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warpcrafter wrote:

LunaHound wrote:QFT means you just quoted me because you agreed with what i said xD

warpcrafter wrote:Warmachine/Hordes: Cards, metal miniatures
Confrontation: Cards, crappy quality plastic miniatures
AT-43: More fething cards, nobody at the only gaming store within range plays it.
Why, oh why does every miniature game nowadays have to come with cards?

Well no one said you have to use the cards lol. Its made for saving you time to flip page by page for the unit's stats.
You can just lay it at the side and view it anytime you want instantly.

Not mention they can constantly feel free to add and expand NEW units without having to wait for next edition codex.

Its very smart idea actually.

But you're supposed to mark on the cards (For Warmachine/Hordes) for your record-keeping of damage on Warcasters and Warjacks. I mention this to people and their answer (With a smirk!!!) is "Just put it in a card-sleeve and use a grease-pencil!" That's not the point. I have no problem with using an army list book. Perhaps when they put out actual army list books for Warmachine there will be more impetus to try an alternate method. (Paper and pencil?)

Oh come off it. It's a different game so it needs a different tracking system. That's
all there is to it. I'm not saying that things are better one way or the other, it's just
better for this game.

Whats stops me from trying another system is diluting my efforts isn't worth it.

How many gamers do you know with 8 projects and none finished...

? (All of them right?)

Also no one comes close to GWs massive minis inventory. There is hands down no contest for variety.

They are the kings, it's the best thing on the market (speaking as a modeler/player).

With regard to just biting the bullett and going for it.

I had an extremely bad experience when I tried out Warmachine. Picked up Prime, some Khador 'Jacks, and headed out to a FLGS to grab a couple of training games.

This worked to a point. That point being the opponents poor grasp of the English language. When I asked 'hey, can you guys run me through my first few games until I get a handle on it' to which they replied 'yeah, sure'. Seemingly what they were trying to say was 'hahaha! Fresh meat! This ought to enlarge my penis by another inch at least. I would be honoured to give you a sound thrashing, and not bother to shake your hand after the game or indeed offer any advice which could prevent the outcome of the game being anything short of a crushing defeat for you'.

Yeah. Found that to be a real problem.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:With regard to just biting the bullett and going for it.

I had an extremely bad experience when I tried out Warmachine. Picked up Prime, some Khador 'Jacks, and headed out to a FLGS to grab a couple of training games.

This worked to a point. That point being the opponents poor grasp of the English language. When I asked 'hey, can you guys run me through my first few games until I get a handle on it' to which they replied 'yeah, sure'. Seemingly what they were trying to say was 'hahaha! Fresh meat! This ought to enlarge my penis by another inch at least. I would be honoured to give you a sound thrashing, and not bother to shake your hand after the game or indeed offer any advice which could prevent the outcome of the game being anything short of a crushing defeat for you'.

Yeah. Found that to be a real problem.

I've never seen that happen with GW products, especially in a FLGS.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

artyboy wrote:I used to try new systems all the time. I still have boxes of old books and miniatures in my closet to prove it. What I like about Warhammer and 40k is that I can stop playing for a while and I know that the game won't be dead when I decide to start playing again. Also, the miniatures will still be worth something if I decide that I need to sell them.

Hey, you should be able to sell those old, dead games for their shipping cost!

But yeah, so far, there are a sum total of 3 companies games that seem to be doing OK:

GW (40k & WotR)
PP (WM/H)
BF (FoW)

I wouldn't even bother spending on other games unless I had the specific intent and expectation of providing all rules and minis for them, like a board game.

Battletech. How many other games do you know where the production company shut its doors (not because of money concerns, but because the staff got bored with success) and it got picked back up by another company (FanPro/Catalyst) and became even more successful? How many other companies aside from GW have produced complete "spin-off" games (AreoTech, MechWarrior: Dark Age)? How many other companies have had a Saturday morning cartoon made from their game (answer: TSR and BT - that's it)? How many other gaming companies have had video games made from their game (answer: TSR and GW - that's it)? BattleTech's been the "go-to" Giant Smashy Robot game since 1985, and has more words in print than any game company aside from TSR and GW itself. Yes, even more than GURPS (the 100-novel fiction line helps too).

