Black library news and rumours (including Horus Heresy stuff)...

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**Just Dave**

Neither

I like Night-Lords though!

**H.B.M.C.**

Thanatos_elNyx wrote:You know you lose when you start insulting people right?

Nonsense. You lose when you replace your arguments with insults (ie. Ad Hominem). I have not done so.

Thanatos_elNyx wrote: Though it is possible that you mean that in the American way rather than the European way. If so, I shall let it slide.

Ignorance
–noun
the state or fact of being ignorant; lack of knowledge, learning, information, etc.

To claim that the Ultramarines had 'nothing' to do in the Heresy, or that the Heresy was nothing but Legions v Legions, implies ignorance.

You've yet to answer this claim.

**Savnock**

BrookM wrote:The two missing legions are already discussed in the short story the Lightning Tower.

Might anyone be so kind as to briefly spoilerize this for those fluff nuts who find the idea of enduring a GW audiobook depressing?

**skrulnik**

Savnock wrote:
BrookM wrote:The two missing legions are already discussed in the short story the Lightning Tower.

Might anyone be so kind as to briefly spoilerize this for those fluff nuts who find the idea of enduring a GW audiobook depressing?

Sent you a PM

**H.B.M.C.**

Or just post it here.

**ph34r**

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/The_Dark_King_-_The_Lightning_Tower_(Audio_Book)

EDIT: hmm, I could have sworn that link used to contain more information. In any case, the 2 missing legions are described in the book by "Their separate tragedies had seemed like aberrations. Had they, in fact, been warnings that no one had heeded?"

EDIT2: And for the record, compared to the other legions around, the ultramarines did very little in the heresy. They basically sat around on the wrong side of the galaxy being successfully distracted by the Word Bearers.

**Thanatos_elNyx**

HMBC wrote:Ignorance
–noun
the state or fact of being ignorant; lack of knowledge, learning, information, etc.

In Europe, if you call someone Ignorant, you are saying that they are willfully ignorant and that is a grave insult.
In America, you are simply pointing out that they lack knowledge on a particular subject.

HMBC wrote:To claim that the Ultramarines had 'nothing' to do in the Heresy, or that the Heresy was nothing but Legions v Legions, implies ignorance.

You've yet to answer this claim.

I never claimed either of these things.
You mistook both original statements and you seem to have not read my last post where I pointed out both of your errors.

**skrulnik**

H.B.M.C. wrote:Or just post it here.

If I had read it I would have.
I just told him where to find it.

**Scottywan82**

Thanatos_elNyx wrote:
HMBC wrote:Ignorance
–noun
the state or fact of being ignorant; lack of knowledge, learning, information, etc.

In Europe, if you call someone Ignorant, you are saying that they are willfully ignorant and that is a grave insult.
In America, you are simply pointing out that they lack knowledge on a particular subject.

HBMC is Australian, not American. Not even America could produce an HMBC.

Also, I'm fairly certain the meaning of ignorance does not change on one side of an ocean.

**Thanatos_elNyx**

Scottywan82 wrote:HBMC is Australian, not American. Not even America could produce an HMBC.

So it was mentioned, but I don't know what Australians mean when they call someone Ignorant.
From his def I assume he meant it in the unoffensive sense.

Scottywan82 wrote:Also, I'm fairly certain the meaning of ignorance does not change on one side of an ocean.

What pray tell does the word 'Fanny' mean in America?
Afaik, in America it refers to ones ... Gluteus Maximus.
In English speaking Europe, it refers to the female genitalia.

If this can have a totally different meaning, then I think Ignorance can have slightly different meanings.

**Just Dave**

But 'Fanny' is slang and will have various meanings, whereas Ignorance is dictionary defined as HBMC put it...

anyway this is likely to get locked for straying off topic...

**legoburner**

Correct, no more posts on this offtopic stuff or I will be locking the thread.

**Thanatos_elNyx**

Fair enough.

Hey Legoburner, any other hints as to the target of the Protagonist in Nemesis?

