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Sad to hear hopefully they will be back next year

At least people will save the $125 entry fee + travel costs, and be able to use it to buy more minis.

They're probably gone for good. Just look how GW (Mostly Jervis) demonizes 'Tournament Players'...And goes off on how much tournament players are a minority.

I doubt they are gone for good. I think they were unable to get both Canadian GT/conflicts and US GTs going while the consolidation was still taking place. What we will probably see is one big circuit in US and Canada. I for one would be glad to see one large circuit -- cheaper for me to attend a Canadian GT in Vancouver or Edmonton then one in Baltimore. Would also mean Astronomicon would probably be added to the circuit as an indie, which is pretty cool as well. Time will tell.

Nurgleboy77 wrote:There are lots of good Indy GTs out therem and they are infinitely better than GTs. And they actually give out (Gasp!) PRIZES!

The GW GTs are well-run, and *much* better run than most local tournaments.

Regarding prizes, I got over $150 in stuff for winning Best Army Appearance at Baltimore last year. I assume the overall winner probably got $200+ in merchandise. How many local tournies pony up like that?

Hulksmash wrote:For every adepticon though guys there is a broadside bash. At a GWGT you knew what you were gonna get, every time. The level has always been consistant. With indy GT's your never totally sure about what your getting until you show up. Just because one event (Adepticon) runs a great event doesn't mean that all Indy's do. Having attended multiple indy and GW ran GT's I have to say I've always enjoyed GWGT's and that they generally put on a good show.

Nail on the head.

winterman wrote:I doubt they are gone for good. I think they were unable to get both Canadian GT/conflicts and US GTs going while the consolidation was still taking place. What we will probably see is one big circuit in US and Canada. I for one would be glad to see one large circuit -- cheaper for me to attend a Canadian GT in Vancouver or Edmonton then one in Baltimore. Would also mean Astronomicon would probably be added to the circuit as an indie, which is pretty cool as well. Time will tell.

Yep. You figure the GWUS events guys are now what, a two-man operation with Dave Taylor gone? And now they probably have responsibility for Canadian events too? Yikes. Let's give them a year to sort things out.

And come on, guys. Jervis has nothing to do with this. Jervis leads the design team in the UK and not the events team in the US/Canada. Blame Jervis for Codex: CSM, not operational stuff like this.

Too bad they also got rid of the Gamesday Tournaments.

That is unfortunate. Guess my current project gets put on hold then. Does that mean there is no Ardboys tournaments either?

Fine by me. Indy tournaments are far better in my opinion. the Exterminatus tourney in TN last month was very well done, and i had a blast.

Well damn, glad I made the trip to Adedpticon then, and Ill just have to shift my buget to go to more of the indy events. I have to say that the apnosphere her at adepticon is much more like a full convention than a typical GT. Just with there was something like this closer to phill. I just drove 12 hours to get here, for the one day event tomorrow. (could not get a team together, and did not decidde to go in time to put a gladiator army together)
still its a shame, baltimore is one of my favorite cities, I will miss GT followed by dinner at phillips harbor place

The one thing that the GT's usual have over the indy events is that the GT's are 5 games over two days. Most Indy GT's are only 3 games or in some extreme circumstances 4 games in one day.

The 5 game format is very nice if you've never done it. It's also a bit more relaxed because they have more time in each round.

I've heard of maybe 1 indy that is actual multi-day's, although I haven't done many of the indy tournaments.

wonder if the Baltimore Battle Bunker is going to step up and run stuff during that weekend...not that they could handle the larger crowds, but with the circuit set as it is, there aren't any events in the NE at all and that just plain sucks.

Off the top of my head, I look at it as a sound corporate decision by GW. GW (via Jervis) repeatedly states that Tournaments are not core to how they intend their games to be played, nor the sort of player that GW encourages. It is abundantly clear from all anecdotes and examples that GW wants players to be hobbyists first, concentrating on campaign-oriented play. It is no accident that every single main rulebook starts with TMIR and closes with mini-campaign rules or examples featuring linked missions, but never includes tournament rules or suggestions.

Now the tournament crowd on Dakka is vocal, and they kept saying "if GW didn't intend for Tournaments, they should cancel them, but as they still host them, obviously, GW intends Tournament play". I think GW's most recent announcement here puts that argument to bed. If Tournament play really did drive sales and encourage players, GW would continue to host at least 1 GT (Baltimore).

