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I actually already defined "result", but here we go again.

re⋅sult
–verb (used without object)
1. to spring, arise, or proceed as a consequence of actions, circumstances, premises, etc.; be the outcome.
2. to terminate or end in a specified manner or thing.
–noun
3. something that happens as a consequence; outcome.
4. Mathematics. a quantity, expression, etc., obtained by calculation.
5. Often, results. a desirable or beneficial consequence, outcome, or effect: We had definite results within weeks.
—Idiom
6. get results, to obtain a notable or successful result or response; be effective.

We are currently dealing with "results" as a noun. We thus need only concern ourselves with definitions 3, 4, and 5.

So, #3; something that happens as a consequence; outcome.

NOTE: This does NOT say, "everything" that happens as an outcome, only "something". An individual "result" is ANYTHING that happens as a consequence of an action.

Now, GW wrote that "the result", singular, must be a double 1 or double 6. Unfortunately, this is nonsensical. A roll of 2d6 has three results; that is, the result of one die, the result of the other die, and the result of both together. A roll of 3d6 has 7 results; the result of die 1, the result of die 2, the result of die 3, the result of dice 1&2, the result of dice 1&3, the result of dice 2&3, and the result of all 3 together.

In short, referring to "the result" of anything but a mathematical operation makes no sense. There's more than one. If you take this literally, a player could always avoid PotW simply by choosing a result which does not bring it into effect. In this case, therefore, we must conclude that GW meant "a result", not "the result".

We then consider ALL results of the die roll, whether 2d6 or 3d6, and determine whether ANY ONE of them is a double 1, or a double 6. If so, the psyker suffers a PotW attack.

QED

Ok, so everyone who posted after Drunkspleen posted an excellent example of why Panic is looney, why is this still being argued.

Combat drugs kill if triples are scored depending on how many drugs you take. Taking all 6 would then somehow make you immune to the effects? The answer is NO. a double is 2 of the same dice and x how ever many other dice. Get over it.

sbeasley: you are just plain wrong, and conveniently side stepping everything that has been said to prove you wrong. A PoTW is a result of double 1s, not a 2 as you say. You can say that they "really meant 2", but unless you are doing the writing at GW then you don't know what they really meant.

So, let's work off of the assumption that they "really meant" what they "really wrote", which is PoTW goes off on a double 1 or 6.

Now, maybe DE was written a while ago, but that does not change the nature of how GW views a double. It's something that has nothing to do with rules, but how you view the concept of double. Obviously, the DE rule indicates that a double can be part of a set of dice of whatever number of dice.

I know you must really really dislike having to determine a potw on 3d6, but them's the rules. If you don't want to play by them, play "sbeasley Presents 40k (2.0)"--it will be awesome, with a small elite player base.

Also, you broke down combat drugs as {x}{x}{x} and RoWar as {xxx}.

However, what we really have is:

RoWar {x x x}

CD [{x} {x} {x}]

They are both part of a set. One is rolled simultaneously and the other not, but they are still one set of results. So if doubles don't count for the first set they shouldn't count for the second. So I guess I'll just always take 4 drugs and after the third drugs kills me the 4th one can negate that ill effect.

Okay let me get this straight, if you think each die is a result, and each combination of dice is a result then on a roll of {1, 1, 1} there would be three separate and distinct instances of double 1, so there would be three PotW. That is just crazy. Plus a leadership test already defines "the result" as the sum of the dice. There is no other result that happens, as a Psychic Test is a normal Leadership Test as per the rules, so dictionary references to result do not apply as GW conveniently provided us with the definition.

CD allows you to roll multiple die, and take each die as it's own result, because that is part of the rule, it also then says that if any of the dice you rolled come up with doubles or triples then use these rules. It's going from a small results set to a greater result set.

PotW the result set is 2d6, but RoWar make it 3d6. The result set is 3d6, not smaller. No were does it give language to break the result set up.

Look at RoWit it says to roll 3d6, but take the lowest 2, you are given permission to break the result set up, so you can get PotW.

