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**dogma**

VermGho5t wrote:Timothy Dalton's bond was actually by far my favorite out of all.

Were you looking for an excuse to call yourself unique?

**VictorVonTzeentch**

I've not yet been able to see this special, being american and having no good internet skills.

**Valkyrie**

BrotherStynier wrote:I've not yet been able to see this special, being american and having no good internet skills.

You probably wouldn't want to see the special.

**BluntmanDC**

Lord-Loss wrote:So, how can the 'Daleks be locked in the timewar', when they are exinct?

Are the Daleks, the Doctors fault?!?!

Who Is Wilf?

Most of the darleks are supposedly locked in the timewar, the ones that have appeared in the tv series were, the random darlek that fell to Earth (killed itself, thinking it was the last one, the ones that attacked the space station were made from human genetic materialwith only one true darlek (the emperor) among them, then at the attack on canary wharf they were trapped in a dimensional prision made by timelords, which were freed by darleks that survived in a trans-dimensional ship. then in the episode of the stolen planets, the darleks were saved from the timelock by darlek sek falling through time and saving davros, who was used to make more darleks, so in the series there hasn't been that many true darleks.

the doctor, in the 4th doctor tom baker era, was ordered to destroy the darlek project and stop davros at the beginning, the doctor couldn't bring himself to destroy a race that although were completely evil, had actually done so much good, bringing a multitude of races together against a common threat. he didn't kill them, only trapping them slowing their progress.

Wilf is donna noble's grandad, the actor who plays him was also an assistant of the doctor in the film darlek invasion of Earth 2150, this isn't part of the offical bbc canon (only the tv episodes and the 7th doctor tv film are canon, this excludes all of the books and radio plays made about the doctor) but is still a good watch.

**reds8n**

I wonder if Wilf might be more than that.

.. you remember how both the Dr and the Master "hid" inside normal human bodies.. i wonder if he might be, in some way, soemthing like this for the TimeLords which is why he is at the centre of so much.

I wonder if Donna might actually shoot Tennant.. remember how infamous she was/is as a companion previously...

I wonder if the old lady who spoke to Wilf through the TV might be the Dr.s' Mother... and if she is the other kneeling figure covering her face.

**Lord-Loss**

I remeber who Wilf is now.

But I think the Time Lords might be there, to end time themselves. Why else would they come back.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Whilst I loved the Chrimbo Special, I do have to admit it's pace was kind of iffy. However, do remember peeps it's the first of two halves, and seemingly had a lot of stuff to establish for it's 2nd act.

**VictorVonTzeentch**

Valkyrie wrote:
BrotherStynier wrote:I've not yet been able to see this special, being american and having no good internet skills.

You probably wouldn't want to see the special.

I only wanna watch them because DT isn't gonna be the Doctor soon and I like the Master.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Oh, and the two people kneeling, covering the their faces?

I reckon it's Matt Smith as the Doctor, and whoever that woman popping up in front of Wilf is (that I originally thought was the former Prime Minister bint, but in fact isn't. That and she got knacked off a Dalek, I think. Wasn't actually shown on screen IIRC)

**BluntmanDC**

The women in white could be the white guardian, he/she/it featured in the 5th doctor storyline as an opposite to the black guardian, super intelligent begins who like to play with beings in this universe

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Good point!

Though IIRC, you don't actually meet the White Guardian until the Black Guardian Trilogy (with Turlough), as the one Tom Baker encounters is just the Black Guardian masquerading as his opposite.

**Goliath**

Remember Kids,
Supporting the "Wilf is a timelord" theory is the fact that:

"Wilfred Mott" is an anagram of "Timelord WTF"

YAY WILF!!

**BluntmanDC**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Good point!

Though IIRC, you don't actually meet the White Guardian until the Black Guardian Trilogy (with Turlough), as the one Tom Baker encounters is just the Black Guardian masquerading as his opposite.

yer thats what i said, the 5th doctor was played by peter davison and the black guardian ark is an amazing watch, mawdryn undean is my favorite. she could also be one of many beings that exist outside the universe and can only through 'avatars' like wilf or turlough

**Lord-Loss**

In the clip that Reds8n posted, that women said 'millions are dieing over and over, and getting brought back to life' well she said something like that. Does that mean the Time Lords are keeping the war going?

Did the Doctor know this was happening?

And the women said the Doctor 'had the moment' which could destroy the Time Lords.

**legoburner**

BrotherStynier wrote:
Valkyrie wrote:
BrotherStynier wrote:I've not yet been able to see this special, being american and having no good internet skills.

You probably wouldn't want to see the special.

I only wanna watch them because DT isn't gonna be the Doctor soon and I like the Master.

It was on BBC america on the 26th, and will probably be on again next saturday (along with the conclusion).

**VictorVonTzeentch**

It was? Dern it, well I will have to check and see if its on this weekend. Thanks for the heads up Lego.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Just saw a trailer on the Beeb (and am now watching a remake of Day Of The Triffids).

