Joke Nazi themed Orks

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**FITZZ**

H.B.M.C. wrote:Well get some tattoo's kind've like your avatar, and I doubt anyone will mess with you.

If I got tattoo's like my avatar my girl wouldn't even "mess" with me

**Haunted_Undead**

The issue should not be with the design as the swastika is infact a symbol of peace in Hindu. Just because it was used by the nazi`s does not make it a bad symbol. They could have used a celtic cross. At the end of the day its not the symbol that done the damage it was the people.

As for your ork idea. Go for it, its quirky and would fit in well if it was done correctly

**H.B.M.C.**

Most people don't know that though. They see that symbol and first thing that springs to mind is "ZOMG! Hitler!!!". That's why it is best to avoid the issue completely and leave out the Nazi and Axis symbols.

**Oldgrue**

FITZZ wrote:
Exactly how does one "tastefully" build an army themed after Nazis?

How does a historically thematic one stop being tasteful?
Graf von Stauffenburg wasn't the monster his affiliation presumes.
Rommel was a consummate professional, rather than a ravening desert horror.
Whites aren't all pig ignorant rednecks.
The Black Panthers had more than a few good ideas, despite their tactics.
Are these really taboo, or are they valid to explore?

**gameandwatch**

I think its fine, I mean orks are far worse than Nazis ever were anyway, plus, orks are rediculous in the first place, and it actually kinda makes sense. I mean, mad doks are definetly influenced by the 'chirurgens' the nazis employed to do 'experiments' on people, and its not like the nazis committed the only atrocities in the war, I mean the japanese practically tortured and killed thousands of chinese, vietnamese and war prisoners, and stalin killed like what, 30 million of his own people?

We have to take it down a notch at some point and look at the big picture, I mean, look how many people play and advocate space marines, or even the imperium in general... they are all a bunch of nazis!!

**yakface**

As for the original question posed in this thread, I'm just going to re-post what I wrote a while ago in this thread, which in turn was responding to this army:

yakface wrote:Obviously the use of potentially offensive real-world images in a science fiction miniature game is a tricky situation, as evidenced by the discussion on this forum. The reactions from people range from: "This is ridiculous it is a miniature game, it doesn't matter what you put on your models" to "The use of such themes and images is clearly a statement being pushed by the creator."

This sort of outrage and counter-outrage at the outrage is eeirly reminiscent of the last time a really well-painted model incorporated real-world iconography. . .Victor Hardy's Greater Daemon model that had an image of a daemonic Madonna/baby Jesus painted onto it.

What both these cases illustrate is that, like life, whenever you display something as your own, be it a t-shirt, bumper sticker, or miniature, this is a form of communication that other people will see, interpret and come to their own conclusions about you and why you have chosen to put forth whatever message they believe you are sending. The problem with a miniature (or any other work of art), is that the meaning behind the creator's work isn't always clear, at least not as clear as a T-shirt saying: "White Power!", which obviously has a pretty succinct message.

So without personally knowing the creator, or the ultimate goal or meaning of his work people are left to judge what has been put forth at face value and decide for themselves if it is a harmless incorporation of historical themes or rather it is a cleverly designed piece of propaganda.

I'm sure that if we were able to meet the creator in person, 95% of us would be able to judge in fairly short order what type of person he was and that judgement would quickly change our perception of his work. But the problem with the internet, or if we were to view pictures of the army in another format, is that we don't get to physically meet the person who created the army and without that basic connection many of us will forever be in doubt of their motives, no matter what they write about their intentions.

All of which begs the question: Even if the creator has absolutely no ill-will in mind with his work, why would he go to such (obviously) great lengths to create something that will be found in poor taste by a large percentage of the population? Gaming is a social hobby and for the most part the goal is for you and your opponent to have a good time playing against each other. So why would someone wish to create an army that they would essentially have to explain themselves everytime they play against a new player?

Which opens up a whole different slew of questions: Did the creator really think that no one would be offended by his work? If so, how could he possibly be so naive? If not, why would he want subject himself to the hassle of dealing with repeated negative allegations stemming from his work? Is he desperate for attention or does he really have an agenda he's trying to push?

Ultimately, these are legitimate questions that need to be asked and discussed by the gaming community as it will be people like us that play games against armies like this and everyone needs to be fully aware of how other people will react to different images. I think this army, and this discussion, have done a very good job of showing the different sides of this difficult subject.

Anytime you incorporate real-world iconography into your army you have to be prepared for people to interpret those symbols and come to their own conclusions about what you have created. The more potent the real-world symbol, the more likely that others will draw negative conclusions about your motives. Finally, if you use potent real-world images on your models knowing that you will draw negative reactions from a good percentage of people you show it to, what does that say about yourself?