**legoburner**

Nope they skirted around saying it was a fairly major character but didnt even say that explicitly.

**Malika2**

ph34r wrote:
EDIT2: And for the record, compared to the other legions around, the ultramarines did very little in the heresy. They basically sat around on the wrong side of the galaxy being successfully distracted by the Word Bearers.

Before the HH novels very little was known about what most of the Legions did before and during the Horus Heresy. I guess the Ultramarines were still carrying out their Great Crusade when the Heresy started. Then when they heard info about Horus' betrayal they immediately turned for Terra, only to run into the Word Bearers who started attacking Ultramar.

**Alpharius**

Malika2 wrote:
ph34r wrote:
EDIT2: And for the record, compared to the other legions around, the ultramarines did very little in the heresy. They basically sat around on the wrong side of the galaxy being successfully distracted by the Word Bearers.

Before the HH novels very little was known about what most of the Legions did before and during the Horus Heresy. I guess the Ultramarines were still carrying out their Great Crusade when the Heresy started. Then when they heard info about Horus' betrayal they immediately turned for Terra, only to run into the Word Bearers who started attacking Ultramar.

That is a very good point of course.

It is fun to poke fun at the Ultramarines, but we all know that they were up to a lot of good during the Crusade, and after it too...

Still, THAT'S where I think the 3 books should be - set after the Heresy, not really during.

**WC_Brian**

Da Boss wrote:I can't say I'm excited. Except for Horus Rising, the quality of writing in the series has been so inconsistent I can't bear to read any more. I thought they were really going somewhere interesting with that first book, and then it was all just bleh.
I heard a lot of people rating Flight of the Eisenstein highly for example, so I was really excited to pick it up and read it, and it was bloody terrible. The baddies were like Panto villains with bugger all motivation. Seriously. That one dude that turns into a daemon prince or whatever was only lacking a twiddly fecking moustache.

Ya know this stuff is pulp fiction right?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Scottywan82 wrote:
GW books are like Star Wars books. They're gak, but they're easy-to-read gak. The Dark Angels aren't as bad as some of the others, either. But none of them are good. They just are too unfocused and too poorly edited.

While I generally agree I think there are a few exceptions like Storm of Iron and Daemon World and I can't think of anything else right now. At least their stories are interesting enough that it doesn't matter that they are not exceptional literary works.

**combatmedic**

It also depends on the subject of the book. It could be the "greatest book ever written about ultramarines", if you dislike the smurfs or space marines in general, its not going to pull you in. For me personally I found the Ad Mech and DA book many times more fun to read than the other books, even more so for space wolves.

It all comes down to what you enjoy.

**Scottywan82**

WC_Brian wrote:

Scottywan82 wrote:
GW books are like Star Wars books. They're gak, but they're easy-to-read gak. The Dark Angels aren't as bad as some of the others, either. But none of them are good. They just are too unfocused and too poorly edited.

While I generally agree I think there are a few exceptions like Storm of Iron and Daemon World and I can't think of anything else right now. At least their stories are interesting enough that it doesn't matter that they are not exceptional literary works.

See, that's funny, because I thought both of those were awful. Particularly Daemon World. Whatever, lol, so it's specifically like the NJO series for Star Wars. Some is awesome, some is utter crap, and no one can agree on which is which.

**Carlovonsexron**

Samus666 wrote:So far I've read Horus Rising, False Gods, Battle for the Abyss, and Legion. I thought False Gods was strongest. I like Dan Abnett's style of writing, but find his habit of practically ignoring the most important characters and events infuriating.

I guess that means that, according to the common conception of what they were doing, the Ultramarines are a perfect fit for abnett during that time period..

seriously though, I wouldn't mind seeing what comes of these books...

**Da Boss**

WC_Brian wrote:
Da Boss wrote:I can't say I'm excited. Except for Horus Rising, the quality of writing in the series has been so inconsistent I can't bear to read any more. I thought they were really going somewhere interesting with that first book, and then it was all just bleh.
I heard a lot of people rating Flight of the Eisenstein highly for example, so I was really excited to pick it up and read it, and it was bloody terrible. The baddies were like Panto villains with bugger all motivation. Seriously. That one dude that turns into a daemon prince or whatever was only lacking a twiddly fecking moustache.