I repeat "the result" for Leadership Tests has already been defined. You must use that definition for "the result"

{1,1,1} does have 3 distinct sets of double ones, but one can only exist at a time. For instance to make things simple, you have a set of {1a,1b,1c} you can have a set{1a,1b} or {1a,1c} or {1b,1c} but you can only ever have one of these sets at the same time because the elements of the set cannot be repeated.

tiekwando wrote:{1,1,1} does have 3 distinct sets of double ones, but one can only exist at a time. For instance to make things simple, you have a set of {1a,1b,1c} you can have a set{1a,1b} or {1a,1c} or {1b,1c} but you can only ever have one of these sets at the same time because the elements of the set cannot be repeated.

Precisely. So {1,1,1} results in 1 PoTW, as does {1,1,2} or {1,6,1} etc.


EDIT: read the poster name incorrectly lol.

I think it is funny how I'm the only one, who is quoting rules to explain my self, yet everyone else wants to pull out the dictionary, or give real life examples. Let's follow the rules people.

sbeasley wrote:I think it is funny how I'm the only one, who is quoting rules to explain my self, yet everyone else wants to pull out the dictionary, or give real life examples. Let's follow the rules people.

Actually, I quoted DE rules. When you quote the rules but don't know what the word double means, it doesn't really help, does it.


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sbeasley wrote:Okay let me get this straight, if you think each die is a result, and each combination of dice is a result then on a roll of {1, 1, 1} there would be three separate and distinct instances of double 1, so there would be three PotW. That is just crazy. Plus a leadership test already defines "the result" as the sum of the dice. There is no other result that happens, as a Psychic Test is a normal Leadership Test as per the rules, so dictionary references to result do not apply as GW conveniently provided us with the definition.

Nope. See post immediately following yours.

sbeasley wrote:

CD allows you to roll multiple die, and take each die as it's own result, because that is part of the rule, it also then says that if any of the dice you rolled come up with doubles or triples then use these rules. It's going from a small results set to a greater result set.

Yep. Hey guess what, still ONE SET.

sbeasley wrote:
PotW the result set is 2d6, but RoWar make it 3d6. The result set is 3d6, not smaller. No were does it give language to break the result set up.

You are not breaking the result up, you are looking at the set as a whole and identifying double 1s

sbeasley wrote:
Look at RoWit it says to roll 3d6, but take the lowest 2, you are given permission to break the result set up, so you can get PotW.

I repeat "the result" for Leadership Tests has already been defined. You must use that definition for "the result"

The "result" is 2 dice. If they are both 1 or 6, that's a perils. If the addition of the result is greater than your leadership, the test is failed.

For RoWard, the "result" is 3 dice. If any two are 1 or 6, that's a perils. If the addition of the result is greater than your leadership, the test is failed. If the addition of the result is greater than 12, that's a perils.


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Also, take rending weapons as another example.

I fire my assault cannon at you and roll {6,6,6,6}

Rending states that a roll to hit of 6 is a rend.

Damn, I just rolled 4 6's, not "a" 6, so no rends.

Your argument is ludicrous. You can't look at the result of a multiple dice roll as one chunk and disregard the individual values of each die.

BGB pg8 Leadership Tests wrote:Tests made against the Leadership characteristic (like Morale checks) are different from other tests. In the case of a Leadership test, roll 2D6 (two dice added together, as explained earlier). If the result is equal to or less than the model’s Leadership, the test is passed.

The result isn't 2 dice. The result of any Leadership Test are the sum of the dice.

I think we need to stop bringing in DE Combat Drugs, because it isn't a leadership test, and thus isn't applicable to the discussion and just causes confusion.

All we have to go on are how Leadership Tests are taken into account, and wargear that modifies it. I only know of RoWar and RoWit both in the Eldar Codex. Both explicitly tell you what you can do.

BGB pg50 Perils of the Warp wrote:If the result of a Psychic test is either a double 1 or double 6 this indicates that something horrible has happened to the psyker. The forces of the Daemonhaunted Warp claw at the psyker’s mind and threaten to engulf and destroy him. The psyker suffers 1 wound with no armour or cover saves allowed. Invulnerable saves are allowed, but the power of the Warp is so great that successful saves must be re-rolled. Note that a psyker who rolls double 1 will still use his power, even if he is wounded or killed as a result.