And as for this statement:

JD21290 wrote:Going off topic slightly here, but i just wanted to ask something thats allways wound me up

Now, im by no means a racist person (i would lose my job if i was)
but now we find all these rappers refering to each other by the N word (much like i call someone a mate or a bud) yet thats fine.
Someone of another colour says it and its instant racism.

Ive just wondered that if it was so offensive, why do they use it as a friendly name to eachother?

The fact that you're actually seriously asking this question may indicate that you have some serious cultural insensitivity issues, IMHO, and I'll explain why:

Words have tremendous power as they have connotation behind them based on historical precdence and/or social references. Therefore the context and meaning of a word is highly dependent upon whom is saying it, the venue it is being said in, not to mention the tone and context that it is said in.

To give you an easy to understand example that may make more sense to you, take the words 'geek' or 'nerd'. Typically, when those words are used by those who don't consider themselves 'nerdy' or 'geeky' the connotation is a negative one: that 'nerds' and 'geeks' are odd, strange outcasts from society.

However, when someone who considers themselves a 'nerd' or 'geek' refers to themselves as one of these things or something as 'nerdy' or 'geeky' they are saying it with pride. They are indicating that although their tastes may be outside the cultural 'norm' they are proud of their station in life because it make them unique.

Can you therefore understand that WHO says the word changes its meaning? And can you see that using a label that is traditionally thought of negatively by a member of that group entitles the user to a sense of pride? In that they are taking something that was traditionally thought of negatively and turning it on its head and saying they are proud to be that?

Now the terms 'geek' and 'nerd' have only ever been very lightly negative, so in turn their use by 'geeks' and 'nerds' is equally not all that empowering.

However, the 'N' word has had an absolute horrible history, essentially being the byword for a concept that certain races of people are mentally and genetically inferior to others, and that this race wasn't worthy for equality, freedom, etc.

So this word has tremendous historical negative power behind it, which gives it the equal amount of positive power when used by someone who is considered part of that group. That word is their badge of honor now to wield as they see fit (as little or as much as they like) as a reminder to all of us about the horrible things our world is capable of when we arrogantly assume that one person, by birth, is ever 'better' than another person.

**Orkeosaurus**

solkan wrote:painting up Deathstrike missiles as ICBM's

**FITZZ**

Oldgrue wrote:
FITZZ wrote:
Exactly how does one "tastefully" build an army themed after Nazis?

How does a historically thematic one stop being tasteful?
Graf von Stauffenburg wasn't the monster his affiliation presumes.
Rommel was a consummate professional, rather than a ravening desert horror.
Whites aren't all pig ignorant rednecks.
The Black Panthers had more than a few good ideas, despite their tactics.
Are these really taboo, or are they valid to explore?

Well,to start I'm certianly in no way implying that all white people are ignorant rednecks,nor am I even saying that every single individule involved in the National Socialist party was a monster,hell honestly I don't view any person as "monstorous",simply cappable of great cruelty.
All I'm really getting at is, that using the Nazi party and Nazi Icons as a template for an army is ,IMO in poor taste,and will ,in all likelyhood create some situations that may become less than friendly.
Now,as far as exploring,researching,studing etc ANY political,social,religious etc, organization or philosiphy,I'm all for it,I don't advocate censorship..however,people should be prepared to deal with the negative reprecussions that the choices they make may have.

**Orkeosaurus**

Is your avatar from Dawn of the Dead?

**Haunted_Undead**

H.B.M.C. wrote:Most people don't know that though. They see that symbol and first thing that springs to mind is "ZOMG! Hitler!!!". That's why it is best to avoid the issue completely and leave out the Nazi and Axis symbols.

This is very true but its also a part of the problem. People automatically assume its evil and yet there is plenty of information out there if people were only to look. I in no way condone what happened during the war. Its where people have an idea that is shot down because of the too close mindedness of people an dhow it affects them.

Also the Imperial eagle design could be taken as offensive and has been. I know some people with it tattooed and they are forever having to explain what it actually is.

Fair? No. Its just the way people are.

The idea for the force itself with all the humour can be justified and I do think it is a good idea though some may not.

Each to there own though

**FITZZ**

Orkeosaurus wrote:Is your avatar from Dawn of the Dead?

Why yes it is,from the original movie poster.
And,as a matter of fact,(sort of in line with H.B.M.C's tattoo comment) I'm in the process of getting a colage of Romero Zombies Tattooed on my leg,including the one in my avatar. ( wow,I am so off topic it's nuts.

