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Ironhide wrote:

Per my estimate, there were 4 full-timers at the event, so that's $12k+ in cost right there.

Can't really count salaried workers pay. They are on salary, which means they get paid the same no matter how many hours they work or don't work. Now if they get paid an hourly wage, then it should get factored in. Otherwise, you can really only count travel cost and expenses.

Thats not accurate. Divide the salaried income by 52*days involved. The time involved in the tourney is a cost vs. that time being spent in other activities.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Right now, GW is very hot on Apoc, so one would conclude that Apoc is driving the most direct and indirect sales of anything they've got out there.

How do you reason that Apoc is -the- big seller? People play more Apoc games than normal games in your neck of the woods?

For me, the cost of the rules alone are enough to deter me from being serious about Apoc ($100 for just the rules and templates - before models), considering that at huge points values, games take forever, and the gigantic amount of stuff that needs to be lugged around to play such a game means that realistically - for me, opportunities for playing Apoc games are few and far between. Blowing hundereds of dollars on models and rules for a 1-2 time a year game does not make sense to me. Playing in smaller events drives the majority of my purchases - be it tweaking the army list, or building new conversions.

YMMV of course.

Frazzled wrote:Thats not accurate. Divide the salaried income by 52*days involved. The time involved in the tourney is a cost vs. that time being spent in other activities.

Frazz: It almost sounds like you are implying that they do work!

Then it could be higher. Time taken away from work projects, plus possible work delays, canceled deadlines, and the such. Of course, I would assume they would have co-workers or lesser peons to fill-in and complete tasks with minimal direction. I'd probably assume wrong though. It is GW after all.

Frazz: It almost sounds like you are implying that they do work!

Hahaha!

Ironhide wrote:Then it could be higher. Time taken away from work projects, plus possible work delays, canceled deadlines, and the such. Of course, I would assume they would have co-workers or lesser peons to fill-in and complete tasks with minimal direction. I'd probably assume wrong though. It is GW after all.

Frazz: It almost sounds like you are implying that they do work!

Hahaha!

indeed!

I had even convinced the wife to let me go to LVGT!!

JohnHwangDD wrote:As I said, if you want to quibble, start a new topic.

Apparently, a *lot* of people want to quibble, so...

I started a topic to discuss the costs and revenues in detail
____

gorgon wrote:Well, while we're "quibbling," I hazard to guess that GW also doesn't employ four events staffers with salaries of $100K+ a year.

Fine, take it to the other thread.
____

don_mondo wrote:Past years, there have been more than four actual GW personnel,

So noted. I'll address back in the other thread...
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sourclams wrote:The highest cost for an "event" is almost always the rental fee for the building you're hosting it in.

OK, as above, new thread...
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Ironhide wrote:Can't really count salaried workers pay.

Actually you have to, but that's in another thread...
____

Again, new thread to discuss the costs and revenues

keezus wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Right now, GW is very hot on Apoc, so one would conclude that Apoc is driving the most direct and indirect sales of anything they've got out there.

How do you reason that Apoc is -the- big seller?

People play more Apoc games than normal games in your neck of the woods?

For me, the cost of the rules alone are enough to deter me from being serious about Apoc ($100 for just the rules and templates - before models), considering that at huge points values, games take forever, and the gigantic amount of stuff that needs to be lugged around to play such a game means that realistically - for me, opportunities for playing Apoc games are few and far between. Blowing hundereds of dollars on models and rules for a 1-2 time a year game does not make sense to me. Playing in smaller events drives the majority of my purchases - be it tweaking the army list, or building new conversions.

YMMV of course.

I assume that GW is a bunch of ing s who would their own (fill-in-the-blank) to make an extra buck. Therefore, if GW is pimping Apoc hard, it's what makes money for them. The harder GW pushes something (40k, Spaz Marinz, Apoc, WotR), the more it's making money for them. Apoc is seeing a ton of support, so GW is raking in cash or this would have gone the route of (Dark Heresy / Talisman / any Specialist Game).