If the result, which is the result of the Leadership Test. Which has been defined as the sum of the dice. In conclusion, if the dice rolled are summed and that is "the result", on 3d6 "the result" can never be double 1 or double 6, as that is only part of "the result".


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apwill4765 wrote:Also, take rending weapons as another example.

I fire my assault cannon at you and roll {6,6,6,6}

Rending states that a roll to hit of 6 is a rend.

Damn, I just rolled 4 6's, not "a" 6, so no rends.

Your argument is ludicrous. You can't look at the result of a multiple dice roll as one chunk and disregard the individual values of each die.

Your argument is ludicrous. You are taking weapon shots and comparing them to a leadership test, where weapon shots are there own distinct result by themselves, where a Leadership test the individual dice mean nothing, only the combined result means something.

Rulebook Pg. 50 wrote:
PERILS OF THE WARP
If the result of a Psychic test is either a double 1 or double 6 this indicates that something horrible has happened to the psyker. ... The psyker suffers 1 wound with no armour or cover saves allowed. ... Note that a psyker who rolls double 1 will still use his power, even if he is wounded or killed as a result.

From this we see that the result is either a double 1 or a double 6. Not a result is double 1 or double 6.

Rulebook Pg. 50 wrote:
Psykers can use one psychic power per player turn. To use a psychic power successfully the psyker must pass a Psychic test, which is a normal Leadership test.

From this we see that a Psychic test is a normal leadership test.

Rulebook Pg. 8 wrote:
In the case of a Leadership test, roll 2D6 (two dice added together, as explained earlier). If the result is equal to or less than the model’s Leadership, the test is passed.

We see that 2 dice a rolled and added together for a basic leadership test.

Eldar Codex Pg26 wrote:
Runes of Warding: ... All enemy Psychic tests must be taken on 3D6, suffering a Perils of the Warp attack on any roll of 12 or above.

From this we see that a psychic test is taken on 3D6. Perils of the Warp will occur on a roll of 12 or above. This means that any result in this set {12,13,14,15,16,17,18}.

The basic leadership test is now taken on 3D6 instead of 2D6 which replaces how the test is taken. A section in this rule also defines how Perils of the Warp is figured out based on that roll (one that scored a 12 or greater. This replaces the Perils of the Warp roll because it is stating exactly how it occurs. Any roll of 12 or above is when perils of the warp occurs. The Codex is very specific on when the Perils of the Warp attack occurs. 12 or greater. Since the codex is specifying when Perils of the Warp occurs we no longer use the rules for determining when a Perils of the Warp occurs because we have a rule that replaces that section.

How the logic in the above statement goes is that the specifics of a particular rule and is subsequent rules in relation to it are being changed. The general rule is Psychic Tests and the subsequent rule that extend from this rule is the Perils of the Warp. The general rule is changed by the codex from tests being done on a 2D6 instead of a 3D6. This directly affects the subsequent rules (Perils of the Warp) and the codex specifies how this subsequent rule is resolved (on a roll of 12 or greater).

To me this is an instance of Specific > General. When Psychic Tests are Taken against Runes of Warding it is more Specific than when a Psychic Test is taken in general. You do not need the Words "instead of on a double 6 or a double 1" or "only on a roll of 12 or greater" because it is changing the general rules.

Also taking a subset of the the result to be the result of the set is not the actual result of the set. It is a subset of the result. The rolls do not say roll each dice individually and see if any subset of the 3 rolls are doubles (or a pair). The result is (1a,1b,1c). Subsets of this result are (1a) (1b) (1c) (1a,1b) (1a, 1c) (1b,1c) (1a,1b,1c). These subsets ARE NOT the result. They are subsets of the result. The result is (1a,1b,1c). This result is a triple 1. It contains subsets that are doubles but the result is not a double.


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apwill4765 wrote:
Also, take rending weapons as another example.

I fire my assault cannon at you and roll {6,6,6,6}

Rending states that a roll to hit of 6 is a rend.