)

**Orkeosaurus**

Cool.

**Warboss Gutrip**

Nah, I am Jewish and not offended in the slightest. I think it would be a really cool/amusing theme.

**Mr.R4nd0m**

Okay if you make the Orks Nazi's you gotta make the Gretchin in little prison clothes with chains on their ankles maybe the little balls and chains too.

I personally have no problem with armies being panted/modeled after anything cause I have core values that I don't judge or force others into.

And I would model a Gretchin as Hitler instead of a warboss just cause that would be hilarious!

**the_Armyman**

Haunted_Undead wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:Most people don't know that though. They see that symbol and first thing that springs to mind is "ZOMG! Hitler!!!". That's why it is best to avoid the issue completely and leave out the Nazi and Axis symbols.

This is very true but its also a part of the problem. People automatically assume its evil and yet there is plenty of information out there if people were only to look. I in no way condone what happened during the war. Its where people have an idea that is shot down because of the too close mindedness of people an dhow it affects them.

Blah, blah, blah. The unwashed masses know that the swastika is not an exclusive or original symbol of Nazi Germany. However, grey fatigues, red armbands, and white circles, sans a swastika, are still just as evocative and leaves no doubt as to the origins of the imagery.

**Rico**

the_Armyman wrote:
Tarondor wrote:@ the_Armyman:

It's not to garner me attention, I've only ever posted like 15 messages or something and my other 2 threads are my army list.

So, you say it's not to garner attention, but 10-20% of all of your posts on Dakka are regarding making a Nazi-themed army. Your argument would make more sense if you had 1000 posts with half a dozen about Nazi figs, but I digress.

You've got to start somewhere. Why do you think scientists (or the fifth graders making projects on posterboards) test multiple times? Come back after he's at 1000 posts, then you can argue more.

People could easily say Nazi and Hitler imagery has no place in Comedy as a whole. Which misses the point. Comedy helps relieve a society and everyone likes taking the piss out of Hitler, thats why there's no problem.

The "comedy" you speak of will be next to nil in your army and will be seen by a handful of people. Making a mockery of the Nazis or joking about their incompetency (per Hogan's Heroes) is one thing. I have a feeling your wit will be poorly executed and difficult to actually find.

Without base nor reason. Keep thinking.

Infact I think I show more maturity being able to look at Nazis and not just be automatically 100% offended and be able to take the piss out of them. It's immature just crying every time the Nazis are brought into anything other than Historical or Moral discussions, thats just ignorant.

You asked for my opinion about what I thought of your idea. I find it unimaginative and poorly concieved. Who's crying?

No one is, he is using an example. Perhaps crying is a bit gratuitous, but the concept stands. Being touchy over anyone including "Nazi" in the sentence is just... Well, silly.

If I was Jewish I'd love people taking the piss out of Hitler, Why wouldn't I? Sure it's a sensitive issue but you're being comedic [bold]against[/bold] him.

Also, I've had several close friends die of Cancer, and if someone makes a cancer joke I can still see the humour in it. I think this is much more mature than just simply being offended all the time.

Everyone has had someone close to them die of cancer. Cancer doesn't care who you are. It has neither an ideology, nor an agenda. That being said, how do you feel about this army idea: 4th Edition daemonettes with bloody mastectomy scars; Imperial Guardsmen with their lower jaws surgically removed with a little oncology department display base; little, scratchbuilt, jaundiced babies with brown, cancerous lumps all over their bodies. Wouldn't that be an awesome army? That would be high-larious how I'm mocking cancer...

You're comparing an army that will be covered in straight up gay attire that will mock the Nazi regime in just about every way possible (the fact it's with the incredibly ragtag, unorganized orks says a lot too) is in no way comparable to cancerous infants. There isn't even an attempt at parody in your examples, a sick psychopathic feth would make armies like that, no one else. Here, how about I give you an example of an infanticide army, with imperial guardsman in jungle attire bashing babies against trees as their comrades cover a stricken crowd with AK 47s? Oh ho, what a perfect mothertrucking example to use in an argument!

Taking miniature figures into a temple would probably get a bad reaction regardless. And I'd like to think the more progressive Jewish people would not be going to temple but thats another issue altogether!

Why? Jewish people (or any people of faith) can't see the skill and artistry in painted figs? My point was that they may not find YOUR version of painted figs very humorous, no matter how hard you tried to explain to them that they shouldn't be "automatically 100% offended." After all, "It's immature just crying every time the Nazis are brought into anything other than Historical or Moral discussions, thats just ignorant."

Tell that one to grandma. You know, the one with the numbers tatooed on her wrist.

