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IIRC Templecon is held in Rhode Island in February. The d6G hosted a participation game of Uncharted Seas there this year. They talk about it in episode 25.

There's a long list of gaming conventions on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gaming_conventions

Time--between work, wife, children, etc. I can game once a week, sometimes only once every other week. I suppose when the small fries are older I'll play other systems with them.

To answer the question about what is stopping me from playing other systems. I will reply time, money, and how much other people want to play it. First off time is a major factor. There is RL out there and if you spend alot of it playing a game (painting, making list, reading rules over and over, etc.) then you miss out on so much more. After you spend your hard earned dough on a game that spends alot of time sitting in the closet instead of taking a road trip to somewhere fun, then you kind of wonder if it was a good "entertainment" investment. And of course, especially for people in small towns, if you dont have the players then why invest in a system, or another system, that nobody plays. I have come across all these problems. I dont play Warhammer 40k much anymore and as much that I have tried could not really get interested in Warhammer Fantasy (rules are good, but not to interested; plus the ending of the Storm of Chaos kind of put me off of the whole thing) because of all these factors, and would find it hard to get into another system because of this.

However since some I have seen put a plug in for some systems, I will shamelessly put in one for Axis and Allies Naval Minatures. The rules are relatively simple. You can play those what-if scenarios (like if the Bismark more supporting ships and aircraft) and you get a little bit of history with it. I usually look up the ships I get on Wikipedia and look up the history behind the ship. Plus after reading about the Battle of Samar and other instances where it was by the GRace of God that the Allies had got a lucky shot in (for example the damaged rudder of the Bismark) or just engineered a new device (breathing apparatus on the USS Enterprise) a person may think that maybe the Axis powers had a bit of a better chance of having a different outcome of events.

Just my 2 cents on the matter. Hope to be getting back into 40k soon though later and get a battle report in.

I think in the UK we do have much more opportunity to try different games.

Within 25 miles max of my house I could attend either a games club or store opening late 5 nights a week and only one of those is a GW store.

At 2 of the clubs I could guarantee to get a historical game of one sort or another and a fantasy or sci fi game at the other.

Then as I have room for a table at my home I can play what I like with whom ever I chose.

I play Epic and Bloodbowl from GW, my interest in the core games died a while ago. After that I play a variety of ancient games, WWII, modern.

For me to get into another system I need...

1) time
2) money
3) enough friends who will play too

#3 is the worst for me. In my club, it's fantasy & 40k exclusively. Most members have armies for Mortheim or Battlefleet Gothic too. I'm sure a few will be into Space Hulk too. But that's it.

I wasted my money on a Skorne army for Hordes because no one can play with me, and I can't get to the local store on warmachine night. I thought it was a fun game, but no one else wants to pick it up. Well there's 1 guy with a big Cygnar army but thats it. Other members in the club are having the same problem with Flames of War.

So for me, i'm better off sticking with GW stuff. It's what we all play. I still love the models and the game is always fun even when the rules start getting crazy.

Only thing that slows my entry into a new system is availability of product. I've yet to see an AT43 model in person. I like to have it tangible before I go whole hog and buy rules and 2 armies.

I've got an asset that a lot of people don't - a gamer spouse. So long as I buy two armies (ohnoes!) I can get away with a new game.

I've seen AT-43 brand new in their boxes, and, aside from the Therians, they're not interesting. The Therians are kinda small compared to Necrons, but at least they look cool.

I've been stuck on Warhammer and Warhammer 40k for a long time. Mostly because it's a reliable system that has a lot of people playing it. Plus the rules are fairly straightforward and easy to pick up, despite the little nuances and hiccups that pop up.

I've been interested in Warmachine, but once again, the absolutely insane cost to start has turned me off.

So the things people would need to step over to a new system are:
-need for opponents
-reasonably prized models of good quality
-good storyline
-regular updates on products/site/game/etc

Malika2 wrote:So the things people would need to step over to a new system are:
-need for opponents
-reasonably prized models of good quality
-good storyline
-regular updates on products/site/game/etc

Those are the "carrots". I think many would also need a hefty "stick" in the form of massive reduction in the availability of WFB/40k as well though.

