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BrotherStynier wrote:I was able to see that it was kinda pointing out that there isn't much of a difference between either side. Sure the Nazis liked to focus on specific groups of people, the Allies would (not just in the film) kill Germans simply to kill them. The Allies never got in trouble because they won the war.

Nothing America or Britain did came anywhere near Germany's atrocities. Except possibly Dresden. (And, domestically, you could say the Japanese internment.)

The USSR was another matter, although given their treatment by the Germans it was something you could have seen coming.

I didn't mean we did atrocities close to their level, but we were hardly as good as people would like to believe. War is hell, people do questionable things, sometimes the get in trouble for it, like the Death Camp Officers and others get away with it.

And yet others find loop holes, see Otto Skorzeny and the Ardennes Offensive.

What about all the good things Hitler did?..

Aw gak here we GO!


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Jesus, I can hear all the flamers priming from here on the far side of the interdweebs wire.

Oh yes, just wait till I build my 'amusing' 9/11 terrorist Tallarn desert raiders, with text from the Qu'ran written down their tanks and an enormous banner featuring the twin towers (of a hive city) ablaze!

Imma gunna sculpt greenstuff beards on them an have captured civilian transports instead of valks and make little dioramas inside of the pilots getting their throats cut as the Tallarn-iban take control. Disembarking might be problematic though...

It's obviously only little toy soldiers though and I'm obviously satiring, everyone will understand and marvel at my razor sharp wit, won't they!...Won't they? Is there a Games Day New York I could show this off at?

... does this aid at all in reaching a conclusion about how bad an idea nazi orks are?

I'd say the idea is...borderline, maybe. Probably a good idea not to bother with it at all if you ask me, but so long as you don't create an army like "The Master Race", then you're fine in my book...

Although MGS does have a very good point I suppose. Like I said, probably better not to do it.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Oh yes, just wait till I build my 'amusing' 9/11 terrorist Tallarn desert raiders, with text from the Qu'ran written down their tanks and an enormous banner featuring the twin towers (of a hive city) ablaze!

Imma gunna sculpt greenstuff beards on them an have captured civilian transports instead of valks and make little dioramas inside of the pilots getting their throats cut as the Tallarn-iban take control. Disembarking might be problematic though...

It's obviously only little toy soldiers though and I'm obviously satiring, everyone will understand and marvel at my razor sharp wit, won't they!...Won't they? Is there a Games Day New York I could show this off at?

... does this aid at all in reaching a conclusion about how bad an idea nazi orks are?

The difference being that one is still very fresh in people's minds and the other isn't. You are also assuming that most people are gonna be putting Swastikas all over everything to make the fact that they are Nazis stick out like a sore thumb. There is really no problem with people using uniform schemes or other things that make you think of Germans, ie monocles stand out to some people, black uniforms, very orderly. You can accomplish getting away with the feel of what could be a Nazi or German army with out throwing around the Swastika or SS runes, if the uniforms or way the equipment looks bothers you that much maybe the rod up your ass needs to be slid out a bit more.

I assure you, no matter how much fun the army is meant to be, someone somewhere is going to get offended.

Now, when people get offended about Nazi references, they are on very solid ground. You will find your moral basis for doing the army is easy to question.

BrotherStynier wrote:
The difference being that one is still very fresh in people's minds and the other isn't. You are also assuming that most people are gonna be putting Swastikas all over everything to make the fact that they are Nazis stick out like a sore thumb. There is really no problem with people using uniform schemes or other things that make you think of Germans, ie monocles stand out to some people, black uniforms, very orderly. You can accomplish getting away with the feel of what could be a Nazi or German army with out throwing around the Swastika or SS runes, if the uniforms or way the equipment looks bothers you that much maybe the rod up your ass needs to be slid out a bit more.