We play a lot of Apoc-based stuff in our area. We are adult gamers who don't game often, so when we game, we make the most of it. Our last Apoc scenario game, we did 3v2 with 4.5k per side in less than 5 hours, from terrain setup to the end of Turn 6, and we had a blast. Oh yeah, we broke for lunch in the middle. This could easily have been completed within 4 hours.

Rules-wise, you need one person in the group to buy, and then you share. Or you do a group buy and all pitch in. The "huge" points are on a per-side basis - if you have a 2v2 of 3k to 5k per side, you're basically playing regular 40k doubles, with some sexy stuff. Games don't have to play forever, as above. 3k Doubles will probably only add an extra hour to a what you regularly play.

But hey, if it works, do it!

To say that any of this news is a shock would be a half-lie, after all, the NPPL (one of the largest Paintball leagues in North America) just collapsed, Upper Deck (the US distributor for Yu-Gi-Oh!), went through and canned their entire tourney organization staff a few months ago, and if you look at WotC, they converted their tourney system to be more retailer-centered and spread out than the GT events YEARS ago.

Honestly, I think it would make more sense for GW to run 1, maybe 2 invitationals based on a league structure, a la DCI, and concentrate on the retailer support for the tourneys... that way you get more people playing in the stores and making it more likely that they'll buy more stuff, and hopefully lead to a greater number of permutations in player lists, due to the constraints of a limited list of units, and desires to avoid/overcome/beat cheesy lists.

But maybe that's just me.

Dronze wrote:

Honestly, I think it would make more sense for GW to run 1, maybe 2 invitationals based on a league structure, a la DCI, and concentrate on the retailer support for the tourneys... that way you get more people playing in the stores and making it more likely that they'll buy more stuff, and hopefully lead to a greater number of permutations in player lists, due to the constraints of a limited list of units, and desires to avoid/overcome/beat cheesy lists.

But maybe that's just me.

I think GW did that back in the day. winners of the local tourneys were invited to "grand" tournaments. At least I think that's how it all got started. I think most of those were in Baltimore as well..

So why not put together a system similar to the DCI, sanction a few different tourney types and see what goes? GW is already giving out prize support for indy retailers, are they not?

Besides, it would actually be kinda cool, if done correctly, to have a database and rating system for tourney players... and it's not like it would be a massive investment to develop the software (contract with the software company that wrote the DCI program, or just go to the Army Builder people), and distribute it online via retailer support...

Heck, in time, they could offer something akin to Player Rewards, and offer some free limited edition miniatures for qualifying players... But I'm getting ahead of myself. Infrastructure first, then tack-on the goodies.

two_heads_talking wrote:I think GW did that back in the day. winners of the local tourneys were invited to "grand" tournaments. At least I think that's how it all got started. I think most of those were in Baltimore as well..

Not that I know of. I attended the first USGT (Baltimore, which was the only GT that year) in 1997 and still have the shirt to prove it. There was no heat system then. The only "invitational" thing they had that first year were games between the U.S. and Canadian GT champs, held at Games Day in Baltimore and open to the public. And that was the only year they did that, I believe.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:As I said, if you want to quibble, start a new topic.

Apparently, a *lot* of people want to quibble, so...

John, I can't imagine anyone really wants to discuss this with you other than to say 1) it's very unlikely they're running up $12K in costs for four GW events staffers for one tournament, and that 2) GW events people don't make $100K+ yearly.

I've done a little trade show work. There are a lot of costs involved that people don't think about, and those might still get you to your overall event price tag or more. Without being on the inside, we can't actually know. But your figures for staffing costs are likely off based on recent GTs, which is all Don and I are saying.

@Gorgon: I'm fine with corrections. Please address the cost comments to the other thread. Thanks.