While it is so relatively easy to engage in them, I think many just don't see the point/can't be bothered to switch. Even if the alternatives appear cheaper and "better".

I guess its a form of automatism, why go for something new if you already have something else, even if the new stuff is better and cheaper. People tend to be very "conservative" when it comes to actual change (yes we all yell we want change, but at the end of the day we want it to more or less to stay the same as we already know it).

I doubt the "stick" as you put it would be there since GW is practically everywhere. This would have been easier lets day 10 to 15 years ago when GW's only tended to have its stores in the UK, the rest of world primarily relying on independent stores.

Malika2 wrote:I doubt the "stick" as you put it would be there since GW is practically everywhere. This would have been easier lets day 10 to 15 years ago when GW's only tended to have its stores in the UK, the rest of world primarily relying on independent stores.

Well, the recent price rises were looking pretty "sticky" for a while...

GW's prices have proved enough of an incentive for many of us to put that bit of effort into doing something else...

And if GW get their sums wrong and have to close more stores any time soon...

What is stopping me from trying another system? The twenty year backlog of terrific GW product I own. But seriously, I'm much more concerned with the models and their appearance than the game system and I like GW models better than anyone else's.

When I started buying miniatures in 1989 I bought from what at the time was the "big three": Ral Partha, Grenadier and then GW. Most of the purchases I made of Grenadier and Ral Partha models got pushed aside and never painted after I discovered Citadel miniatures. Apparently, a lot of people felt the same way as Ral Partha and Grenadier disappeared from the scene. They made a lot of nice looking stuff, but overall GW's unique style won me and a lot of others over. Now, if Jes Goodwin ever left for another miniatures company, that might make a difference to me, otherwise, I'll stick to the models I like best and keep chipping away at the never ending backlog.

Funny to see this topic thread now. I have a box of wonderful Ral Partha DragonLance Draconian miniatures I never painted due to my falling into Warhammer. I'll be putting them up on eBay this coming Sunday night. It's a shame because they are some of the nicest looking miniatures I ever bought, but with my passion for other models taking precedence, they never got the attention they deserved.

George Spiggott wrote:

avantgarde wrote:With the superior playability, quality of models and clarity of rules of GW's products I feel no need to even look at other systems.

Pffffft!! Models are nice I'll give you that.

I was thinking "One out of three aint bad" as well...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I've been interested in Warmachine, but once again, the absolutely insane cost to start has turned me off.

Care to elaborate?

the starters are all around what $50 and come with the stat cards for models and quickstart rules. Battleboxes represent the "mangled metal" format of the game which is 350pts. and is a fun format. I own thousands of points of my chosen WM army and yet still play mangled metal games regularly. One does not have to buy 500-750+ points of models to play.


The standard game size of 500-750pts. can be built for around $100 for a full force if one uses standard internet discount to one's advantage. How much of a 40K army can you build for $100?

For $100, I can field 1500 pts of AoBR marines.

The problem is Warmachine armies have far less models.

You might as well compare Warmachine to Mordheim or something.

JohnHwangDD wrote:For $100, I can field 1500 pts of AoBR marines.

Marines are about all you'll get away with, and not after the price increase. WM is a cheaper game.

The game scales are different. It's not like it's graven in stone that 40k must be played at the 1500+ pt level. 40k can play at 500-1000 pts, which is quite a bit cheaper. WM/H can play larger, which would be more expensive.

Its funny, alot of people are saying that GW makes the "best" miniatures availible, and I find this statement sooooo hard to swallow.

Personally, I would say I'm more a miniatures painter (center of my interest) than a wargamer, but I use the wargame rules to justify my constant spending on miniatures

But, having a main interest in minatures as opposed to rules, I can safely say that GW is one of the least accomplished miniatures manufacturers....please don't make me talk about their fantasy battle range.....please.