Ya know this stuff is pulp fiction right?

Sure it's pulp. Bad pulp. I appreciate good pulp as much as the next man, but Flight of the Eisenstein was just embarassing.

As to yer man that liked Flight but hated First and Only- you have the complete opposite taste to me!

I gotta say, I thought the series would move along faster. There seems to be a good bit of time wasting going on right now.

**reds8n**

Whilst we have this thread open then : a few snippets you migt have missed

Next summer sees the launch of Warhammer Heroes – a range of novels dealing with some of the Old World's biggest, most iconic warriors. We all agreed that the covers needed to convey the epic stature of these larger-than-life characters, so we commissioned Cheol Joo Lee, the artist behind the jaw-dropping cover for Nick Kyme's Salamander. The first book in the series is called Sword of Justice and concerns the Emperor's champion and standard bearer, Ludwig Schwarzhelm. It's being written by Chris Wraight of Iron Company fame and will go on sale next July. We decided to get all fancy pants with the series design, so the artwork will wrap around the jacket and have no text on it all. All the titling will sit underneath on a second piece of cover stock. I'm probably not making myself very clear, but if you look at the mock-up you should get the gist. The finished artifact should look pretty darn spiffing...

After Istvaan V, Horus declares outright war against the Imperium. In the shadows of the Emperor's Palace, powerful figures convene. Their plan - to send a team of assassins to execute the arch-traitor Horus and end the war for the galaxy of mankind before it's even begun. But what they cannot know is that another assassin is abroad already, with his sights firmly set on killing the Emperor.

Aaron Dembski-Bowden had the following to say with regards to the Night Lords and the HH -- the buzz over his forthcoming 41stM Night Lords novel is very solid and promising.

I get asked this from time to time, and I suspect I'll get asked it that much more when Soul Hunter is released in March next year. I'm making this in a public move to have something to link to when I get asked in the future.

The Question: "Aaron, will you write about the Night Lords in the Horus Heresy?"

The Answer: No. Probably not.

The Follow-Up: "Why not?"

The Reply: Well, there are five reasons.

The first reason is because I don't want to do it. In 25 years of conflicting lore, overlapping truths, fethed-up timelines and changing events, the Night Lords in the Horus Heresy are among the worst cases of "None of this gak makes sense"-ness. People are already hugely confused on just what events happen, and when. Hell, I'm one of them. We're at a point where the first books have made it look like the Traitor Legions are about to do nothing but make full speed to the Siege of Terra, when there's supposed to be 4 years or so before they arrive.

I don't want to go near the Night Lords Heresy timeline. I've tried to make notes on it before, and it was like listening to Cradle of Filth while a dwarf took a hammer to my balls. I enjoyed, like, zero percent of the experience. And that's rounding up.

The second reason is because of Zso Sahaal. Zso Sahaal was the main character in Simon Spurrier's Lord of the Night - the one-off Night Lords book that was released by BL several years ago. Lord of the Night was a good book, and I enjoyed it a lot. It's certainly among the better-written BL novels out there, and Simon Spurrier is a fething killer writer.

I didn't really like Zso Sahaal that much, though. I felt the entire book was evocative and atmospheric, but not a great look at the Legion, and Zso Sahaal was the principle issue in that. He was all about how he alone was pure and awesome enough to be just like his primarch father's intentions, and absolutely everyone else was weak and corrupt. I got tired of constantly being told how he was the best. All right, I get it. Enough now, Drizzt.

Strangely, he fainted all the time, for no reasons I could really discern, like a woman in a 50s Tom & Jerry cartoon who happens to see a mouse. He was staggeringly self-important, not only in his own arrogance (which was a beautifully-written part of his character), but in how he was absolutely the most important Astartes in the entire Night Lords Legion (which was... just a bit silly). He claimed he was the primarch's heir, which is something many people could easily claim, and is an interesting aspect to his character arc. But then on the other hand, he tells us that he invented Raptors / Jump-pack Assault Squads.

