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they look good to me. they are far from fluff cannon, but then again, who cares..

doing something outside the box is just as much fun as following fluff dogma..

well done.

Oh noes! ... His little toys arn't brainwashed by fictional imperial dogma!

Even if you don't agree with the fluff(which is fairly resonable anyway. I mean come on ... the fluff can't even figure out how many breasts it wants demonettes to have: 2 coverd, 2 -6 uncovered, no wait only one and its covered) step back and remember this is only a game. In a creative hobby I consider everythign tht is not the same as what the other 4,000 people are doing to be a plus.

I have been impressed by all of Doc Thunders armies so far, and have had the pleasure to play him and see them in person, and fluff or no fluff it's fun to see someone put down models you have never seen before. And spend 15 minutes, going oh.. those must be your veterans, wow, that plasma conversion looks sweet, what did you use for the torsos, I don't recognize that part, Where did you get those heads from, etc.

Keep it up Doc, looking forward to seeing further progres on these and I really am looking foreard to seeing the vehicles you showed us at Mind Games a few weeks ago when they get painted up. Those were some pretty sweet conversions!

Meph

Its not that I don't like the Idea of female Marines, its that all he did was put WHFB heads on PRE-EXISTING 40k kits. Its not impressive, and alot of people didn't like the widows chapter (myself included) because over-seized breasts do not make a male sculpted model (broad-shoulders, non- shaped hips) into a female model, it just makes them look silly.

However i must add that i really did like some of the female guardsmen models he made and DT should do more threads on those because i've always wanted a rag-tag female Hardened Vet unit for my guard.

Black Widows are the only places I can see breasts. There should be more boobie power armor.

I mean come on ... the fluff can't even figure out how many breasts it wants demonettes to have: 2 coverd, 2 -6 uncovered, no wait only one and its covered)

You do realize that there is no fluff on what the Chaos gods randomly decide to put on their creations...


I know it is fictional fluff, but you can't compare a random thing like chaos daemonettes number of breasts to Imperial Doctrine.

Space Marines with boobs makes perfect sense for most teenagers, so who am I to say no?

My main issue with the Black Widows was their implants being genetic.
Fabulous Bile isn't that great. That's gotta be a huge alteration to the Space Marine process.

For these marines, I agree that the one with the shields (white scars?) looks weird with the shield glued to her thighs. The salamander looks cool though.

Red_Lives wrote:

However i must add that i really did like some of the female guardsmen models he made and DT should do more threads on those because i've always wanted a rag-tag female Hardened Vet unit for my guard.

You will. I've got plans for a kick-ass female cadian army, I've just been holding off for the new IG codex to come out.

Doctor Thunder wrote:

Chrysaor686 wrote:I was always under the understanding that Space Marines were at least partially cloned from the genetic material of the Emperor.

No Black Carapace and all of that aside, how in the hell do you clone a woman from a man?

If it helps, think of it this way:
The vast majority of our genetics are gender neutral. Of the 23 pairs, only the final one has any effect on gender. In the final pair women have XX and Men have XY. Since men have an X chromosome as well, which is what they pass onto their daughters, it is possible to take two X chromosomes from any man and create a female version of him.

That might be some bad fluff, it's impossible due to genetic imprinting, uniparental disomys are always bad news. If they receive 2 copies of the same chromosome from the same parent, you'll be lucky if they can spell their names with a purple crayon, never mind use a bolter.

RoosterCogburn wrote:

That might be some bad fluff, it's impossible due to genetic imprinting, uniparental disomys are always bad news. If they receive 2 copies of the same chromosome from the same parent, you'll be lucky if they can spell their names with a purple crayon, never mind use a bolter.

You registered on Dakka just to post that?

If you don't like something big woop, don't look at it. An army is to be enjoyed by the person making it, and as long as you can tell what it is and what it counts as there shouldn't be too many problems.

Doctor Thunder wrote:

RoosterCogburn wrote:

That might be some bad fluff, it's impossible due to genetic imprinting, uniparental disomys are always bad news. If they receive 2 copies of the same chromosome from the same parent, you'll be lucky if they can spell their names with a purple crayon, never mind use a bolter.

You registered on Dakka just to post that?

everyone needs to start somewhere.

Doctor T

I hope you don't take my post as negative, and I'llmention right here that you idea for a Female Cadian force is very very necessary!

I think, what you're trying to do, is to fill a void in t he fluff that deals with women in the WH40K universe. Its one of my biggest bug-bears, and its what makes other Sci Fi games, in my opinion, better!

However....I feel its a great waste of your time and effort to try to distort, what is essentially, someone elses ideas to suit, what perhaps, you and I feel is an oversight on their part.

Space Marines are male...GW says so....so lets leave that point where it is. However, like your Cadian idea, why not do like some of us are doing / plan to do, and simply create your own "race" that can be used with WH40K.....that way you can set the rules, creativity, etc on your own terms.

GW Space Marines were perhaps created in a more...less enlightened time, and GW has never done anything to set this right for the more "modern" age...I guess, if it sells, then go right on selling it.