A German WW2 army theme, colour of grey etc, isn't what the OP was raising though Stynier, I'm making a militaristic blood axe army myself with imperium/german/soviet feel about it. The OP was stating his intention to build an army using the Swastika and make a Hitler warboss. I think pushing things to that level is really chancing very real offence. Saying it was a long time ago doesn't really detract from the fact I can go and sit with my grandparents and have them talk about those times like it was yesterday.

Creating an army like that pushes the boundaries of good taste and for me speaks volumes about how fortunate, privileged and sheltered we must be today to trivialise the darkest times the world has seen in many centuries.

Then again we have WW2 armies in the game Flames of War and others, I was going to say those must use the swastika on German armies, but a quick google search left me seeing none, instead they used the Iron Cross design, I don't think that design has anything like the connotations of the Swastika, relating to the army rather than the Nazi party.

I don't know what the answer is, I don't think if my grandfather walked with me into a GW store and saw the swastika painted onto toy soldiers would think, I doubt it would matter overly that they had green skin, only that that imagery would remind him of six brothers slain to an enemy that threatened the free world. I think he would find it offensive, that is enough for me to say it is a bad idea.

But like you said KK someone somewhere will get offended regardless. If that's the case what's it matter just go a head and do it. People can question the morals behind it all they want, they can assume all they want, but unless they know you personally they wouldn't know for sure if you actually did the army because you like the look of the German Army and you respect how the Army functioned and what the Army managed to do or whether or not you support the idea of wholesale slaughter of a whole race. Either way people won't like it but its not their army and they don't have to play against it if they dont want too.

Most people it seems would take anything resembling Germany, even from the First Reich on wards to be Nazi, because the Nazis borrowed that imagery. So even if you try not to make it Nazi people will still assume its Nazi. Point and case the thread which was linked to earlier in this one. There was lots of Prussian era to WWI era influence yet most people only saw a few Nazi references or imagery that the Neo-Nazis had adopted.

Easiest way to get away with a German themed Army in my opinion would be to paint them In Fallschirmjager Splinter '41, SS Dot 44 or SS Oak Pattern as not many people can connect the dots and figure out whats going on.


EDIT @MGS- you managed to sneak in before me, so give me a moment and I'll edit in some stuff once I've read your post.


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MeanGreenStompa wrote:
A German WW2 army theme, colour of grey etc, isn't what the OP was raising though Stynier, I'm making a militaristic blood axe army myself with imperium/german/soviet feel about it. The OP was stating his intention to build an army using the Swastika and make a Hitler warboss. I think pushing things to that level is really chancing very real offence. Saying it was a long time ago doesn't really detract from the fact I can go and sit with my grandparents and have them talk about those times like it was yesterday.

Okay point taken I honestly missed the part with Hitler the war boss and blatant iconography. I know there are people still alive from that time frame that you can still talk to about the war, my Grandparent and several Great Uncles are amongst that group. Would they get offended by a Nazi themed Army? Maybe one of them and he's not even one that fought in the War or lived through two invasions (Grandfather is dutch he was in Indo-China for the Japanese and Holland for the German Invasions, spent the rest of the war in Holland.) but he and the ones who fought wouldn't have as much of an issue their kids all expressed interest in it and my dad atleast when he was younger would play hex games insisting on being the Germans. I know everyone is different and in my family and with a bunch of people I know the idea of a German themed anything wouldn't be too outrageous for them.

Creating an army like that pushes the boundaries of good taste and for me speaks volumes about how fortunate, privileged and sheltered we must be today to trivialise the darkest times the world has seen in many centuries.

I would agree that an Army showing everyone in Black uniforms with Swastikas and SS symbols everywhere would in or very near bad taste. Yes people these days are sheltered from events like that because we haven't had a war like that since the Korean War which even then wasn't as big nor did it effect the global community as much so we do trivialize things like that. But I would think people of this age would be less likely to accept a "terrorist" themed army due to the events of the past few years.

Then again we have WW2 armies in the game Flames of War and others, I was going to say those must use the swastika on German armies, but a quick google search left me seeing none, instead they used the Iron Cross design, I don't think that design has anything like the connotations of the Swastika, relating to the army rather than the Nazi party.

