.

I hope you are wrong you jerk.

Whatever. I'm done here.

John old boy, you've got some serious emotional issues going to be getting this worked up over a fictional race from a science fiction universe.

Relapse wrote: John old boy, you've got some serious emotional issues going to be getting this worked up over a fictional race from a science fiction universe.

Maybe he's more upset at the money and time he put into an army that is no longer supported, while an army he thinks is a poor addition to the 40k universe IS getting supported?

I don't agree with his assessment of the situation, but I certainly understand and sympathize with where he's coming from. As a DE player, I certainly get sick of seeing Marine after Marine release while my codex languishes. I can certainly still play with my ancient codex and crappy outdated models, but half he units and unit options are meaningless, either points/effectiveness-wise or because they don't apply to the current rule set.

yeah,
I don't think it's as bad as that, his army is still made of models from ranges that are still from sale.
I have a LATD army rotting in a crate... but if i wanted i could separtate the guard from the tanks from the zombie bits... I just can't be bothered...
But it's not like GW stole my mini's...

I'm going to take the tanks remove the chaos bits and integrate them into my guard army... I'm eye'n my massed up chaos sentinals legs thinking they might make the base for a defiler/soulgrinder... some I might not bother with and i'll sell on ebay...

I never even got one game with that army, Sometimes it's not win/win ... but being bitter about it isn't going to help... neither is slamming GW on the interwebs...

I'm glad Johnhwangdd has normally got a better out look on things...

Panic...

A couple of comments:
- "Dogs of War" are NOT listed under "Warhammer Armies" on the GW website.
- "Dogs of War" are NOT listed under "Warhammer Collectors" on the GW website.
- *some* (but not all) DoW models are available as "miscellaneous" models, offered at a princely sum of roughly $5 USD per model

So when random DE players whine about how they "need" a new Codex, I will take exception to that. Unlike Dogs of War, at least DE still *have* a Codex and can play as such at GW GT events.

Grimaldi wrote:

Relapse wrote: John old boy, you've got some serious emotional issues going to be getting this worked up over a fictional race from a science fiction universe.

Maybe he's more upset at the money and time he put into an army that is no longer supported, while an army he thinks is a poor addition to the 40k universe IS getting supported?

I can sympathize with that outlook to a point, but if he has a half decent crew where he games at, there's no problem with using armies that are no longer officially supported in friendly games. As far as tournaments go, that's another story, and that truly sucks and I am sorry for him.
What I don't understand, though is why there is all the complaining and carrying on about how GW is the evil empire, etc., etc. , with the people doing most of the complaining seeming to be the ones that do most of the posting here and a lot of the buying of GW products.
If I seriously had the issues with GW I see a lot posters lay out here week after week I would have dropped 40k and anything to do with it long ago and moved on to better things.

cant DE just folow the example set by squats?

Nah. They're too quick and villainy to be eaten by tyranids.

Probably killed off by randomly teleporting Necrons.

either way sounds fine

To add my possibly irrelevant opinion to this discussion, as someone who primarily played LatD, 13th Company and Dark Eldar prior to the great cleansing of 5th edition (Alot like the user Darkness), I feel triple squatted.

But, like Relapse said this really only affects me if I'm a tournament goer - and if that's the case, then tough. I know how collectible games work. Sometimes thing phase out in new editions and your favorite [X] are dropped. I'm not a tournament player though, so I'm fine where my main army - LatD are even in 5th edition. I lost a few options but it's still not the hyper-competitive it wasn't back in 4th edition. The people at my shop/gaming circle don't mind me playing an old codex. I don't have any unfair advantage over newer lists and I'm still actually at a disadvantage - just like I was years ago.

I'm mainly just happy that DE are rumored to be in the works, and that if I really wanted to hit up tournaments I could just wait for them to get redone and restart them. Not to say I can't now, but I've pretty much dropped them until the remake and decided to focus on my very playable LatD list, which I still have a lot of fun playing and modeling which is the most important part of this game to myself.

Now for the people crying for updates on LatD, what's the hurry? Is there some big rush to return to not placing at tournaments just like before? The list was never hyper-competitive even in 3rd edition as I remember, so where does the issue lay? Is the problem you can't take a list you won't win with to a tournament, or just the principle that the option is gone? I thought the whole concept of going to a tournament was to win?