AtraAngelis wrote:Indy GT in Florida Jul 24-26

WWW.THENECRO.COM

Our group is buying 4 tickets this week for the Necro as a result of the Baltimore GT being cancelled.


Although I'm still bummed the Baltimore GT is cancelled.

Ozymandias wrote:

I had even convinced the wife to let me go to LVGT!!

Must have used your cunning linguistics...wait, I messed that up.

skkipper wrote:
they even have a bar where you can get pints between games.

What's this 'between games' nonsense? Service to the table, mate, while you're playing

I'm guessing things will return in much the same way in 2010, but no longer called GTs. They've been rebranding in Europe along these lines.

malfred wrote:

Ozymandias wrote:

I had even convinced the wife to let me go to LVGT!!

Must have used your cunning linguistics...wait, I messed that up.

heh.

Actually she was thinking of coming with me to the tournament and hitting up the Fashion Square Mall while I was gaming. She's a smart gal, knows I can't get mad on how many fething pairs of shoes she bought when I'm playing in a tournament using hundreds of dollars of small plastic men.

Depends on how much she spends on shoes, I'd guess...

That was how I used to go to the Atlanta Games Days. I get to play while my wife went off shopping for the day. Then, we'd get together with longtime friends for a great dinner and head home the next day.

Compromise. Toy soldiers and wife shopping sprees.

If they are restructuring that is one thing but canceling any sort of tournament at all is very odd. My question has always been why they didn't tie the Grand Tournaments to Games Days and hold them at the same time basically. That would reduce costs.

I would say the smarter thing to do would be to increase prize support for local gaming stores and then everyone benefits. Tournaments are run. Local stores get cash influxes and business. Games Workshop makes sales and keeps people happy.

Another thing I have been wondering is why is there a huge void of Games Workshop (both company presence and games played) at Gen Con? It is the biggest gaming con in the US. Why is there not an Indy GT there? Anyone know?

Most of the issues with a Games Workshot GT come down to two things inparticular. First is the space needed for each table and for the players at those tables this is usaly something along the lines of a 10'x6' with an isle after every 8 tables that should be as long as the hall and atleast 7' wide. What this does is require a much larger space in a convention hall for not that many people.

The second is the transportation and material cost. Basicly for each 2 people you are selling tickets for (not just those that have bought the ticket) you need a gaming table and lets say 6 pieces of terrain.

This does not even take into account the cost of the staff for the tournament and the prize support.

Now if GW brough back some of the uniqe store items that they used to have back in the day. Such as Forge World Ordering (with Free Shipping if not in stock), Bitz ordering at a discount (once again free shipping) these could also boost sales at these events due to the nature of what tournament players will buy. Any new produce comming out within a month or so should also be on sale for those at the tournament.

There is a good bit that GW can do to make the tournaments more poffitable but on its own it won't make that much money.

gorgon wrote:

two_heads_talking wrote:I think GW did that back in the day. winners of the local tourneys were invited to "grand" tournaments. At least I think that's how it all got started. I think most of those were in Baltimore as well..

Not that I know of. I attended the first USGT (Baltimore, which was the only GT that year) in 1997 and still have the shirt to prove it. There was no heat system then. The only "invitational" thing they had that first year were games between the U.S. and Canadian GT champs, held at Games Day in Baltimore and open to the public. And that was the only year they did that, I believe.

perhaps the 'invitational' is what I'm thinking of.. To be honest, I moved to the NO. VA. area in 1999-2000 time frame, so that's when I was introduced to the whole 'invitational' thing.. Did it evolve from 1997 to a different format by 1999?

Does this mean more non-GW parts can start sneaking in to tourney armies? Do indy GTs get (or need) prize support or promotion from GW with restrictions attached, or are most indys totally, well, independent of all GW support?