Swordguy wrote:Battletech. How many other games do you know where the production company shut its doors (not because of money concerns, but because the staff got bored with success) and it got picked back up by another company (FanPro/Catalyst) and became even more successful?

How many other companies have had a Saturday morning cartoon made from their game (answer: TSR and BT - that's it)?

How many other gaming companies have had video games made from their game (answer: TSR and GW - that's it)?

TSR / WotC / Hasbro DnD?

Pokemon, Yugioh, & Chaotic come to mind...

Pokemon & Yugioh also come to mind here, too. And don't forget MTGO... Or Macross, where most of the "original" Battletech designs came from..

Swordguy wrote:
Battletech. How many other games do you know where the production company shut its doors (not because of money concerns, but because the staff got bored with success) and it got picked back up by another company (FanPro/Catalyst) and became even more successful? How many other companies aside from GW have produced complete "spin-off" games (AreoTech, MechWarrior: Dark Age)? How many other companies have had a Saturday morning cartoon made from their game (answer: TSR and BT - that's it)? How many other gaming companies have had video games made from their game (answer: TSR and GW - that's it)? BattleTech's been the "go-to" Giant Smashy Robot game since 1985, and has more words in print than any game company aside from TSR and GW itself. Yes, even more than GURPS (the 100-novel fiction line helps too).

Heavy Gear had a animated series. It wasn't particularly good, and has been noted as in-canon kiddy fodder/propaganda at best, with no real ties to the 'real' storyline of the setting.

But it was a series.

As well, two computer games.

The Deadlands RPG has a computer game 'on the way' and there's been several White Wolf-based computer games. (Again, the quality on these may vary).

I'm iffy about the 'more words in print' as you're counting RPGs. White Wolf, again, might threaten things if they count the 'World of Darkness' as a collective entity, as it had dozens of sourcebooks, several with multiple revisions, a bunch of novels, and some extra bits. I'd say it was less novels than 100, but it wasn't a minor work.

Osbad wrote:I play many different games. Some of them have been "dead" (i.e. have had no official support for years). Just last week I played Flintloque for the first time - a game that has been around for at least 15 or so years.

All that is needed to try out a new game is a copy of the rules (there are loads for free off t'interwebs if you're broke, and anyone but GW charges smaller amounts for rule books - £15 - £20 is more typical than the £30 - £40 GW tend to produce theirs for, and many go for pennies on eBay), 2 small armies (not necessarily painted) and 1 mate ready to give it a go with you. Something like Uncharted Seas you can get all that for oooh, say £50 or so plus postage - about the same as AoBR! Something like DBA could set you back only £30 - £40 for 2 useable armies and the rules. Hardly a major financial risk - about the cost of a Land Raider or two boxes of Goldswords!

As long as you have somewhere to play and one sympathetic mate, you're sorted. There really is no rational excuse for not branching out, unless you are truly content with where you are within the GW fold.

I don't understand this "fear" of a system stopping being supported. It just looks pretty mad to me. Who the frag needs "support" if they are a compus mentis adult with a ha'ppeneth of imagination? Sure it's nice, but its not necessary! And these day's with t'internet there is so much quality fan made stuff its an embarassment of riches (just found a great site dealing with Man O' War this afternoon!)

Sure, it can be handy to walk into a store ina strange town, plonk down your 1500 point army and have at it with a complete stranger. I can see the appeal in that. But why does that real benefit of GW mean you will be afraid to try any other game as well? It's not as if when you take up another game the GW police wll suddenly pounce on you for the indiscretion is it?!

The 'system support' concept is that you can walk into a GW shop anywhere and buy absolutely everything you need to choose an army, build it, paint it, and paly with it.

It's a bit like going to the supermarket and buying one of those complete Indian meals for two in a box.

I think that's a pretty good concept, and as long as GW make users assemble and paint the models, it can act as a gateway to other wargames.

Ancients is another world. As long as you base your figures on WRG standard bases, they will be compatible with almost any Ancients rules on the market (except WHAB.) The fluff is all there -- it's called 'history' and you can get it practically for free. The only problem you'll face is learning a different set of rules if something goes out of dat.

avantgarde wrote:With the superior playability, quality of models and clarity of rules of GW's products I feel no need to even look at other systems.