Some of the Wh40K stuff is ok, but thats just it, its ok....

As far as the rules themsleves go, yes, they appear to be playable, a little simple, U GO I GO, type of affair, but ideal if you want a relatively quick game.

The fluff is expansive, as you'd expect for a game with so many years behind it.....however, I think this leads to its main drawback....its stale, WH40K fluff is stale as out of date bread! The writers of said fluff must have gotten their writing inspiration from The Mr Men range of childrens books.....

All in all, there should be nothing holding back your average adult from not only looking, but wanting to branch out into other gaming areas.

The ones who state that GW is the only product producer for them, and please don't take offence to this, in my opinion, must be very young indeed.

JohnHwangDD wrote:The game scales are different. It's not like it's graven in stone that 40k must be played at the 1500+ pt level. 40k can play at 500-1000 pts, which is quite a bit cheaper. WM/H can play larger, which would be more expensive.

Do you want to do an honest comparison or keep talking sideways? Sure 40K can be played at the 100pt. level if you wanted, but you and I both know that it isn't and won't be. 40K is rarely played at less then 1500pts. by the vast majority of the player base, and if it is it is because people have what are considered incomplete forces or they are playing some gimmick game as the result of a campaign scenario requirement, etc.

This is a fact.

Sure you can play 1500pts. of AOBR marines if you want to play an army of all tactical squads and a dreadnoughts. Most marine armies are NOT made up of all tact squads and dreadnoughts however. Yes you CAN do it, but the vast majority of players don't and wouldn't.

WM is often played at the 500pt level. Most starters get you over 200 pts. of this at present, another unit or two a warjack and a solo or two easily gets you a full army with a variety of model/unit types.

Wm is cheaper to build a "real" army (not an army of all single pose tact. marines) to the standard game size then 40K every time. 100% fact.

I play both games and have thousands of points in each system. None of my WM armies cost anywhere neasr as much as my 40K armies.

IF you don't like WM or are in love with GW that is fine, but lets keep the facts straight...

In Western Australia, GW is the only wargaming company. I believe some other miniatures are stocked in small amounts by one store that has been forced into a low-vis basement across the other side of the capital city from the GW store, but thats just rumor.

Around here most people do a double-take if you ask them if they've heard of Rackham or Confrontation, or even Battlefleet Gothic or Bloodbowl. Hell most people haven't heard of Dark Eldar, and there's only one other guy I know who knows what squats were.

So around here, I play GW because there is literally no other real wargaming alternative.

CT GAMER wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:The game scales are different.

Do you want to do an honest comparison or keep talking sideways?

Wm is cheaper to build a "real" army

IF you don't like WM or are in love with GW that is fine, but lets keep the facts straight...

I hardly consider 500 pts of WM a "real" army - it's a small skirmish force, whereas 40k is a large skirmish force.

And fact for fact, my dollars don't go as far with WM, when I look at playable models per dollar spent as any kind of metric. Especially when one factors in how WM milks you into buying all of their rulebooks.

Now if Retribution is any indication, WM is going to cost just as much as GW, except you'll have half the minis, and they'll look worse to boot.

The way around game rules inertia is to host games. That is to say one player collects all there really is to collect up to a comfortable points cap in a single game system and others then ignore it.

Around here virtually everyone only plays Warhammer and 40K, some of the kiddies play LOTR but they dont really count.

However I host Battlefleet Gothic, that is to say I have many fleets and bring more than I need to a game, one for me, others to loan out. I also host Warmachine and am also collecting At-43 for the intention of hosinting that too, and also host Descent, though as a self contained boardgame, albeit one with many attachments it doesnt really count.

A friend of mine is hosting Confrontation and Flames of War under the same principles, another hosts Wargods of Aegyptus and a third hosts Mordheim.

While I loan out my 40K armies too I dont count that as hosting as most gamers have thier own, though I certainly have enough to host. My Warhammer fantasy armies are larger but fewer, I font have enough to share around.

Looking at it, a lot of people cite money.