The only things I believe the Swastika appears on in Flames of War or most historical games is the Tail of German aircraft where they did put the Swastika, Flags draped over engine compartments to show friendly aircraft they were not targets and the emblem of the Afrika Korps. The Swastika was primarily just the emblem of the party and the state with the military primarily keeping the Iron Cross much like they still do.

I don't know what the answer is, I don't think if my grandfather walked with me into a GW store and saw the swastika painted onto toy soldiers would think, I doubt it would matter overly that they had green skin, only that that imagery would remind him of six brothers slain to an enemy that threatened the free world. I think he would find it offensive, that is enough for me to say it is a bad idea.

While that would be how your Grandfather would react, it wouldn't be how mine would react despite also losing family defending the free world. I respect you family's sacrifice and how he and yourself would react. But its different from my families reaction and how I would react, its all a matter of how your families deal with things and how you were brought up, I was brought up by a man interested in the military of the Third Reich and what those units accomplished and that rubbed off on me. So if I saw a WWII themed army that was painted how the Army was historically I'd be interested in it and which unit served as the inspiration.

As with the responces to the OP, you can expect mixed reaction. I would imagine most people will say nothing or have a laugh at it, however there will also be those who will accuse you of being a Nazi yourself, or at least take offence in some form or another. The vast majority of these people will be the types who "choose" to be offended at just about anything because it gives them attention.

Personaly I don't have a problem with it. It is certainly no worse than collecting and painting a WW2 German army, which many do and ironicaly seems to draw less negative attention.

As for attrocities, the bombing of Dresden (which if I remember correctly was a response for the bombing of Coventry) does in no way compare with the Holocaust. My grandfather was a Lancaster pilot in WW2, I never had the honour of meeting him although my grandmother told me that before every raid he would pray, and after every raid he would cry. At that stage in the war nearly everyone on both sides was desperate for it to end and as such actions were ordered (such as the droping of the two atomic bombs on Japan) to try and draw the war to a close as swiftly as possible.

BrotherStynier wrote:But like you said KK someone somewhere will get offended regardless. If that's the case what's it matter just go a head and do it.

We get into shaky ground then, if the rational is 'well everything will upset someone so lets just roll with it, then I'm building a beastman army of slaanesh all greenstuffed to look like PedoBears all buggering the same 8 year old. I'm no PC treehugger but Nazism really is a delicate subject and deserves careful handling, even today.

BrotherStynier wrote:
While that would be how your Grandfather would react, it wouldn't be how mine would react despite also losing family defending the free world. I respect you family's sacrifice and how he and yourself would react. But its different from my families reaction and how I would react, its all a matter of how your families deal with things and how you were brought up, I was brought up by a man interested in the military of the Third Reich and what those units accomplished and that rubbed off on me. So if I saw a WWII themed army that was painted how the Army was historically I'd be interested in it and which unit served as the inspiration.

He would probably be interested in historically respectful units etc, say a historic battle or skirmish being played out on the table, he took me to a convention in Plymouth when I was a boy and there was a (not historically accurate) naval battle between Japanese and British Fleets that he watched for a while and nodded sagely as the young guys explained which ship was which (3 of his brothers flew in the Fleet Air Arm). Not fantasy monsters having amusing Nazi antics, I imagine you lose interest in amusing Nazi antics when one of your brothers was bayoneted to death by several of them.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

BrotherStynier wrote:But like you said KK someone somewhere will get offended regardless. If that's the case what's it matter just go a head and do it.

We get into shaky ground then, if the rational is 'well everything will upset someone so lets just roll with it, then I'm building a beastman army of slaanesh all greenstuffed to look like PedoBears all buggering the same 8 year old. I'm no PC treehugger but Nazism really is a delicate subject and deserves careful handling, even today.