This is sarcasm, amirite?

Nothing stops me playing another system.
I also play Warmachine and urban war. Smaller 'army size'. Different play style.

Nothing. I play Hordes, Warmachine, Flames of War and Uncharted Seas and Starship Troopers (with 40k figs).

What stops me playing GW systems? May be a better question for me.

I used to play Confrontation, before the dark times...

for me, the answer is simple: GW has stood the test of time.

I really liked VOR, chronopia, and warzone. I had several armies for each system, and they each had a few unique and good ideas.

even within GW I really liked epic, space hulk, hero quest, talisman, mordheim, battle fleet gothic, necromunda, bloodbowl, inquisitor, and even trolls in the pantry. once again, I had several forces for each of these. (the non-board games, of course.)

none of these games are played on a consistent basis anymore. the first three games went out of business. all of the GW specialist games are available, but interest and start-up cost (not to mention huge miniature costs) keep all but the most grizzled vets away from the specialist ranges.

I tried confrontation and had a few armies for that. it lost its popularity, and for a while seemed to change the core rules every six months. there was also way too much errata for me to keep track of, every time I fought an opponent, his army worked differently.

I tried warmachine and hordes. I really liked warmachine at first, but the competition level of the game caused my interest to wane. I played a bit of hordes, but just as I was getting into it (and actually having fun with warmachine/horde crossovers) its popularity at my local shop declined. I've not seen either game played at my new gamestore, although the full line of PP is carried there.

with 40k and fantasy, when I move to a new place, I know I can get games. Even with some glaring issues, both 40k and fantasy can be easily adapted to most styles of play, and I have never lived in a town large or small that didn't have a GW community of some sort. The same cannot be said for any other tabletop miniature game.

I Don't decry the money I spent on games that are either dead or not popular, I really enjoyed them when they were in their prime. I just simply cant bring myself to invest in any new companies, till they prove themselves for a decade or so.

One last note, if it's a different rule set that I can use my existing figures for, I'm all for that. I did play a bunch of games using VOR rules and converting over 40k armies (it was an easy way to get people to play against my growlers,) and I played around with demonblades' shockforce rules for a bit. I'm also a big fan of swiping any rules ideas and shoehorning them into 40k and fantasy as needed by the scenario I'm playing. (just used the target games alternate unit activation for a game of 40k, for example.)

I just got tired of buying and painting a ton of models that are passe a year later.

For me, it is interest.

What games do I play?

Warhammer 40,000
Necromunda
Warhammer Quest
Blood Bowl
BattleTech

Now all but one of those is a GW game. I play 40K because I'm interested in the storyline and the backgrounds of the armies, the characters that are there (and that you can invent) and the whole mythos of the universe. Necromunda falls into this category as well. Now I'm not all that interested in Warhammer, but find Warhammer Quest to be a great game as long as you don't take it seriously and can have a good laugh with friends. Blood Bowl falls into this category as well.

The only remaining one then is BattleTech, a game that is superior to everything GW has ever done in virtually every way besides model quality (and that's not Catalyst's fault, and not even really Iron Wind Metal's fault - not everyone can be a megalithic quality model making company like Citadel). I play BTech because I love the universe and backstory, and because it fills that need for a highly detailed and well written game (something 40K cannot do).

I don't play any others because... well... nothing has interested me. I know Flames of War is a good game, but I have no interest in playing a WWII skirmish game. Star Ship Troopers looked like fun, but, again, I didn't like the focus. The only 'other' game that I've liked the look of is AT-43, and mostly because the Therians would make good Necrons.

I don't have any fear of not finding players or spending too much money - I've spent too much money as it is! - it's about what keeps me interested and what keeps me playing. Only 40K and BTech have done that.

avantgarde wrote:With the superior playability... and... clarity of [GW's] rules...

Just comin' out of the woodwork this week, aren't you? First artyboy and now you.

Clarity? Superior playability? GW? Same sentence? Amazing.

I play 40k only because it has so many army choices and was to build armies. A very nice feature that keeps it going.

I tried Hordes/Warmachine but it attracts the gamers with size issues. The whole Page 5 attitude, while a joke, is taken to seriously. Great game but most of the gamers I played against were rude. Not shaking an opponents hand is lame and disrespectful.