Damn, I just rolled 4 6's, not "a" 6, so no rends.

Your argument is ludicrous. You can't look at the result of a multiple dice roll as one chunk and disregard the individual values of each die.

Actually when you do rending each roll is a D6. When you do a leadership test the roll is a 2D6. When you roll with leadership in this argument it is 3D6. Just because you roll 4 dice with an assault cannon does not make it 4D6. It makes it 4 separate D6 rolls. You're argument is flawed. Now Melta guns are a different issue because they roll 2D6 for penetration. In your argument above I add all of the rolls together because you are effectively stating that I rolled 4D6 and got a 24 on my rolls ... 24 BOOM goes your land raider! I win!

If the result of a Psychic test is either a double 1 or double 6...

All enemy Psychic tests must be taken on 3D6, suffering a Perils of the Warp attack on any roll of 12 or above.

Do these rules conflict? Psychic tests from the BRB say that if you roll a double 1 or double 6 you take a PotW. Eldar RoWa say that you now roll a 3d6 instead of a 2d6 and take a PotW if you roll 12 or above. I see this as case of additional rules, as you can still roll double 1s or double 6s with 3 dice. If rules do not conflict we apply both. I personally read them as not conflicting.

No, the roll is done as a whole (look up how to roll for weapons) It is thrown in one go, not each D6 on its own. For an ass cannon it would be 4D6.



and beas:

By your definition POTW can NEVER happen. You're crazy. You say
"Which has been defined as the sum of the dice. In conclusion, if the dice rolled are summed and that is "the result", on 3d6 "the result" can never be double 1 or double 6, as that is only part of "the result"."

If Ld result is the sum of the dice, then the results are 2-12. Never 2 1s or 2 6s, since you never look at individual dice.


That.. that's just insane man. You can't have your rules interpretation work for 3d6 and totally fall apart for 2d6

Part of a result is a result. If you're too thick to allow that into your brain, we will just have to avoid games in which on of us is Eldar =P

k I gotta go to class.


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Your argument is ludicrous. You are taking weapon shots and comparing them to a leadership test, where weapon shots are there own distinct result by themselves, where a Leadership test the individual dice mean nothing, only the combined result means something.

Uh no, the individual dice do mean something in LD, just as in shooting. Because if one die is 1, and the other die is 1 (NOT IF THE RESULT ADDS TO 2, THAT IS NOT WHAT THE RULE SAYS-- It states if DOUBLE 1s or 6s are rolled, (i.e. look at the DICE not the SUM)) then you suffer PoTW

Your argument is ludicrous no tagbacks.

sbeasley wrote:

BGB pg8 Leadership Tests wrote:Tests made against the Leadership characteristic (like Morale checks) are different from other tests. In the case of a Leadership test, roll 2D6 (two dice added together, as explained earlier). If the result is equal to or less than the model’s Leadership, the test is passed.

The result isn't 2 dice. The result of any Leadership Test are the sum of the dice.

And as was explained before "the result" of 2 dice added together (a mathematical operator) CANNOT BE {1,1} or {6,6} which is what a double 1 or double 6 actually is. Your definition of "result" gives values between 2 and 12 (for a standard test) and never gives "double 1" or "double 6" as a result.

If you are stating as your logic that "the result"of a PotW test is adding the two dice together, the result can never under any circumstances be a double 1 meaning you have just stated you can never suffer PotW.

You may be quoting rules, you are however missing a very important point - your interpretation requires that PotW never happens. Everyone elses interpretation, which states the result is a double 1 includes {1,1,x} and parses perfectly well through BRB rules and, crucially - PotW actually occurs.

So, either restate your argument to avoid summation as a requirement, or you accept that PotW can never happen.

sbeasley wrote:The result isn't 2 dice. The result of any Leadership Test are the sum of the dice.

Correct. The next part is where you confuse yourself, and others.

sbeasley wrote:

BGB pg50 Perils of the Warp wrote:If the result of a Psychic test is either a double 1 or double 6 this indicates that something horrible has happened to the psyker.