I would think the same would be true about handling the Vietnam War which is a sensitive subject for several people I know, but the Catachan have the antics of that time, which some people could find offensive. I will admit though probably not nearly as offensive as the Nazis, and I agree with you it is kinda shaky ground, another one of my blurt something out and hope people don't think too much about it.

He would probably be interested in historically respectful units etc, say a historic battle or skirmish being played out on the table, he took me to a convention in Plymouth when I was a boy and there was a (not historically accurate) navel battle between Japanese and British Fleets that he watched for a while. Not fantasy monsters having amusing Nazi antics, I imagine you lose interest in amusing Nazi antics when one of your brothers was bayoneted to death by several of them.

Well that's just how some people are, they'd rather deal with something that portrays them the way they were, not in a comical or what's the word... mimicking manner. I would agree that several different types of people would lose interest in amusing antics if a situation like that where to have happened to someone close to them.

Catachans aren't Vietnam, they are Rambo from First Blood Part 2. Most soldiers in 'Nam didn't wear wifebeaters into combat like all Catachans do. They also often wore helmets. I watched Platoon, I know.

lol.. But if you watched Platoon you'd remember the guys that just ran around in their flak vests also...

BrotherStynier wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

BrotherStynier wrote:But like you said KK someone somewhere will get offended regardless. If that's the case what's it matter just go a head and do it.

We get into shaky ground then, if the rational is 'well everything will upset someone so lets just roll with it, then I'm building a beastman army of slaanesh all greenstuffed to look like PedoBears all buggering the same 8 year old. I'm no PC treehugger but Nazism really is a delicate subject and deserves careful handling, even today.

I would think the same would be true about handling the Vietnam War which is a sensitive subject for several people I know, but the Catachan have the antics of that time, which some people could find offensive. I will admit though probably not nearly as offensive as the Nazis, and I agree with you it is kinda shaky ground, another one of my blurt something out and hope people don't think too much about it.

And I just saw a modelling scenario of some catachan POWs all around a table playing russian roulette with some Tau viet cong stood around them screaming at them to pull the boltpistol trigger...

Again this would be offensive.

Yeah that definitily would be one of those offensive scenarios with toy soldiers. Personally I find that to be almost as bad as modeling SS Orks with Jew Grots.

People can make whatever counter-arguments they like involving Vietnam, historical armies, and other such topics.

The fact remains that if you 'for fun' paint up a fantasy or SF army as a Nazi army, you are going to run into trouble.

It has been debated before on Dakka, when an SM army (beautifully painted) had Nazi-like iconography. People clearly identified it was meant to be a Nazi army, and lots of them didn't like the idea.

Same will happen with the proposed Orks.

That's the fact.

squilverine wrote:It is certainly no worse than collecting and painting a WW2 German army, which many do and ironicaly seems to draw less negative attention.

I dunno about that.

A historicals WW2 German army won't have swastikas being used for gratuitous purposes. It'll conform to historical standards, and may not have a single swastika on a single model. If I'm doing a late war Ostfront Panzer force, it's all white tanks.

OTOH, a pseudo-historical WW2 German army selected specifically to see how much fascist Nazi iconography can be presented *would* be offensive because the intent is to offend.


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Haunted_Undead wrote:The issue should not be with the design as the swastika is infact a symbol of peace in Hindu.

As a pure symbol, that depends on which way it rotates.

But when presented in block black on white over a red field, it has no Hindu (or Amerind) connotations whatsoever.

Mod: I'm going to lock this thread as I believe it has run its course and will lead to trouble if continued.

Feel free to PM me or another Mod if you think it is worth continuing the thread.


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This thread is now open for posting again.

As OP I want to clear up a few things people seem to be getting wrong.

There will be no Sawstikas in my army. I actually asked if I should do one with an ork spin, but even asking that question shows I shouldn't really do it.
Second thing is the red arm bands are bearly recognisable as Nazi when put on orks, theres no white circle on them, just red bands, they look like any other piece of clothing.
Third; they're all in black red and white but its a common theme in 40k.