While I'd love to get into FoW, WAB, or FoG, there isn't a large player base for it. A recession is going on and I'm saving for Gen Con (where I'd find other wargames) so a new system isn't high on the list right now.

However, I am a sucker for cool card games.

How many other Wargames have stores scattered about so that you can have a game almost anywhere?

It isn't that I go to the FLGS every week, but it is a 'comfort zone' type of thing.

As for Card Games...

I have about 4,000 Jihad cards. Was a great game , and my friends and I enjoyed it for a few months.

Now they help keep my workbench level.

But I still have my first Bloodletter of Khorne Beastie I painted in '87 on Display. It's not painted well, it's more the point of the thing.

GW is STABLE. Despite rule fluctuations, horrible expansions, entire DELETION of models/armies from the gaming 'universe' it is set in etc etc etc. The woes are there we know.

However, the previous statements basically sum up my opinion with 40K is safe. For now. lol

H.B.M.C. wrote:

avantgarde wrote:With the superior playability... and... clarity of [GW's] rules...

Just comin' out of the woodwork this week, aren't you? First artyboy and now you.

Clarity? Superior playability? GW? Same sentence? Amazing.

I dare you to name a better game than 40k. The rules are the best written and streamlined I've ever played with, I don't need to look at other company's product to know GW is the best. I've never had a rules dispute or had any confusion over interpretation. The models have amazing detail and wide assortment of bits that no other company provides, and they're getting cheaper with models like Greatswords and Steam Tanks being converted to plastic.

Why should I start up wargaming when I'm already playing GW?

I play GW games because I have the assurance that they'll be other people who know how to play (and wish to, of course), in addition to liking the background and the wide range of plastic models.

avantgarde wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

avantgarde wrote:With the superior playability... and... clarity of [GW's] rules...

Just comin' out of the woodwork this week, aren't you? First artyboy and now you.

Clarity? Superior playability? GW? Same sentence? Amazing.

I dare you to name a better game than 40k. The rules are the best written and streamlined I've ever played with, I don't need to look at other company's product to know GW is the best. I've never had a rules dispute or had any confusion over interpretation. The models have amazing detail and wide assortment of bits that no other company provides, and they're getting cheaper with models like Greatswords and Steam Tanks being converted to plastic.

Why should I start up wargaming when I'm already playing GW?

Someone really needs to script sarcasm font bookends into the BB code.

The thing that is stopping me from trying another system is the myriad of new things I still have yet to do in my current system. I am constantly dreaming of starting up new armies, fleshing out current armies, catching up on painting, completely re-painting, etc...

with 10's of thousands of dollars invested in 6 systems over 16 years of tabletop wargaming, not even including RPG's going back to the mid 80's, I am as invested in the gaming part of my life as I want/need/can be.

Wolfstan wrote:I currently play:

Rules of Engagement
Urban War
Metropolis
Pirates
Confrontation 3
AT43

I will also be play, once I've finished the forces:

PBI
AK47
Flames of War
Infinity
Hell Dorado

Linky, linky, or you're stinky.
Seriously. How about some links for these lesser known systems?

Magc8Ball wrote:I think that one of the major problems people run into is simply the mentality that a "system" means buying a bunch of miniatures, too. Naturally, this is something that the larger game companies themselves like to promote because it can lead to people getting "locked in". There's a reason that GW calls it "The Games Workshop Hobby" and not "The Wargaming Hobby": they don't want you to even know other companies exist.

Truth! This is GOSPEL.

avantgarde wrote:With the superior playability, quality of models and clarity of rules of GW's products I feel no need to even look at other systems.

Well, seems to me that the last few words of your sentence pretty much nullifies the beginning (and crux, really) of your statement. If you never look at other systems, how could you possibly know GW's rules to have "superior playability". Oxymoron.




Other systems that I have played and would LOVE to play more are:

Battleground WWII - 20mm - (Easy Eights Productions - now defunct)
Fairy Meat - 1:1 - (Kenzer & Co.)
Gwar! Rumble in Antarctica - 28mm (DemonBlade Games - now defunct)
[urlhttp://www.rafm.com/charlie/charlie.html]Charlie Company - 20mm Vietnam - (RAFM)[/url]
Squadrons/Blue Skies - 1:300 WWII Aerial combat (SIMTAC Miniatures LLC - now defunct)


My problem is, 40k is so huge at my FLGS, nobody wants to play anything else. Well, nothing out of the ordinary, anyway. People play Warmachine and WHFB...