So in short, my advice would be, innovate...don't waste your time and effort correcting the short-sightedness of GW.

Delephont wrote:Doctor T

I hope you don't take my post as negative, and I'llmention right here that you idea for a Female Cadian force is very very necessary!

I think, what you're trying to do, is to fill a void in t he fluff that deals with women in the WH40K universe. Its one of my biggest bug-bears, and its what makes other Sci Fi games, in my opinion, better!

However....I feel its a great waste of your time and effort to try to distort, what is essentially, someone elses ideas to suit, what perhaps, you and I feel is an oversight on their part.

Space Marines are male...GW says so....so lets leave that point where it is. However, like your Cadian idea, why not do like some of us are doing / plan to do, and simply create your own "race" that can be used with WH40K.....that way you can set the rules, creativity, etc on your own terms.

GW Space Marines were perhaps created in a more...less enlightened time, and GW has never done anything to set this right for the more "modern" age...I guess, if it sells, then go right on selling it.

So in short, my advice would be, innovate...don't waste your time and effort correcting the short-sightedness of GW.

Actually, I don't think it has to do with short sightedness or bigotry on GW's part. I think they just decided that since their sculptors can't sculpt decent looking women, and they won't hire Werner Klocke, they just decided that all Space Marines (and most aliens) will be male.

@ Whitedragon

With respect.....thats rubbish. GW is a big company....a seriously big company, with a worldwide presents. If they wanted to sculpt women, which I don't believe they do, they'd find the capable personnel to do it.

You've only got to look at some of the independant miniature makers out there, and other companies like Corvus Bellie (Infinity range) to see how well the female fomr can be interpreted into miniature format.....

whitedragon wrote:

Actually, I don't think it has to do with short sightedness or bigotry on GW's part. I think they just decided that since their sculptors can't sculpt decent looking women, and they won't hire Werner Klocke, they just decided that all Space Marines (and most aliens) will be male.

And let's face it. While Werner Klocke is a veritable sculpting copy machine, his faces all look the same and his models are really starting to lose that "hey that's cool look" since he hasn't done anything to change the faces.. (they all look alien and squished.. )

i also understand that most of the people that play warhammer games are infact men. Im sure the demand for them to make all females in pretty low. BUT I agree that its kindda lame that they dont make more females in this game. as for Dr thunders fluff i think its fine, i too think anyone that wants to do something different from GW is pretty alright in my book. im all for creativity. just for the current minis, they still dont look like females, and ive seen the others that Dr thunder has done, so i KNOW it can happen

Delephont wrote:why not do like some of us are doing / plan to do, and simply create your own "race" that can be used with WH40K.....that way you can set the rules, creativity, etc on your own terms.

That is a really good idea, Delephont. I thank you for it.

I don't think Games Workshop is sexist in the least. There are plenty of strong women in Games Workshop fiction, Eisenhorn, Ravenor, Gaunt's Ghosts, and Ciaphas Cain all come to mind. I think the main thing is women usually aren't inclined to war and violence. The ratio of men to women in the US army is 4 to 1, last I heard. It's not an issue of sexism it's just most women aren't into the whole killing people thing.

GrandWarmasterPinto wrote:It's not an issue of sexism it's just most women aren't into the whole killing people thing.

Besides, what's wrong with being sexy?

/Nigel

GrandWarmasterPinto wrote:I don't think Games Workshop is sexist in the least. There are plenty of strong women in Games Workshop fiction, Eisenhorn, Ravenor, Gaunt's Ghosts, and Ciaphas Cain all come to mind. I think the main thing is women usually aren't inclined to war and violence. The ratio of men to women in the US army is 4 to 1, last I heard. It's not an issue of sexism it's just most women aren't into the whole killing people thing.

Yeah, but we're not talking about the fluff so much....its the miniature range thats under scrutiny. From a fluff perspective, the Imperium of the WH40K setting is nothing like current day military ideals....in the Grim future, everyone who can bleed is fair game for the military machine of the Imperial guard.....

I mean, you're talking about current parallels, but where can you find an organisation like the Adpetus Sororitas? Where the Sisters of Battle are as inclinded towards war and violence as their Brother Astartes.....

Because they are holy warriors of the Emperor who answered the call. You're either raised as a sister or join, it's not like the beat you on the head and throw you into the monastery. Not all Sororitas are warriors either. Some are just medics and spiritual guides. The Imperial Guard probably don't recruit as many women because, you know that's where babies come from and they don't want to send their baby machines to war (not my actual views on women).

GrandWarmasterPinto wrote:The Imperial Guard probably don't recruit as many women because, you know that's where babies come from and they don't want to send their baby machines to war (not my actual views on women).

That's not what the fluff says, though. The fluff says that half of all Cadian troopers are female, yet the cadian range doesn't contain a single female model. That is very irritating to people who want to make their armies fluffy.
Catachans are also a mixed force, yet GW only made one female model (of very limited usefulness), and no longer sells it.
The ranks of commissars is also mixed, yet the range is entirely male (they did make one female sculpt, but, again, no longer sell it)

I would agree with you if GW simply made fewer female IG models then male models, but the fact is they effectively make none at all. In the current IG line, I count 312 different sculpts, which includes the collectors line that are still available for purchase, with the tanith, mordian, tallern, and steel logion. Of those sculpts, 2 are female. Just two, and both of them are effectively useless, as one is the warrior women sculpt from the last chancers, who wears a weird costume and so won't fit into any army she's placed in, and one tanith girl, who suffers from the same problem. Further componding the problem is that neither are available individually.