If the result, which is the result of the Leadership Test. Which has been defined as the sum of the dice. In conclusion, if the dice rolled are summed and that is "the result", on 3d6 "the result" can never be double 1 or double 6, as that is only part of "the result".

Part of a result is indeed a result. The result of a LD test is the sum of the dice.
A pair of 1s or pair of 6s is a different "result", as you pointed out. One cannot sum them and get a pair of numbers.
One must instead look at the resulting roll, not the result OF the roll.
You roll 3 dice onto the table.
Does this result in a pair of 1s on the table?
It does not say "only a pair" and the power that causes three dice to be rolled does not even imply it.
Saying "Yes, but. . . " is still saying "Yes". And that is all it requires to trigger potw.

sbeasley wrote:Okay let me get this straight, if you think each die is a result, and each combination of dice is a result then on a roll of {1, 1, 1} there would be three separate and distinct instances of double 1 . . .
. . .I repeat "the result" for Leadership Tests has already been defined. You must use that definition for "the result"

For your first point; yes, there are three seperate combinations which make up double one. This makes no difference at all; you need a double one (singular instance) to get a PotW attack, and further results don't matter.

For your second; no, sorry, that is a partial definition. GW is not changing the English language, and you don't get to change it to suit your own purposes. The word "result" covers a multitude of things; as has been REPEATEDLY demonstrated, only ONE of those definitions is effectively applicable here.

apwill4765 wrote:No, the roll is done as a whole (look up how to roll for weapons) It is thrown in one go, not each D6 on its own. For an ass cannon it would be 4D6.

Okay since I'm rolling 4d6 with a result of {4, 4, 4, 4} the result of 16 + weapon Strength, hey I just penetrated that land raider. <-- This is the same argument you are trying to make, I can just use what ever result I find fitting to get the result that I want. Comparing weapons which each die actually means something, to a leadership test just cannot be done. It's apples and oranges.

apwill4765 wrote:Your argument is ludicrous no tagbacks.

Nice.




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BeRzErKeR wrote:The word "result" covers a multitude of things; as has been REPEATEDLY demonstrated, only ONE of those definitions is effectively applicable here.

In game terms I'm using the definition that GW has provided for us.

While RAW technically PotW would never happen based on the definition of how GW has defined how they are using "the result" It's obviously not how it is played, nor how I would play it.

So PotW can now have two results at this point. the result of the sum of the dice, and the result of all the dice individually, not a subset, so PotW can only occur when 2d6 are rolled on double 1 and double 6, and 3d6 on a 12+, because {1,1,x} can not ever be a double 1.

While in shooting individual dice mean something, a Leadership test the 2d6 mean something, they are a set. That is the result. When you roll 3d6 for the Leadership test that set means something. All of it, not a portion.

I also am of the opinion that the wording of RoWar actually are more specific on what you do over the general PotW rules.

sbeasley wrote:

apwill4765 wrote:No, the roll is done as a whole (look up how to roll for weapons) It is thrown in one go, not each D6 on its own. For an ass cannon it would be 4D6.

Okay since I'm rolling 4d6 with a result of {4, 4, 4, 4} the result of 16 + weapon Strength, hey I just penetrated that land raider. <-- This is the same argument you are trying to make, I can just use what ever result I find fitting to get the result that I want. Comparing weapons which each die actually means something, to a leadership test just cannot be done. It's apples and oranges.

apwill4765 wrote:Your argument is ludicrous no tagbacks.

Nice.




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BeRzErKeR wrote:The word "result" covers a multitude of things; as has been REPEATEDLY demonstrated, only ONE of those definitions is effectively applicable here.

In game terms I'm using the definition that GW has provided for us.

While RAW technically PotW would never happen based on the definition of how GW has defined how they are using "the result" It's obviously not how it is played, nor how I would play it.

So PotW can now have two results at this point. the result of the sum of the dice, and the result of all the dice individually, not a subset, so PotW can only occur when 2d6 are rolled on double 1 and double 6, and 3d6 on a 12+, because {1,1,x} can not ever be a double 1.

While in shooting individual dice mean something, a Leadership test the 2d6 mean something, they are a set. That is the result. When you roll 3d6 for the Leadership test that set means something. All of it, not a portion.