***EDIT***

I had a long reply to Avantgarde typed out, reeking in scything sarcasm, then I read this:

avantgarde wrote:...and they're getting cheaper with models like Greatswords and Steam Tanks being converted to plastic.

Now I realize he's being facetious. Silly me for not realizing sooner.




Ghidorah

Ghidorah wrote:

avantgarde wrote:With the superior playability, quality of models and clarity of rules of GW's products I feel no need to even look at other systems.

Well, seems to me that the last few words of your sentence pretty much nullifies the beginning (and crux, really) of your statement. If you never look at other systems, how could you possibly know GW's rules to have "superior playability". Oxymoron.
Ghidorah

Less oxymoron (which this really doesn't qual as I believe. Isn't oxymoron limited to a pair of words or a phrase, not sentences?) and more trolling, I think.

The hardest thing for me in the switch from GW to PP games were (in order):

1. Everyone I knew was playing GW and weren't interested in switching.
2. I had already invested in a large amount of GW minis and time painting them.
3. I didn't want to paint or assemble a lot of models because I am an incredibly slow painter.

Then I had my armies stolen. So number 2 was basically wiped out. Additionally, PP just came out, and GW had one of their "price adjustments." So now here was a game I could get into for only $35 at the time (battleboxes). Plus, a bunch of people at the local game store tried it out too. So now 1 was gone too.

Once I started playing, I realized WM was a much better built game than GW. Plus, I wouldn't need to buy (and paint) 150-200 more models, only about 20. So 3 didn't seem like such a big deal anymore.

I was never able to convince my old GW buddies to switch over to PP games though, but since WM/H took off at the FLGS where I lived, it didn't matter, and I made new gaming buddies to play WM/H with.

Since that time, I've never gone back to GW.

P.S. Funny enough, after all these years, a couple of my old GW buddies are thinking about maybe trying some PP games.

By "Pirates", I'm assumeing he's referring to the now-defunct Wizkids Pirates CSG. I have something of a soft spot for that game, too.

It's two fold.
1st gw 40k has dedicated stores, I've been involved in it since 1989, there are novels, pc games, comics, etc....conversions are easy and so on.......also it is one hobby, and that is where my "fun" money goes.....

2nd - other game systems have come and gone, it would be yet another (2nd) hobby to pour money & time into.......

I just focus on the one....

Some links as requested

Rules of Engagement: http://www.greatescapegames.co.uk/
Urban War / Metropolis: http://urbanmammoth.co.uk/um/09/htm/uw_home.htm
AT43: http://www.at-43.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=57&Itemid=253 They have some battleforce box sets coming out that look good value.

I will also be playing, once I've finished the forces:

PBI & AK47: http://www.peterpig.co.uk/
Flames of War: http://www.flamesofwar.com/
Infinity: http://www.infinitythegame.com/infinity_ENG/ Played my first game of Infinity last night, really enjoyed it. Used 10 models against 20 (D-Day themed demo game test), you get caught out in the open, or once the range mods kick in, it hurts
Hell Dorado: http://helldorado.fr/

Pirate's game is the Warhammer Ancients one, which is a good little game. On the plus side it is from the GW stable so GW fans can play it without feeling too guilty (you would need to buy non-GW models)... or on the other hand adpat some Warhammer models and use them


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Looking back through the replies, I find myself wondering if US gamers are less likely to stray from GW than us Brits. Am I correct in this assumption?

At my club all the games listed, plus many more are played (for a full list visit: http://www.wessexwyverns.org.uk/about.html). I also know that most of the other clubs in Dorset play other systems on a regular basis. Does this indicate that the size of the UK allows for more gaming diversity or that we are fundamentally different when it comes to our gaming tastes?

Here's a general resource page for DBA Ancients

http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/index.html

Have to say nothing's ever stopped me from trying other systems ,

Warmachine/hordes; got a few starter bits and stated looking for gamers..........found 2 after nearly a month of looking. Eventually had a game but with so few players ended up selling them off.
Flames of war; This one had me quite excited till I found the only players to be 40+ high and mighty types though quite a few played nearby, the cold shoulder/unwelcome attitude put me off.
battletech; still have some laying around but again few players and only having a modest intrest in it.