If GW made 20 percent of their IG line female, or even 10 percent, no one would complain. The problem is, they make less then a tenth of a percent.

I think its been fairly obvious that I am not a fan of Doc. T's stuff. His skill is proven. He is an accomplished sculptor and a pretty good painter, too. The rocket boobs were over the top, but the work was top-notch.

My issues are not the execution of his ideas, but the ideas themselves. There are no female imaginary (for you, Kyoto) Space Marines. None. Why just change the entire established background? Just to satiate some adolescent hormonal desire to sculpt boobies? It's not that he made women. It's that he made women imaginary (for you again, Kyoto) SPACE MARINES. Had he done a "women of the imaginary (yes... Kyoto) Imperial Guard", I would have loved it. If he had done imaginary (guess who?) Imperial Guard women in a Guard army, I would have likely given nothing but praise. As I said, his execution is great, his idea is bad.

Delephont wrote:GW is a big company....a seriously big company, with a worldwide presents.

Hi GW. I'll take 6 Fire Prisms and a Windrider Host, please. I'm in America. Thanks.



Ghidorah

Doctor Thunder wrote:

Orlanth's suggestion of suggesting feminity via alterations to the hips and legs of the model would probably be the most "realistic" way of going about things.

Everyone suggests that, but no one notices when you do it. For my Black Widows, I widened the hips and narrowed the shoulders and even narrowed the waist, but no one ever noticed. It ends up just being a lot of wasted effort.

If you have to make female marines, that approach would actually be better. Subtle differences are always better than going over the top, which the Black Widows certainly are. Besides, bareheads aside, I don't think you would actually be able to tell...

Doc, you ever thought of using the RT era plastics as a basis for female SM? Compared to the current builds, their proportions look about right.

Ghidorah wrote:Had he done a "women of the imaginary Imperial Guard", I would have loved it. If he had done imaginary Imperial Guard women in a Guard army, I would have likely given nothing but praise.

You haven't seen these?

Ghidorah wrote: There are no female imaginary (for you, Kyoto) Space Marines. None.

There are also no imaginary 'Coruscating Death Skulls of Doom Chapter' Space Marines in the official background. Does that mean that players can't actually design their own Chapter of Space Marines?


Once again, the fluff is a starting point, not a catalogue of everything that exists within the Warhammer 40K background. It's a big galaxy.

insaniak wrote:
There are also no imaginary 'Coruscating Death Skulls of Doom Chapter' Space Marines in the official background. Does that mean that players can't actually design their own Chapter of Space Marines?

Yes, but if it was stated in the fluff that The High Lords of Terra said no one could name their (imaginary) chapter using "death," "skulls," and "doom" together in it's name, then either you would be sorely out of luck if you wanted that name, or you would have to come up with some sort of (imaginary) justification for that name (such as "They're totally rebellious and they don't care about the rules. Now they're on the run for a crime they didn't commit!).

Of course, you wouldn't have to do that if you were just modeling what a Coruscating Death Skulls of Doom Chapter (imaginary) Marine would look like. I don't think Dr. Thunder is trying to say that the Space Wolves and Ultramarines are actually hiding (imaginary) female members in their ranks.

Doctor Thunder wrote:You haven't seen these?

Oh hell. Those were yours? Why did I not associate the name? Again, the great execution, great work, AND they fit in perfectly with the Guard.

insaniak wrote:There are also no imaginary 'Coruscating Death Skulls of Doom Chapter' Space Marines in the official background. Does that mean that players can't actually design their own Chapter of Space Marines?.

Absolutely not. In fact, GW has left that option purposefully and blatantly open for us. In many background-driven images, listings, and informative text containing lists of Chapters (founding, secondary, etc.) they have left some entries as "Unknown". This allows us to make up our own. Now, if somebody were to come here and go all Pan'Fo on us like, "Lookee! Here's my army, the 'Coruscating Death Skulls of Doom Chapter'. These guys are the biggest secret of the Imperium. They are actually the REAL first chapter ever. They had co-Primarchs. They were Lion El' Jonson and Fulgrim. When the Emperor said he needed them to decide who would be the leader, they thumb-wrestled and the loser had to join a different chapter..." he would get laughed and reamed right off of the forums.

insaniak wrote:It's a big galaxy.

With a SMALL (relative) elite fighting force of imaginary (just for you Kyoto) Space Marines. With no wimmin'.



Ghidorah

Ghidorah wrote:they have left some entries as "Unknown".

Unknown.

Meaning, like, nothing is known about them...

Seeing the problem with this argument yet?


It would appear, in fact, that it is impossible to say that there are no female Space Marines... since there are all these chapters out there about which nothing is known...