I don't think anyone would know these are Nazis unless I told them. If I put in anything even close to a swastica it's be rainbow coloured instead of red, with a white circle in the middle and a heart in the middle.

Plus the Hitler would be a Grot in a officers hat, a trench coat, the moustache if its even possible and holding up a little white flag.

The army won't be blatantly Nazi just the same kind of uniform. I hate the idea of everyone doing Nazi themed armies and this is a twist on it I've not seen anyone do...A piss take!

Tarondor wrote:
Plus the Hitler would be a Grot in a officers hat, a trench coat, the moustache if its even possible and holding up a little white flag.

Actually, I think this would be pretty funny. No more offensive than any of the propaganda cartoons produced during the war.

http://www.catsthatlooklikehitler.com/cgi-bin/seigbest.pl

Problem with grots is they're already communists.

Y'know? Every time I see one of these threads pop up, I can't help but laugh. So many people get so up in arms and all mad and stuff. "That will be offensive to some people" and the like. Somebody in this thread even likened a Nazi-esque theme to a pedophile army?!?!

Seriously? Talk about reaching...

This is always such a stupid arguement. It's not like he's making his Shokk Attack Guns to look like clay ovens with burning Grots in them. Just because people make Nazi-themed armies (most of them, anyway) it doesn't mean that they are celebrating Nazi ideology or anti-Semitism or bragging about the atrocities.

Why is it ok for me to paint a huge army of SS, Whermacht, and Luftwaffe for my 20mm WWII game? Does it make me a Nazi sympathizer because I love playing the German army in WWII games? No. I have several shirts, belt buckles, and rings that have skull and crossbones on them. Does this mean I am celebrating the SS Totenkoph Division? To be perfectly honest, NOBODY can claim that any other fighting force in WWII had better, cooler-looking uniforms than the Germans, SS in particular. I suppose I shouldn't listen Richard Wagner while playing 40k. Tristan und Isolde, The Valkyrie, etc. are sure to offend somebody on the game table seeing as he was an overt anti-semetic and Hitler called him "The Master" and considered him the official soundtrack for Nazi-ism.

I ask you people that are outraged and arguing against this idea: What about people that make Japanese-themed 40k armies? Why is it "cool" to have Rising Suns on your banners/shoulder pads? The Japanese were EVERY BIT as ruthless in their atrocities as the Germans in WWII. Every bit. Read about the Bataan Death March or the Rape of Nanking.
More specifically, read this part of the Nanking atrocities.


Let's just overlook the fact that his subject title said "JOKE" so that we can all talk about how butthurt we (or 'somebody') we would be if we saw an army like this. All you people raging against Nazi-themed armies... listen up. The next time somebody posts pics of WWII-era Japanese-themed 40k armies, whether it be a Rising Sun or any other iconography, remember these pics of what they did to the Chinese and ream them a new one for making such a terrible, tasteless, and offensive army:


Edit: Inappropriate images for a family-friendly site removed. --yakface


Such a stupid thread.
Make your damn Orks in Nazi colors and post LOTS of pics to piss these pansies off.



Ghidorah

Tarondor wrote:As OP I want to clear up a few things people seem to be getting wrong.

There will be no Sawstikas in my army. I actually asked if I should do one with an ork spin, but even asking that question shows I shouldn't really do it.
Second thing is the red arm bands are bearly recognisable as Nazi when put on orks, theres no white circle on them, just red bands, they look like any other piece of clothing.
Third; they're all in black red and white but its a common theme in 40k.

I don't think anyone would know these are Nazis unless I told them. If I put in anything even close to a swastica it's be rainbow coloured instead of red, with a white circle in the middle and a heart in the middle.

Plus the Hitler would be a Grot in a officers hat, a trench coat, the moustache if its even possible and holding up a little white flag.

The army won't be blatantly Nazi just the same kind of uniform. I hate the idea of everyone doing Nazi themed armies and this is a twist on it I've not seen anyone do...A piss take!