No, Zso Sahaal. No, you really didn't. You, one little guy in the Night Lords, were not the one guy who invented Raptors and spread them to a million other Astartes across the burgeoning Imperium. I'm fairly certain, y'know, the Emperor... or one of his demigod primarch sons... I'm fairly certain these overlords in control of an entire galaxy didn't go to you for advice on how to get into close combat a little bit faster. The Mechanicum came right to you when they'd invented jump-packs? They were like "Hey, Wolverine, you want to have these and show them to the Emperor and the primarchs? Maybe take all the credit for the science part?"

No.

All of this aside, I have a lot of love for Simon Spurrier's work, especially on Judge Dredd with the Simping Detective. He sweats talent. Just because I don't like Zso Sahaal doesn't mean I didn't like the book (which rocked) or his work (which rocks even harder).

However, as First Captain of the Legion, a character I can't relate to would be pretty much everywhere in a Night Lords Horus Heresy Series story. So... no. That's reason 2, and while it's actually the least important, it's also the most difficult to explain (which is why it needed so many words compared to the others), and is certainly the one people will whine most at me about.

The third reason is because of that freaking killer audio book Graham wrote. When it comes to reasons of "But another writer already did X, Y and Z..." this is the real deal.

At this stage, I'd rate The Dark King as part of Graham's best work, alongside Mechanicum and Fulgrim. It's a killer part of the HH series, and it deals with the Night Lords' primarch: from his deviancy to his arrest and imprisonment by Rogal Dorn, to his escape and the destruction of Nostramo... all of which leads right into the Isstvan Massacres.

With the greatest respect to Graham, those are the best fething bits.

That, I assume, is why he chose to write them, and in turn, why The Dark King is such a killer story. Why would I want to rehash that? Well, the answer is that I wouldn't. Could I expand upon something I already regard as next to perfect? Uh, sure. But I don't want to. Next.

The fourth reason is because I'm already dealing with a lot of this stuff in the Night Lords series. Shadow Knight showed a glimpse of Night Lord warfare back then, and Talos's induction into the Legion. Soul Hunter has a great deal about how losing the Heresy has broken the Night Lords, and the repercussions of that defeat. It also has memories of the primarch, and events during the Heresy itself.

The Night Lords aren't like imperial Astartes; they can delve deep into the galaxy's ancient past, because to them it's not really the past at all. Given the way the warp eats time, for many of them, the Horus Heresy wasn't that long ago - and just as they are shaped by a conflict that's mere mythology to most people, they're still pissed off about it. They're still reacting to it. It defines a lot of them, and gives them purpose.

The Night Lords I'm writing about in their own series were there, back in the Heresy. It's fresh in their memories. It's something they still dwell upon. So naturally, in flashbacks, thoughts and the ins 'n outs of cause and effect, there's a fair amount of stuff in these new books that will deal with what the Legion did back then.

This is essentially having my cake and eating it, but whatever. It's also a great way to tell an interesting story about Traitor Astartes. Dare I say it? The best way.

The fifth and final reason is the most important, and that's simply because I have other ideas. My dislike for writing a Horus Heresy novel about the Night Lords isn't founded on negativity, but positivity. I have other ideas I want to explore. Other, more interesting plots that I'd like to look into and bring to the light. It's less about avoiding a difficult issue than it is about being instinctively and creatively drawn to doing other things.

On one level, I think only a sucker would get given the invitation into the Horus Heresy circle and then say "Cool, yeah, I'll... keep doing exactly the same stuff I've been doing so far, about the same guys, in the same army, in the same fights."

Oh, no.

I have plans, me.

As I said at Games Day, the working title for the novel I'm about to start writing is The First Heretic.

Now go. Tell the internet. See if I care

..as you command I guess...