Well, I may not be a Sentinel, but I can point to AT-43's Army Boxes that are coming out.

The Red Block's box has a 12 man squad, an 8 man squad, a 6 man elite squad, a pair of heroes and their strider (let's call it a dreadnought or vehicle), and the DOTCH YAGA, which is a big ol' vehicle. So, in basic terms, 3 infantry squads and two vehicles (plus dice, tape measure, terrain, etc, but we're not counting that now). The 40k value would be.....what, $35 for the first squad (we'll call it a full tac squad equiv), $20 for the second (combat squad), we'll just call the elite troops Sternguard, so another $35, and two vehicles, each at $40. Total is $170.

Rackham sells it for $70. Furthermore, they're pre-painted; if you don't like it, then you can just prime and paint them yourself. Oh, and it also comes with a copy of their "Introductory Rules" and army book. Do you want to add in another....what, $30 for the 'dex, and....$25 for the rules?

If you're comparing army boxes, then you need to use a GW army box, either AoBR or a Battalion Box.

The gamers in my area have been bitten a few times. Games are kinda scarce in the Southeastern US and the games that are played are GW related. Warmachine/Hordes, AT43, Flames of War, have all come and gone and while some folks bought armies it never reached a critical mass to keep folks playing.

Wolfstan wrote:The club that I belong to is looking to run a gaming Open Day to promote gaming. The idea is to get together the known clubs in our area and have them all host a different system. This then lets other gamers know what clubs are around and what systems are supported.

With this on my mind I stumbled in to the above idea for this post. On DakkaDakka there can be quite heated posts about GW and their systems. People moan about the rules and the cost of the models, so I was wondering if people actually look at other systems? If not why not, what is stopping you playing another system?

Having played 40k for a large chunk of my gaming life, and having stopped about 3 years ago, I find that that there are other systems out there that give me as much satisfaction as any GW ruleset.

I currently play:

Rules of Engagement
Urban War
Metropolis
Pirates
Confrontation 3
AT43

I will also be play, once I've finished the forces:

PBI
AK47
Flames of War
Infinity
Hell Dorado

I enjoy all of the above and have no problem with never playing 40k again, although I may do some 40k in 40 minute forces in the future.

I LOLed this post.

Where to start, where to start...

Nothing stops people from trying other systems. Its the cost to get in that keeps them from coming back.

COST is the major issue. Cost in time, and cost in cash.

Personally, I can say that I have pretty much played since the inception of GW, and on the whole, gaming companies come and go. People can "Claim" that GW will be the be all and end all, but this train of thought forgets the Avalon Hill days, the GDW days, and the FASA days.

Avalon hill was a once forerunner of the gaming world. WW2, Historicals, Squad Leader, etc. etc.etc. They had alot of games that kept people coming back for more, as the inception of the computer, though, they could see the writing on the wall, and we all know what happened next.
$ $ $

Games I've played have been fun. even if I try a game one or two times, I'm one to buy a model or two and paint it up to see how it feels, have a couple on hand to play here and there, and along with my craptasticly bad buisness sense, I will either buy sell or trade the minis into oblivion.

Battletech.
Warhammer Fantasy
Warhammer 40K
Epic
Titan Legions
Battlefleet gothic
Necromunda
Mordhiem
Man o War
Starship troopers
D and D ( grenada minis)
Reaper's Warlord
Steel Legion
Mutant Chronicals
Warmachine
Hordes
Flames of War
Judge Dredd, ( two different games on equal ends of the suck spectrum)
Void
Vor
Legend of the Five Rings
Civil War
WW3
Twilight: 2000 with 1/72d minis
A couple of different Star Trek games
A couple of different Babylon five games
AE WW2
Secrets of the 3d riech
Spinespur
Superfigs
and...

green army men.

I've tried most everything on the market. some I pick up and play for a bit, then put in the back burner. Others, I play and keep around for a laugh.
Still others....

I can't GIVE away the minis and books for, so hence, I get stuck with a turd.