Indy GT's DO NOT get prize support from GW. We must rely on our local retailers to help with prize support which dries up the support in the area for at least a month. Through advertising, marketing, etc...you may be able to get more but it does not come from GW. GW however started to throw in some terrain support to the Indy events but this year that was a little harder to get. I think honestly it had more to do with the restructure and the fact that they are watching every dollar. The events staff at GW want to help as much as they can but they are getting some pressure from above.

Personally I like the fact that most of the Indy GT's were higher point armies. Ours was 2k and most others are 1850. GW's 1750 does not do anything for our local tourny groups and we hunt for the Indy GT's.

If they are restructuring that is one thing but canceling any sort of tournament at all is very odd. My question has always been why they didn't tie the Grand Tournaments to Games Days and hold them at the same time basically. That would reduce costs.

They tried it at Chicago if I recall. I think they got a large amount of complaints due to the fact that they GT players could not do anything at the GD but old age is getting the best of me and I cant recall.

I was at Adepticon this weekend and this proves that large tourny events can happen...and happen at a profit. They just cant be a secondary item that is done half way. In building up my Indy GT circuit we knew we would lose money over the first few years as we were not established but eventually the event will turn a profit. GW is already established and if they put real effort into it they could turn a great event with profit but the upper eschelan in GW wont let the event guys put the right amount of effort into it.

Negativemoney wrote:Now if GW brough back some of the uniqe store items that they used to have back in the day. Such as Forge World Ordering (with Free Shipping if not in stock), Bitz ordering at a discount (once again free shipping) these could also boost sales at these events due to the nature of what tournament players will buy. Any new produce comming out within a month or so should also be on sale for those at the tournament.

There is a good bit that GW can do to make the tournaments more poffitable but on its own it won't make that much money.

Let's see. Forgeworld ordering - they did that and stopped. Bitz discounts - they did that and stopped. On-site store - did that and stopped. Provided lunch Sat and Sun - did that and stopped. One year (out of the ten I attended Baltimore's GT) you could order bitz and models on arrival and on Sat, and they'd drop them off at your table on Sunday. Talk about service. Ah, the good old days.

I agree that these things should be part and parcel to the GT experience, and they used to do them, but for whatever reason they stopped.

The format has always been the same for the GTs. As Gorgon mentioned, they did do a US champ versus Canadian champ once or twice, but that was it. The only other big change was moving from hotels (@100 attendees) to the convention centers.

Ironhide wrote:

Why don't they just combine GD and GT? Seems they would get even bigger turn-outs if they did.

You mean like the Chicago GT/Games Days for 207, 2006, and maybe even 2005? Yeah, been there, done that.

Cruentus, I have been to all the GTs you have, and that is why I mentioned it.

I do miss the good old days of GTs.

I hope I'm not getting into this post to late. Battle Foam is actually hosting an Indy GT this year in Phoenix. The information is below.

We are having a 40K tournament with the following details.


THE BATTLE FOAM WILD WEST SHOOT OUT held at Empire Games

60 person 40k tournament.

$50.00 entrance fee

3 Day event starting Oct 16, 17, and 18

Over $1000.00 in prizes for the winners.

Lunch will be provided by us at Battle Foam for both days.

A rough trader market will be held all day Friday so bring your Forgeworld and unwanted minis.

Everyone will get a free t-shirt, dice, and objective token from one of the missions.

5 great missions that have not been see before.

Must have a fully painted and based 1750 point army.

The best part is the 40k Radio crew will be broadcasting from our location all weekend. Saturday night after the last game players can stick around and do the live 40k bar conversation. Spencer and Scott will be there to field questions and talk 40k.

Sales for the tickets will be up on the Battle Foam site on May 1st.

Its time for us to pick up the slack for GW.

Hope you guys come out.

Romeo
Battle Foam

Hmmm... Phoenix is about the same distance as Las Vegas...

Romeo, whereabouts in Phoenix will this be?

I'd fly down to AZ if the points limit was 1850. Plus ASU has a football game on Saturday. Hmmmmmmmmm

maybe its an april joke