I think GW probably got a very good read on the NA economy, and is tightening down on all sub-optimal activities that don't clearly generate significant new and extra sales. Hence, the US restructuring, closing Canada, ending Tournaments, and shelving Dark Eldar in favor of Apocalypse, Planetstrike campaign, LotR expansion to WotR, and the Imperial Guard release.

/John
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Grimhowl wrote:If these events weren't generating the kind of investment they anticipated it's an easy decision for corporate HQ to decide not to spend that money.

People have met each other at GT's that never would have met face to face otherwise.

I don't think GW's GTs ever generated positive cash flow, at least not if a proper accounting were applied. I think these were always budgeted as Marketing events. Now that Apoc is in place and running strong, GW doesn't need the artifice of 1500-2250 pt GTs to push sales. 3k minimums for Apoc, and triple-unit Datasheets do that far more efficiently that GT lists ever did.

BTW, People will meet each other at Indy GTs, too.
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Polonius wrote:I think that GW realized that they can't afford to run a GT with paid staff that can compete with the Indy GTs and their volunteer staff.

Yup. In a lean economy, if they don't need the marketing exposure, then they shouldn't pay to compete with free.
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J'santai Khan wrote:Maybe Jervis is driving home his point - At the end of a very large sword!?!?

I think so, too.

Wow John. Wow.

What if my hobby is competative gaming? Just cause it's not your hobby doesn't mean it's not mine.

How does GW not want people playing when the tournement scene in england and europe is as strong as ever. They haven't cancelled the GT's there have they (on the continent where Jervis actually works)?Hmmm.....sounds to me like it isn't a decision to force player to be "hobbyists" but exactly what they said. The merger this year is causing a lot of issues as is losing a member of the event team.

And it's not the 1500-2250 that promotes more sales. Tournements do promote sales. Those of us that like to play competitively(sp?) probably have as many points at you do John, just spread out over several armies. It does sell, just in a different way. The reason being we like to change and tweak. You don't need to buy more stuff during a new edition since you play Apoc games but we do because we need to tweak based on new rules. Heck, i've got over 10k (maybe more) in imperial armies (sisters/sm/gk/ig), 3 k in orks, 2.5k in Nids, and another 5k in chaos. That's not even counting fantasy.

They have cancelled GT's before when they weren't going thru a merger and a lean time in the US.

And I hate to break it to you but they should have easily broken even on all sell out GT's except for the LVGT's when they ran them. The only reason the LVGT wouldn't be a break is because they hold it in a major hotel.

The LAGT's and Seattle GT's when we had them sold out. 250+ players paying $90 each (just for the tourney) so $13,500 not counting additional sales at the event itself. Let's see, GW made the tables once and used them for over 8 years. They own the truck that transports them. They use them for Gamesdays and GT's alike. They borrowed staff from local GW's (normally 2-3 redshirts, a local manager) and 3-4 HQ guys. They should be easily recouping unless they are bleeding somewhere I've never seen (and I worked for them for a few years).

Oh, and the support they have been giving Indy GT's is insane if they are giving out the amount on average that they gave to some of the local groups around here. If they didn't support tournements would they be shelling out for most of the terrain for the Indy's and prizes?

Just a few thoughts to add

I think the GWGTs will be back. In 2006 they only had one and it was in Chicago. Is this the last nail in the coffin for competitive gamers? No of course not. Will Apoc take over? Again no of course not. There over 10 locally run tournaments in Florida this month. Tournaments will always be very popular. There are over 1000 people here at Adepticon this year.

G

Hulksmash wrote:Wow John. Wow.

What if my hobby is competative gaming? Just cause it's not your hobby doesn't mean it's not mine.

Dude, I don't know where you coming from with this. Nowhere did I say that you were "bad" for playing Tournaments.

Well, that's a real shame.

In Germany the situation is a bit messy. GW decided to cancel the Heats and organize one large event for each system (LotR, 40k, Fantasy). Its called Thorne of Skulls. But they had bad luck so far to find appropriate places for these events.

You didn't say I was bad. You said that GW wants us to be hobbyists first. I'm just pointing out that that is part of my hobby and many other peoples. You heavily implied that tournements aren't part of the hobby.