There really shouldn't be a problem then since you sound like you're taking the right approach; like you mentioned swastikas are a definite no-go but there are plenty of Ork symbols to use.

And its not like GW hasn't blatantly made Nazi-inspired armies or other ethically-horrible inspirations like Valhallans aka Red Soviets; the Steel Legion basically look like WW2 Germans. Hell, the Steel Legion's rules were even blitzkrieg inspired since they were mech-heavy.

Not to mention that there are historical and alternate history wargames available, one in particular being Secrets of the Third Reich. Beyond tabletop you'll find people reenacting WW2 in accurate costumes, playing as the Nazis in video games, or make money off of it via books/movies/etc.

I havent read the thread, but I know back in 2nd edition I think there was a themed nazi ork army out there either in WD or on the warp website....

Its fine. Some people will take offense, but there always will be some. Just dont act like an ass at the table with it and you should be ok.


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H.B.M.C. wrote:Well I would have thrown him out of my (hypothetical imaginary) store as well, but not for having an army with swastikas on it, more for being so unoriginal and unimaginative (and, I imagine, for making his army without any sense of irony).

As I said, it's quite possible to do a WWII German-themed army without resorting using Nazi symbols.

Though I wonder what would happen if someone made a Tau army based off of WWII-era Japan?

I've been tempted to do a marine army based on the Sigrunen, the double lightning, and the SS. Never once would I put the swastika in the army or models. But Not sure how that get accepted.

I'm going to go ahead and lock this thread as we're treading the same ground that has been tread before with nothing new being added to the discussion. If you'd like to read an even longer discussion on essentially the same topic please check out this thread:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/209982.page


But I'm going to take a second to address those who feel outraged on both sides of this issue.


Whenever you display something as your own, people will make judgements about who you are and the motivations behind your choice in displaying such things. For an extreme example, you could put a 'WHITE POWER' bumper sticker on your car and in your mind you could know that you are being satirical and making fun of white supremacists, but anyone seeing your car will likely think at face value that you indeed support the cause.

Whenever you take real-world iconography or designs that have negative connotations and put them into a game, you are sending a message of some sort. Once people talk to you or play you they may quickly realize that your designs are purely aesthetic or they are done for satirical purposes, but those who just walk by and see your army or see pictures of it on the internet are not going to have that chance and will end up making judgements just based on the appearance of the army itself.


Does that mean it is completely inappropriate to create an army that uses questionable real-world iconography? Of course not. But you have to realize that you WILL get mixed reactions from people and you WILL have some people making judgements about your character based on what you have chosen to display as your own creation.


For those that get angry when people are 'outraged' by this kind of thing, you have to realize that different life experiences result in different perspectives in people. One person may feel like 9/11 jokes are appropriate for any number of reasons, but someone else whose parents died in 9/11 would obviously be much more likely to never think it is appropriate to joke about.

So when you are chiding people for being so closed-minded, you may want to realize that you are being equally closed-minded of other people's opinions and life-experiences that have led them to feel that a miniature army featuring questionable real-world iconography is inappropriate.


And on the flip-side, for those people who get so angry at the idea of an army featuring this kind of iconography that you say you would 'punch someone in the face' if you saw it, do you not see how making a snap judgement about someone based on something that may or may not be the statement you think they are making doesn't help to solve anything except to create more anger and potential violence?

While you may feel that something is inappropriate shouldn't your response be to engage the person in some friendly questions before making the kind of judgement that would theoretically lead to a violent response? Clearly context does matter or else any parody of Nazis (like, as mentioned previously, Mel Brooks movies) should be earning your ire as well.


In the end, everyone needs to remember that each and every person is shaped by different life experiences and therefore will react to these types of situations differently. While you certainly can disagree with the choices someone makes, the more you try to understand their motivation before passing judgement the less irrational anger we will have in our world, let alone in our little toy soldier hobby.