At the end of the day for all its faults GW have plenty of stores, lots of customers/gamers so unless they go belly up and I dont go onto pure videogaming/CCGs i'm quite ontent staying within GW grasp.

Kilkrazy wrote:The 'system support' concept is that you can walk into a GW shop anywhere and buy absolutely everything you need to choose an army, build it, paint it, and paly with it.
It's a bit like going to the supermarket and buying one of those complete Indian meals for two in a box.
I think that's a pretty good concept, and as long as GW make users assemble and paint the models, it can act as a gateway to other wargames.

I'll agree this seems to be part of the attraction, an it has weight. But is it really *that* much effort to fire up the internet and buy all the models and paints you need, assemble and paint them on your kitchen table and then play with them with a mate or at a local club(UK)/FLGS(US)? Really? I guess its the "MacDonalds" culture we live in - a sort of "convenience food" alternative to real gaming! LOL!

Killkrazy wrote:Ancients is another world. As long as you base your figures on WRG standard bases, they will be compatible with almost any Ancients rules on the market (except WHAB.) The fluff is all there -- it's called 'history' and you can get it practically for free. The only problem you'll face is learning a different set of rules if something goes out of dat.

And even then if you and your mate decide you are happy enough with the old rules, even that's not a biggy. For instance my mate & I can't be bothered to learn WMmkII. We're OK with MkI and don't play competitively enough to bother trying to "keep up with the Joneses". I realise MkI may be "broken", but it isn't broken the way we play it at home as friends, so we aren't planning to spend money that otherwise would go on new models, on a new set of rules "just to stay current". People still play RT and 2nd Edition 40k with no support from GW so, what's the difference?

If you have a good group of friends to play with you don't need any more "support" from anyone. Sure active "support" from a current ruleset and new model releases can create a buzz of excitement that is infectious. And people go for that. Me too from time to time. But if a game is good and you have a bunch of friends who enjoy it there's no reason to abandon it whatever happens to the manufacturer.

I really do think the "convenience factor" is what keeps people with GW. Just as people will pay £5 for a mediocre hamburger and chips from MacDonalds, rather than go home and cook a nicer, and much healthier one at home for half the price, so people will stick with the GW hobby, despite "better" rules and "better"/cheaper models being available elsewhere. And of course those that really prefer the "GW hobby" to the wider one - that is unarguable. If one really does think, after looking about that GW has the best fluff, rules and models, then there can be no argument. Unless one hasn't looked of course ....

Time.

I'd love to play FOW but am strapped for time so am flat out with WHFB and 40k, let alone other games.

Wolfstan wrote:Looking back through the replies, I find myself wondering if US gamers are less likely to stray from GW than us Brits. Am I correct in this assumption?
At my club all the games listed, plus many more are played (for a full list visit: http://www.wessexwyverns.org.uk/about.html). I also know that most of the other clubs in Dorset play other systems on a regular basis. Does this indicate that the size of the UK allows for more gaming diversity or that we are fundamentally different when it comes to our gaming tastes?

I wonder this too. Although the guys on the D6G seem to have no trouble playing other games (they've done Uncharted Seas, ACW and Epic, to name 3 off the top of my head).

If it *is* the case that the US gaming scene is more focussed on GW and PP, then I would see this as possibly a function of the commercial nature of the preferred gaming locations in the US - i.e. local stores. In the UK there seem to be a lot more independent, non-commercial gaming clubs, which obviously have no particular vested interest in steering games towards one system or another. If your only gaming venue is a store though (GW, or independent) then that store owner has a vested interest in only supporting a smaller product range - so it is hard for small/new/old games systems to break in, as no one really feels comfortable trying a system at the store when that store owner is really only supplying gaming tables for products he sells.

Of course I've never played a game at a US FLGS, so I am only going on impressions, and there may well be some friendly stores who would be quite happy for someone to turn up with a new/old/small game and let them play, but I suspect there are many that would not be so happy, particularly if it gained traction and pulled people away from games he could stock and service more easily.