Oh, and excellent job on not answering any of the logical counters to your statements

*GW* has said that they want us to be hobbyists first. That's what Jervis keeps trying to pound into people's tiny brains with his missives from the Ivory Tower and similar statements on the ground.

As for answering, they're mostly speculative.

We don't know the actual costs, but I can tell you that $13.5k revenue isn't a lot of money when you're talking about renting a conference hall that's staffed with union labor. For reference, that's a smaller budget than the average wedding ($20k+, was pushing $30k in many areas).

If GW has 4 management / developer guys attending, that's 2 days on the ground plus 2 days travel = 4 days per person, = 16 staff days. With salaries likely $50/hr ($80/hr after benefits), then you're looking at $640/person/day. So 16 manager / developer days is $10k just in staff costs.

Throw in 12 hotel nights ($40/night - double occupancy), and that's another $480 in lodging.

Add 16 days of meals ($40/day - high COLA areas), and shared transportation ($10/day), and that's $1280 more.

So far, I have:
$10,240 staff
$480 lodging
$1,280 meals & transportation

That's $12k just for the GW featured guests.

I haven't added in hall, the truck, the shipping or any of the other stuff, but yeah, GW almost certainly lost at least $10k per event. Probably, closer to $25k per event.

The on-site store can be excluded, as one can pretend that it covers it's own cost. But the event itself? Almost certainly not.
____

Note, if you want to quibble on the numbers, feel free. Just remember that this is corporate travel so salaries, travel costs and such will apply. Go ahead and start a new topic, and we can go over it in detail.

What really strikes as odd in this case is that GW are scrapping the US while running the EU(mainly brit.) to the same extent.

There are lots of "fan run" tournaments over here also but GW arent cutting their stuff because of that, so that points can be the main reason they are dumping US. Getting it run free etc. would affect both in similar ways if that was the case.

I really have no clue why they are doing this(but a good bet would be profit, since GWs profit hunger has reached alarming levels over the years), but it cant be for the better. It definently looks like they are cutting back on the US/Canadian markets with the latest changes though.

JohnHwangDD wrote:*GW* has said that they want us to be hobbyists first.

And for the millionth time every time someone mentions "The GW Hobby", this is an absolute bunk statement. What is a hobbyist? Someone who does something that is NOT their profession. GW doesn't run professional tournaments like Wizards and the DCI, so a GW Tournament Player IS being a Hobbyist. GW deludes themselves by saying crap like this to get out of things and claiming it's all in their interest and love for "The Hobby". It's complete and utter bull gak.

I'm not a big tournament player, I wanted to go to Vegas to hang out with my friend for the weekend, get in a bunch of games, and motivate myself to complete an army to the best of my ability(in other words: "be a hobbyist"). GW says otherwise. So now, I'm going to save up the money I was going to use to enter the tourney and probably pick up some FW stuff from there and go to Vegas that weekend anyway(I love not having to get a hotel) and spend it on something else. Congrats on losing yourself ~$400-500 in sales and tickets, GW.

Wise up GW: Everything we do concerning you is part of "The Hobby" and doing anything that prevents that ruins "The Hobby".

Platuan4th wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:*GW* has said that they want us to be hobbyists first.

And for the millionth time every time someone mentions "The GW Hobby", this is an absolute bunk statement. What is a hobbyist? Someone who does something that is NOT their profession. GW doesn't run professional tournaments like Wizards and the DCI, so a GW Tournament Player IS being a Hobbyist. GW deludes themselves by saying crap like this to get out of things and claiming it's all in their interest and love for "The Hobby". It's complete and utter bull gak.

I'm not a big tournament player, I wanted to go to Vegas to hang out with my friend for the weekend, get in a bunch of games, and motivate myself to complete an army to the best of my ability(in other words: "be a hobbyist"). GW says otherwise. So now, I'm going to save up the money I was going to use to enter the tourney and probably pick up some FW stuff from there and go to Vegas that weekend anyway(I love not having to get a hotel) and spend it on something else. Congrats on losing yourself ~$400-500 in sales and tickets, GW.

Wise up GW: Everything we do concerning you is part of "The Hobby" and doing anything that prevents that ruins "The Hobby".

Jervis and AgeOfEgos are now in a basement somewhere plotting your ultimate doom, downfall and destruction...

Alpharius wrote:Jervis and AgeOfEgos are now in a basement somewhere plotting your ultimate doom, downfall and destruction...