I also am of the opinion that the wording of RoWar actually are more specific on what you do over the general PotW rules.

You have just now said that PoTW can have a result of all the dice individual. That is a start. You have acknowledged that GW recognizes the individual dice of a leadership roll, which you weren't doing 1 post ago. My rend roll stands, as you look at the individual die, not the sum. You look at BOTH for leadership.

Now, you say that GW says to look at ALL of the individual dice. Show me one line of rules that even remotely suggests that. It doesn't exist. Nowhere does it say ALL of the dice must be a double 1 or 6. It says a double 1 or 6 must be rolled.


Theeeeeee End.

wow 4 pages, this reminds me of the KFF gives a 5+ obscured result thread.

PotW on a 12+ it really can be that easy.

Ealiom wrote:wow 4 pages, this reminds me of the KFF gives a 5+ obscured result thread.

PotW on a 12+ it really can be that easy.

I believe I said THE END

You can roll a double on 3 dice, so fall foul of PotW. Yes you may argue that if you roll a triple it doesn't happen, But In a triple any there are 3 doubles combinations.

If you don't like that ... tough. Nothing in the Runes of warding rules switches off the original PotW rules. Any time you do a psychic test if you roll a double 1 or 6 you suffer PotW.

apwill4765 wrote:I believe I said THE END

Oh it can't be the end, because I can take a subset of what you think "the end" is and make it something completely different.

TO BE CONTINUED....


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For what it's worth. I do see your point of view. Heck I would love to cheese out my army. I just don't think that the rules support splitting up dice that are meant to be rolled together. You bring up weapons, which each die by itself has meaning, but in leadership tests the dice are one specific unit that are to be looked at as a whole.

2d6 a result of 2 and a double 1 is essentially the same thing.

On 3d6 is becomes muddled. You say you can look for doubles within the result, and I say the rules don't support that action. I've not seen sufficient evidence in your posts to sway me to your point of view.

So we can leave it at that.

Just be thankful if you ever play me, and roll {1,1,x} I'm not going to make you take PotW.

apwill4765 wrote:No, the roll is done as a whole (look up how to roll for weapons) It is thrown in one go, not each D6 on its own. For an ass cannon it would be 4D6.

Each shot is a D6 Roll. There are 4 shots. This does not equate to 4D6. This equates to 4 rolls of a D6 that happen at the exact same time but are completely separate instances that have absolutely nothing to do with each other except they are coming from the same weapon and are going to the same target. Each D6 is an individual roll.

A leadership test is rolled on 2D6. These must be rolled together and are a part of the same test. Both dice affect the roll because they are not for separate tests (in the case of the assault cannon each die is a test to see if a shot hits or wounds/penetrates). A 2D6 test is not the same as firing a rapid fire weapon within 12" because I get 2 shots with the weapon. You roll 2 dice but they are each unique situations. A leadership test does not make the dice unique because they are a set.

Here's the situation:
An assault cannon fires 4 shots.
Each die rolled is checked against the BS table to see if it hits. (Single each out individually).
All dice that score hits are rolled to see if they penetrate\wound. (Single each out individually).
Each die that scored a 6 in it's wound/penetrate applies the rending rule.
Wounds and Saves taken as specified in the rules.

A leadership test is quite different since you are required to roll 2D6. This is a single roll. You CANNOT take it's parts.
A morale test is taken.
2D6 is rolled. (Taken collectively).
The total is compared to the Ld of the unit.

There is no subset of this 2D6 roll. There is simply 2 dice that equate out to 2D6 that is rolled for the leadership test. I cannot say I rolled a 3 and a 6. My leadership is 8. Well I'll just take the D6 that shows a 3 twice and add that together to get a 2D6 roll of 6. I pass my leadership test.

This is the exact logic you use to compare the Assault Cannon to the Psychic test except reversed. A 2D6 roll has the result as the sum of its parts ... not its parts individually.

sbeasley wrote:
Where does RAW say on a roll of a double 1. If it did I would agree. I've quoted the book. It says the result. The result is 1,1,2. The result is not and never will be a double 1.