There's an ork at the bottom of this cover who's having a really bad day. I'm not sure how he's managed to lose his entire body, but I have a feeling he might never fully recover. Helsreach is the second of our Space Marine Battles series and the artwork is by the wonderful Jon Sullivan – a man with more talent than is probably legal. The book's released in May and should look very dapper - it will be in the same large format as our omnibus editions and feature a selection of full colour tactical maps.

This is the same series that is about to feature the Crimson Fists/Rynn's World saga..... a clever company would, I dunno, release a bitz pack or something to go alongside..hmmm...

and from the mouth...well, fingers of Gav Thorpe over on Warseer

I know less about BL's plans now than when I was liaising with them as a games developer! I don't even know when the next book I'm writing for them [<plug> Space Marine Battles series, guys with funky robes and green armour </plug>] will be out

.... I wonder if this will be about the Piscina campaign ? That's the most famous DA battle that I can recall outside of the HH anyway.

and the cover for the summer 2010 omnibus of the Shia Calpurnia series... this will, I believe, have the obilgatory extra few odds and sods to entice your monies out of your wallets.

**BrookM**

I like Aaron, his Cadian novel was a fine romp and his honest and expletive laden blog posts are such an improvement over the swill over at the old BL site.

And hurrah for a Shira Capurnia omnibus, I'd much rather have a new novel in the series but oh well, this will do.

**lords2001**

Dude, I had a look through the BL schedule - I don't love every single release, but I have enjoyed at least some of every book I've read (which is mainly the more recent ones).

Heck, if there is someone from BL who reads this - I will downpay every new release (that isn't an omnibus of something I already own) for the next year, if you just deliver them to me and don't make me wait for Aus GW to get them in.

**reds8n**

Can you not, currently at least, order them direct from GW ? and get them that way ?

oh, finished cover art :

**BrookM**

Pity that BL is mostly putting out series these days, I kinda miss the one-off novels like Necromancer, Lord of the Night and other such great non-serialized novels.

**Shaman**

So that Aaron guy basicailly says.. yeah you ruined night lords with that Zhu character but your a great writer..

Lawl..

**reds8n**

Gav Thorpe's Space Marine Battles book is called " Purging of Kadillus ".... I assume there might be supposed to be a "The" in there somewhere.

..which is the main continent on Piscina IV..so..wonder if we'll get to read about Vet. Serg. Naaman and Koth Ridge then.

**Gridge**

Alpharius wrote:
Malika2 wrote:
ph34r wrote:
EDIT2: And for the record, compared to the other legions around, the ultramarines did very little in the heresy. They basically sat around on the wrong side of the galaxy being successfully distracted by the Word Bearers.

Before the HH novels very little was known about what most of the Legions did before and during the Horus Heresy. I guess the Ultramarines were still carrying out their Great Crusade when the Heresy started. Then when they heard info about Horus' betrayal they immediately turned for Terra, only to run into the Word Bearers who started attacking Ultramar.

That is a very good point of course.

It is fun to poke fun at the Ultramarines, but we all know that they were up to a lot of good during the Crusade, and after it too...

Still, THAT'S where I think the 3 books should be - set after the Heresy, not really during.

It would be a big disappointment for many not to chronicle what the Ultramarines did during the heresy. They are a major chapter and there is no reason not to expand on the role they played. Plus, as is mentioned above they did indeed battle another legion even if they didn't split themselves. I think that some just don't care for the Ultras and are letting this influence their perception of fairness. They are by no means my favorite chapter but the tale of the heresy would seem incomplete if they were left out.

**Kanluwen**

reds8n wrote:Gav Thorpe's Space Marine Battles book is called " Gav Thorpe's DA book will be called " Purging of Kadillus ".... I assume there might be supposed to be a "The" in there somewhere.

..which is the main continent on Piscina IV..so..wonder if we'll get to read about Vet. Serg. Naaman and Koth Ridge then.

Oh man. Awesome. Naaman was a classic character, and should be brought back to the DA codex.

Also, it's worth mentioning that the newest Gaunt's Ghost novel "Blood Pact" comes out on Tuesday.