Honestly, I can say that the old school games with the cardboard chits were more fun for a FUN experience that made you want to play more.
The minis are just an advance form of them. Tabletop mini's in itself is a heck of an investment. Even more when you have asstastic companiers charge extream prices for the product, then they go and end up shlocking thier own product, so in essence, you as a player end up getting the shaft.

MONGOOSE cough cough..

Actions from one company end up jacking it up for the others, and in more situations then I can count, I have seen game shops go the way of the do-do on the rise and fall of different games.

Stores that tried to flagship in one particular game, ala GW pigeon hole themselves into a corner. The stores that have a variety, but don't over emphesise give themselves the lattitude to try that something new, and not get to caught up in the $$$ nicks of the companies themselves.

Hence- PLAYERS then are influanced by thier local scene as to what they will and won't try.

The most costly example I can give is when GW changed from its 2d edition, to its 3d.

At this time, Necromunda, Gorkamorka, and Inquisitor were all vieing for peoples cash. I watched the whole GW scene pretty much come to a freakish halt, as people were left to try to figure out WTF was doing.
Alot of us then stopped quipping around with 40K for a bit, and then moved on to fantasy, LOT5R, Battletech, etc. until the companies figured out themselves who was going to get it up and get on the road to recovery.
Then we sat back and watched as FASA, Avalon Hill, GDW, etc. all take the piss on the markets, and die.

Westend was out there, Steve jackson, etc. who along with TSR were all left feeling the effects of the computer revolution.

and now we come to today.

There are still up and coming gamers and companies out there, and in that sphere, it doesn't take much for the companies to figure out if they want to gedt it on and start up in the big leagues.... only to be threatened, coorced, or bullied into second class citizenship by larger companies, such as HASBRO, GW, etc.

Games are going to continue to come and go, and more importiantly, they will be there to try.

If anything, there is a variety. You don't have to trap yourself in one game.

Opponents. That's all.

I live in a small-ish city (<2m people), so opponents aren't easy to come by.
I have a painted VOID Junker army which I never got to use (for it's intended purpose, I use them to proxy Imperial Guard sometimes). Apparently the same minis are used for Urban War but I can't find anyone who plays that either.
I sold my Epic Eldar army off without ever getting a game.
My friend bought into a game called Wargods of Aegyptus, it was a neat game, but I didn't buy in because we couldn't convince anyone else to play (I proxied with Dwarves)
I have hundreds of Mage Knight minis (Was originally a great game for highly technical play, unfortunately the 2.0 rules change killed it). At least they're great for D&D.
I could count the number of Lord of the Rings games I've had on two hands. I like the game and was going to do a WotR force, but realised I'd never get a game.
Another friend and I were looking for an alternative to Battletech to allow bigger games, we tried CAV, but geez Reaper were intent on making the game impossible to get into. As gung ho as we were (we managed 3 games) we gave up.
Over the years I've also had minis for Stargrunt and Trinity Battleground gather dust, although never made an attempt to play them.

So what games do I get to play sometimes?

40k is the forerunner of course, lots of people play.
Warhammer Fantasy, I have an army too, get the occasional game in.
Warmachine, I started this game while 40k was going through a dry spell locally. I started purely because I wanted to be able to get a game! We've got a strong Warmachine scene and all my friends were playing. Didn't really like the game much.
Necromunda, I have many gangs and have a game here and there.
Battletech, used to play it heaps, I still get a game in here or there.
D&D 4E, not a wargame, but most of the mini painting I do these days is for our D&D game.

We have virtually no player base for any tabletop games other than 40K, Fantasy, and War of the Ring. Anyone who doesn't play those plays an RPG.

I have so many models at my house, if I buy any more I just might be killed.

Everyone in my area plays 40k, if i jump into another system I lose a base of 15 or so to 2.

I hate that i have already learned the rules for 40k, another intense ruleset might fry my brain.

I play with models too much with one gameset, two would be outrageous

Games Workshop is accesable, albeit expensive

Thats my 2 cents