Last line of the Perils of the Warp paragraph "Note that a psyker who rolls double 1 will still use his power, even if he is wounded or killed as a result." This is a direct reference to earlier in the paragraph "If the result of a Psychic test is either a double 1 or double 6 this indicates that something horrible has happened...."

Logically speaking:
If psyker rolls double 1 (either {1,1} or {1,1,X}
Then psyker will still use his power even if wounded or killed

To be wounded or killed something horrible has to have happened.. which means the result of double 1s on a psychic test is equivalent to a psyker who rolls double 1 no matter the number of dice thrown.

Dracol wrote:

sbeasley wrote:
Where does RAW say on a roll of a double 1. If it did I would agree. I've quoted the book. It says the result. The result is 1,1,2. The result is not and never will be a double 1.

Last line of the Perils of the Warp paragraph "Note that a psyker who rolls double 1 will still use his power, even if he is wounded or killed as a result." This is a direct reference to earlier in the paragraph "If the result of a Psychic test is either a double 1 or double 6 this indicates that something horrible has happened...."

Logically speaking:
If psyker rolls double 1 (either {1,1} or {1,1,X}
Then psyker will still use his power even if wounded or killed

To be wounded or killed something horrible has to have happened.. which means the result of double 1s on a psychic test is equivalent to a psyker who rolls double 1 no matter the number of dice thrown.

Actually it states the result of double 1 ... not double ones within the set of dice thrown. You are adding information and interpreting this to include all possible rolls of Psychic Tests. This is specifying that even if a Perils of the Warp attack happens a Psyker who has rolled a successful leadership test still uses the power.

According to your logic here I can have a psyker with leadership 7. With Runes of Warding I roll a 1, 1 and a 6 on my 3D6 roll. I have a double 1. Therefore I succeed the test because I can use the double ones and it states in the rulebook that on double ones the power succeeds. This is in direct conflict where the total of the 3D6 must be beneath the leadership of my psyker. OH NOES!!!!! The doubel one states it is successful but I suffer perils of the warp. Runes of warding states that I fail. WHAT HAPPENS?

rogueeyes wrote:OH NOES!!!!! The doubel one states it is successful but I suffer perils of the warp. Runes of warding states that I fail. WHAT HAPPENS?

Eh?

You ask what happens when a general rule in the codex is being challenged by a specific rule in a codex?

If so, codex > rulebook (specific > general).

So easy answer: you fail. (Ed: as in, you fail the test, not as you fail @ life or some such lol )
Ed2: Oh any you take a PotW for 2 ones ;P

BUT the rest of the PotW rule remains clear as nothing in the codex says anything else about that.

The double 1s part of POTW does not actually state the power is used successfully.
The base rules state "To use a psychic power successfully the psyker must pass a Psychic test. . ."

1+1+6 on LD 6 or less model is perils and a failed attempt to trigger the effect.

/shrug

SuperioR wrote:

rogueeyes wrote:OH NOES!!!!! The doubel one states it is successful but I suffer perils of the warp. Runes of warding states that I fail. WHAT HAPPENS?

Eh?

You ask what happens when a general rule in the codex is being challenged by a specific rule in a codex?

If so, codex > rulebook (specific > general).

So easy answer: you fail. (Ed: as in, you fail the test, not as you fail @ life or some such lol )

BUT the rest of the PotW rule remains clear as nothing in the codex says anything else about that.

Wait so the Rule book states that the power succeeds on a double one and a perils of the warp occurs on a double one ... then you specify that no the power fails on a double one if it is above the leadership because the codex is specific about what succeeds and what fails. But wait ... the codex specifies when PotW happens as well and does not state that it happens on doubles.

Let me understand this correctly:
The codex is more specific than the rulebook.
You roll on a 3D6 instead of a 2D6 because the codex tells you to.
The rulebook says that you fail a leadership test if you roll above your leadership.
The rulebook states that you succeed if you roll double ones.
The rulebook states that you suffer perils of the warp if you roll a double one.
The codex states that you suffer a perils of the warp if you roll greater than 12.