Err... No. I can't take my STG army to church, period. It's not appropriate, whether you've modelled your command squad after the apostles or German High Command, it's just not the place for them. It has nothing to do with skill and artistry, it has to do with the fact there's a time and place for everything, and sporting figures from a sci-fi galaxy with genocidal societies and genocidal wars going on is not something to bring up with the Pastor, Sheik, Monk, whatever.

Good Lord, this thread should be locked... Now.

Rico.

edit: 'scuse the weird quotes, I am not the most adept at this... You get the gist of my message though.

**Cryonicleech**

I wouldn't do it.

It wouldn't EVER end well.

**Rico**

Mr.R4nd0m wrote:Okay if you make the Orks Nazi's you gotta make the Gretchin in little prison clothes with chains on their ankles maybe the little balls and chains too.

...

No.

No.

That's akin to the KKK-dressed Munda figures lynch scene.

That's just... Wow... Unnecessary? Gratuitous? What else... Over the top? Idiotic? Dumb? Stupid?

With an army like that, people are definitely going to get pissed.

Rico...

/threadlockplsnao

**Trench-Raider**

A couple of quick points:

I'd punch whoever had that KKK army in the face. I really can't stand racism, it's just one of my pet peeves.

Go to jail. Go directly to jail. Do not pass go. Do not collect 200$.
Oh yes, and enjoy the closed door in your future due to having a felony assault charge on your record.
Seeing something that "offeeeeeends" you is never a justification for assault.

(edit

ops, forgot a pragraph)
But you are probably safe. I don;t for a moment that you would actually do something like that. It's just yet another example (much like the guy who on page two claimed he would "hunt down" a player with a Nazi themed army) of the "internet tough guy syndrome"

If I recall, the old Stormboys outfit was very similar to the WW2 German uniform.

I confess.
My stormboy unit (consisting of the old 2nd edition models that do have a strong Germanic feel to them) is painted up in grey uniforms, black helmets, and red arm bands with a single lightning bolt standing in for the swastika and no over-sensitive cone-head has ever complained.

TR

**the_Armyman**

Rico wrote:
the_Armyman wrote:
The "comedy" you speak of will be next to nil in your army and will be seen by a handful of people. Making a mockery of the Nazis or joking about their incompetency (per Hogan's Heroes) is one thing. I have a feeling your wit will be poorly executed and difficult to actually find.

Without base nor reason. Keep thinking.

Yes, because it's almost certainly plausible that his conversion skills will make it readily apparent that it's ajoke a not simply a Nazi Ork army. Yup, without base or reason, but a near certain probability.

Rico wrote:
the_Armyman wrote:
Everyone has had someone close to them die of cancer. Cancer doesn't care who you are. It has neither an ideology, nor an agenda. That being said, how do you feel about this army idea: 4th Edition daemonettes with bloody mastectomy scars; Imperial Guardsmen with their lower jaws surgically removed with a little oncology department display base; little, scratchbuilt, jaundiced babies with brown, cancerous lumps all over their bodies. Wouldn't that be an awesome army? That would be high-larious how I'm mocking cancer...

You're comparing an army that will be covered in straight up gay attire that will mock the Nazi regime in just about every way possible (the fact it's with the incredibly ragtag, unorganized orks says a lot too) is in no way comparable to cancerous infants. There isn't even an attempt at parody in your examples, a sick psychopathic feth would make armies like that, no one else. Here, how about I give you an example of an infanticide army, with imperial guardsman in jungle attire bashing babies against trees as their comrades cover a stricken crowd with AK 47s? Oh ho, what a perfect mothertrucking example to use in an argument!

Your example is just as ridiculous and valid as mine. Hyperbole FTW and thanks for contributing to my point!

Rico wrote:
the_Armyman wrote:Why? Jewish people (or any people of faith) can't see the skill and artistry in painted figs? My point was that they may not find YOUR version of painted figs very humorous, no matter how hard you tried to explain to them that they shouldn't be "automatically 100% offended." After all, "It's immature just crying every time the Nazis are brought into anything other than Historical or Moral discussions, thats just ignorant."

Tell that one to grandma. You know, the one with the numbers tatooed on her wrist.

Err... No. I can't take my STG army to church, period. It's not appropriate, whether you've modelled your command squad after the apostles or German High Command, it's just not the place for them. It has nothing to do with skill and artistry, it has to do with the fact there's a time and place for everything, and sporting figures from a sci-fi galaxy with genocidal societies and genocidal wars going on is not something to bring up with the Pastor, Sheik, Monk, whatever.