I saw Wilf firing a giant frikking laser! WOO!

And the Doctor said 'The Time Lords are returning'. Which suggests that Dalton's commentary is indeed on events that have already happened.

**Lord-Loss**

The Doctor looks scared when he says 'The Time Lords are returnings', like he fears them. Is it possible, that the Time Lords have become corrupt?

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Who knows what shifts in attitude happened during the Time War? Don't recall anything saying who actually started it?

**Lord-Loss**

There leader looks like a huge arsehole now. I think The Time Lords, have been keeping The Time War going on. Also there leader, had that Glove Of Whats His Name.

**Goliath**

Lord-Loss wrote:There leader looks like a huge arsehole now. I think The Time Lords, have been keeping The Time War going on. Also there leader, had that Glove Of Whats His Name.

are you talking about the hand of Omega?

if so, that was actually a really big device that made stars go supernova.

**reds8n**

I think he means the metal gauntlet that Dalton's character is wearing...

.. which.. might have been in Torchwood at some point perhaps ?

**Lord-Loss**

No the torchwood hand, makes people come back from the dead.

I think the glove is the founders of the Time Lords. I cant remeber his name.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
It seems the Time Lords havn't really returned, but there is a huge group of survivors from the Time War, there lead by the 'narrator'. I've been reading about the Time War, on Doctor Who Wiki. Link to the page on the 'Narrator' below:

http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/The_Narrator

**reds8n**

Overall I was happy enough. A few... odd..... parts of the story, which didn't quite click for me.... but in fairness any explanation of them further would have been more technobabble so it saved time really.

Loved the whole bit where Tennant was listing all the new weapons and armies the Time Lords fielded " Nightmare Child, The Scar of Degredations, The Horde of Travesties "... I could listen to that gak all day long and be happy.

Superb acting from the main cast : Tennant's wink at the Master was sublime, and he if doesn't get nominated for something for his rant against the "dying of the light" ... so to speak, when Wilf was trapped, then there is no justice. Beatifully shot as well : the way the camera tracked round when tennant is surpised to find himself alive. and then we got the 4 knocks was inspired and carried out to perfection.

Nice little wrap up and tidy up with the supporting cast of characters, still think he should have actually spoke to Sarah Jane but I'll let them off.. not least for RTD's little rant about traffic in the confidential show afterwards.

Too early to judge the new guy IMO.. he's got some intersting times ahead of him at least, and he has some big shoes to fill

http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/newyear/

**MeanGreenStompa**

I, on the other hand, am rather more scathing in my consideration.

This bit was great:
"You weren't there in the final days of the War. You never saw what was born. But if the time lock's broken, then everything's coming through. Not just the Daleks but the Skaro Degradations, the Horde of Travesties, the Nightmare Child, The Could-Have-Been King and his army of Meanwhiles and Never Weres. The War turned into Hell and that's what you opened, right above the Earth. Hell is descending!"

But RTD had to do all those things I've come to be really irritated about, the Messiah-like bit, the Gay-agenda bit etc etc, this is something dakkite 'da boss' linked, I think it sums up my peevishness about everything in the 2 part special.

I just think it was highly twee, the death bit just went on and on like the ending of Return of the King. Cribbens actually annoyed me with the overblown saluting and was I tripping or did he blow David Tenancy Agreement a kiss?!? The cactus aliens were utter toss.

If the timelords had become 'baddies' why wasn't this explained in more detail, again with RTD, he just takes a piece of canon and uses a mallet to make it convenient for an episode, without considering how that affects the greater lore for Dr Who.

I shall miss Tenancy, I REALLY won't miss RTD gakky scripts.

**Goliath**

The reason that the TimeLords had become baddies was explained, because they were going to bring about the end of time and destroy all of creation, surely that isn't a good thing?

**MeanGreenStompa**

Yeah, I got that, and that they had become 'ebil' due to fighting the time war.

But it was kinda skimmed over in favour of more important things, like 'Am I bovvered' girl running around screaming and fainting.

meh.

**Lord-Loss**

I think the The End Of Time did everything on the poster that MGS posted.

I mean, it was just silly how the Time Lords returned, and didnt The Doctor, destroy Galfray?

Also, any ideas on the Lady In White?

Im 80% that the people with their face covered behind the Lord President, are the Doctor parents.

**BluntmanDC**

Lord-Loss wrote:I think the The End Of Time did everything on the poster that MGS posted.

I mean, it was just silly how the Time Lords returned, and didnt The Doctor, destroy Galfray?

Also, any ideas on the Lady In White?

Im 80% that the people with their face covered behind the Lord President, are the Doctor parents.

The Doctor didn't derstoy Galifray, he removed it from time, trapping it in a 'bubble'. I think you know a race has gone dark side when they go and reserect one of the craziest and power hungry timelord ever (rassilon). the lady in white/covered face could be romana if she came back from E-space to fight in the war, but if it was the doctor's mum that would be good.

**Lord-Loss**

I think the lady in white, was a different person from the women with her face covered.