Wait a second ... the codex and the rulebook give you how to figure out perils of the warp. The Perils of the Warp rule in the rulebook should be negated because the codex is stating WHEN perils of the warp occurs.

You are stating that I can take the double ones as a subset (which means I succeed according to Perils of the Warp but suffer a perils of the warp attack) or I can fail and not suffer a perils of the warp attack.

On double ones under perils of the warp I succeed. so a Psyker with a Ld of 7 can roll a (1,1,6). This would normally fail. Because of Perils of the Warp states on Double 1's the Psychic test succeeds but a PotW attack happens that I succeed. I took the double 1s subset and used it for my advantage. Now I just have to save that wound.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

kirsanth wrote:The double 1s part of POTW does not actually state the power is used successfully.
The base rules state "To use a psychic power successfully the psyker must pass a Psychic test. . ."

1+1+6 on LD 6 or less model is perils and a failed attempt to trigger the effect.

/shrug

But a normal leadership test is taken on 2D6. The codex states Psychic tests are taken on 3D6. This is no longer a normal leadership test. I feel that this would fail because you have to take the entire roll into account ... not a subset. On a subset of double ones I am told by perils of the warp that I can still use the power.

What about this? I punch you in the face (I know, Im violent!) and give you a bloody nose and a black eye. You are now in court pressing charges against me and the lawyer says to you "Was that black eye the result of my client punching you in the face?" and you can only answer yes or no.

According to your logic I get off scott free! Come here so I can punch you in the face!

mattnaik wrote:What about this? I punch you in the face (I know, Im violent!) and give you a bloody nose and a black eye. You are now in court pressing charges against me and the lawyer says to you "Was that black eye the result of my client punching you in the face?" and you can only answer yes or no.

According to your logic I get off scott free! Come here so I can punch you in the face!

Yes and it also caused a bloody nose. Also, you have a horrible Lawyer - I would get a new one.

Rogueeyes, you are committing the strawman fallacy. That is, you are misrepresenting the opposing argument, in order to demolish the false argument you are supposing. Perhaps I and others have not been sufficiently clear. I will rephrase in your terms.

In actual fact, the argument (which you have not yet refuted in any meaningful way), is that you must consider BOTH the sum AND all subsets. If ANY SUBSET (ie "result") of the roll is a double one or a double six, you suffer a PotW attack; REGARDLESS of the success or failure of the psychic power, which is determined by the sum of the dice. Thus, in your previous example of (1,1,6), the psyker BOTH fails AND suffers a PotW attack. The sequence goes like this;

1. Roll the dice.
2. Determine sum. In the example above, that is 8; the hypothetical Ld 7 psyker has failed his Ld. test.
3. Determine PotW. One of the subsets of that roll is (1,1); as a consequence, the psyker suffers a PotW attack.

The objection I foresee to this argument is the repetition of, "But GW said a power succeeds on a roll of double ones!". This is because GW was not thinking about 3d6 situations when they wrote the rulebook. Note that in a Ld. test, a sum of 2 is always a success. On 2d6, doubles ones are, of course, a 2. Thus, the test would normally succeed. It's only when you throw the third die in there that you can roll a double one and yet still fail.

If you wanted to be really strict, this is not exact RAW, because RAW do not cover 3d6 situations. Of course, your proposal is even further off.

rogueeyes wrote:

kirsanth wrote:The double 1s part of POTW does not actually state the power is used successfully.
The base rules state "To use a psychic power successfully the psyker must pass a Psychic test. . ."

1+1+6 on LD 6 or less model is perils and a failed attempt to trigger the effect.

/shrug

But a normal leadership test is taken on 2D6. The codex states Psychic tests are taken on 3D6. This is no longer a normal leadership test. I feel that this would fail because you have to take the entire roll into account ... not a subset. On a subset of double ones I am told by perils of the warp that I can still use the power.

Irrelevant.
The main rules still stand -- the Psychic test must be passed to use the power successfully. The codex says that the psychic test is rolled on 3 dice.
POTW do not state the power is used successfully, just used. The rules for Psychic test state that successful uses require successes.