I'm sorry you can't take your minis to church. Sounds like a rather intolerant group. My minis are on display in my home, and both parishioners and clergy have seen my minis when they have visited my home. They've all been impressed at my skill. They have no idea of the setting or the "grimdarkness" of the genre, because I don't put such ridiculous imagery as Nazi symbols on my minis. See where I'm going here?

Rico wrote:Good Lord, this thread should be locked... Now.

Rico.

Of course it should! Rico has spoken and there can be no further discussion allowed.

**Orkeosaurus**

Don't forget that the concept is not without precedence.

However, the older ork models do have more of a comic style to them than the current range has.

**lord of the ghosts**

ork hitler!!!

ork hitler puts grechen in gas chambers, and ork hitler is slowed so i dont see anything wrong

**Mr.R4nd0m**

Rico you have an over confrontational attitude and are out to force your view on others where as I mearly voiced my idea you called it "Unnecessary? Gratuitous? What else... Over the top? Idiotic? Dumb? Stupid? "

Unnecessary like every thing that isn't food sleep and water yes its unnecessary.

As per the name calling I'm not going to address that blatant rule breaking, and would kindly recommend you un-subscribe from this thread if you feel the need to call more people names like that.

Edit: And sense I have given my opinion on the matter I'll take my leave and go about other business.

**H.B.M.C.**

Haunted_Undead wrote:Also the Imperial eagle design could be taken as offensive and has been. I know some people with it tattooed and they are forever having to explain what it actually is.

Oddly enough a friend of mine wants to get an Aquila tatoo, but knows he'd be forever explaining what it is.

**VictorVonTzeentch**

Orkestra wrote:Judging from the recent film 'Inglourious Basterds', they'd be perfectly okay with it.

Because people who fight injustice are heroes. There's really no comparison between the two.

As much as I enjoyed that movie, I was able to see that it was kinda pointing out that there isn't much of a difference between either side. Sure the Nazis liked to focus on specific groups of people, the Allies would (not just in the film) kill Germans simply to kill them. The Allies never got in trouble because they won the war.

the_Armyman wrote: Make all the comparisons you want with how terrible Stalin was compared to Hitler, but making Hitler minis and an army of red armband-wearing figs in a Fantasy/Sci-Fi setting is inappropriate and speaks a bit of your maturity.

Knee jerk reactions to things that happened over sixty years ago speak volumes about your maturity. If you're not able to handle references to regimes that GW themselves reference in their writing and even model design are you sure you are in the right hobby? There is no issue with making a model and showing that you are using something from history to represent something loosely inspired by various events through out it. The only time you should take offense to "Nazi" or WWII German imagery is if they have Swastikas and the SS thunderbolt runes plastered all over them, or as mentioned by some others Grots or even Imperials made up to look like they are in Death Camps, that is in bad taste.

If you or anyone else truly believes that it isn't offensive, put it to a very simple test: take your minis to temple on Friday and see how people react. Let us all know how that goes.

So you automatically assume that everyone is Jewish? Well that's beside the point. I believe this isn't offensive and the Jewish people I know wouldn't find it offinsive.

So OP, I say go for it, just stay away from Swastikas, SS runes and Death Camp Grots.

**HolyCause**

Howard A Treesong wrote:I don't think it's a problem as long as you're careful to land the right side of humourous so that nobody could mistake you for a white supremacist or something.

Good luck with that. Some people take offence at everything and anything even though for all intents and purposes you were trying to make light of the situation.

Someone, somewhere, somehow will always take offence. The question one has to ask is how much trouble are you going to get in for it (i.e., getting kicked out of a game/tournament)

**Rico**

the_Armyman wrote:
Rico wrote:Good Lord, this thread should be locked... Now.

Rico.

Of course it should! Rico has spoken and there can be no further discussion allowed.

Hmm, no. Sorry! You and I both know we're barely on topic, and it would not hurt the thread if we took our current argument outside (stick with me, I am working on my metaphors).

Rico.

**Hollismason**

The Orks actually had this in the Stormboyz old models were modeled very nazish and stated to be rather fascist I believe as thy were young orks and that is how they rebelled.

**Battle Brother Loken**

If people have a problem wiht your creativity then that is their problem and they just wont play games with you
but if your haunted and find it wrong then why are you even doing it?

**JohnHwangDD**

If you have to ask whether something is offensive / illegal / whatever, it probably is....

Yes, you're playing up the old Fluff, but not everybody will get it.

Personally, if you you leave out the red armbands and swastika insignia, I think you'll be fine.

And seriously, Nazi-themed stuff is *so* overdone and unoriginal. Go Russkie.