I welcome their attempt, I'm ready for 'em.

I think what John is trying to say is that Jervis, either on his own or speaking more broadly for GW, sees the actual playing of the game as a fairly small part of the hobby. Now, I"m guessing they see buying endless amounts of minis at the largest part, so they're not exactly unbiased, but I'm guessing that's their point.

Of course, the tragedy behind that is that GTs are the ultimate celebration of the hobby: you will never see more beautiful armies, more interesting themes, better done conversions, etc. than at a GT. I think GW is aware of this, and they're simply axing the GTs for fiscal, and not philosophical, reasons.

gorgon wrote:
The GW GTs are well-run, and *much* better run than most local tournaments.

I don't know were you got this from, we are not talking about a local 3 round RTT but 2 day 5 round tournaments with at least 40 players. The Independent circuit in the US and Australia blows the doors off of any official events. GW tournaments have been in severe decline for at least 5-6 years.

the uk one is easy.
they own the facility
all they have to pay for is staff.
they even have a bar where you can get pints between games.

Too bad AgeofEgos knows be my name and face now. I can't make fun of him (as much).

JohnHwangDD wrote:
I don't think GW's GTs ever generated positive cash flow, at least not if a proper accounting were applied. I think these were always budgeted as Marketing events.

I'll agree that the GTs did not directly create a positive cash flow. But what about indirectly? Let me tell you about the origins of the IronFist League. Way back when, 8 or 9 years ago, a small group of us were planning on attending the Baltimore GT, so we banded together and started a league, to give us an opportunity to play and prepare for the GT against other "competitive" gamers. That league grew in to a large club (over 100 paid members last year). Over twenty attendees at the Baltimore GT last year. That club has introduced or re-introduced dozens, if not hundreds of players into/back into the GW gaming hobby over the years. We've run tourneys, leagues, campaigns, held modelling, painting, and casting days, run demos and intro events, etc etc etc. Our annual Toys for Tots event (Six years now, IIRC) has raised thousands for TfT and dozens of boxes of toys. All because a half dozen or so guys wanted to get together and practice up for a GT. Had there been no GT, there might not have been an IFL. Point being, the IFL has indirectly generated thousands and thousands of dollars in sales. And many of the players I've met over the years at the GTs are just as involved in building their gaming communities and promoting the hobby. So even if only 10 percent of the GT players are as actively involved in promoting GW as the IFL did, then the indirect sales generated by the GTs do far outweigh the cost of the event. But, sadly, that can't be measured.

And yes, the IFL will continue to reach out and run events. Got a bunch of Cub Scouts coming by in a couple weeks for a gaming night. Might get the Boy Scouts down the road. We've already got a bunch of leagues, campaigns and tourneys planned or in the planning process. And of course, several have jumped up and are wondering what we can do to fill the GT void here in northern VA/southern MD.
But the biggest drawback to us doing something like that is the fact that we're the ones having to run it. That means many of us cannot participate and play. For me, that was always one of the biggest draws of the GTs. The fact that I wasn't working the event. Over the years at the GTs, I've helped set up, tear down, run registration, anything else that needed doing. Hell, I once drove to Toronto to help run one there. But come start time on Saturday morning, I'm at my table ready to play and enjoy the GT. That's what I'll miss. Anyways, I can indeed hope that they're just restructuring and that the GTs will be back next year. And yes, I know about the indy GTs. But alas, none of them are close by and easy to attend. Thinking about the Waaagh now that I've got some cash freed up, but there is a bit of a difference between driving 1 1/2 hours to get to a GT and driving 12+ hours to get to the Waaagh.

Polonius wrote:
Of course, the tragedy behind that is that GTs are the ultimate celebration of the hobby: you will never see more beautiful armies, more interesting themes, better done conversions, etc. than at a GT. I think GW is aware of this, and they're simply axing the GTs for fiscal, and not philosophical, reasons.

Amen to that, brother!

Lets not get into another hobby only elitest vs tournament players (who have a fun time competative or hobby) arguement.

Back on subject, its a bumer there gone but will most likely give the indy scene motivation for 2010 and GTs or not it will be the best tournament season yet!! Take that Jervis.hehe.

saw54 wrote:Lets not get into another hobby only elitest vs tournament players (who have a fun time competative or hobby) arguement.

Great way to avoid arguments, there.