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It's only S2, and triples the cost of the gant that takes it.

So hold on here: does it test on their strength by Higher S = bad? Or is Higher S = good? With a name like stranglethorn or some such thing, it is easy to imagine a vine that constricts more the harder you fight it. That would make this weapon very potent.

You roll your Str vs their Str as if it were their Toughness, so the lower their Str the better for you. About the only thing I can think of where this is beneficial, or even really matters, is vs Orks.

Orks? What about IG? They have low S models.

But their S is the same as their T.

Gornall wrote:But their S is the same as their T.

Bingo.

If it means anything to you, it also causes pinning. Not sure how good that would be, since if the enemy is that close already, they're probably going to get charged anyway. It would give the gants some cover too, since there would be a squad in front of them now...

Hm. It could rob an enemy of the charge, I suppose. I guess it isn't any less effective against the usual targets than a normal flamer, right? It causes pinning too, which is interesting. Do the enemy get armor saves? Also, do strength boosters like Powerfists have an effect on the weapon's effectiveness?

Oooo, Pinning. That's real good. Why? Because units don't get the Int 10 from you charging thru Difficult Terrain if their Pinned. Poor man's frag grenades?

Aduro wrote:Oooo, Pinning. That's real good. Why? Because units don't get the Int 10 from you charging thru Difficult Terrain if their Pinned. Poor man's frag grenades?

You've got your editions mixed up. In this edition models are reduced to I 1 if they make a difficult terrain test as part of an assault. However, you are correct that they do not suffer this penalty against units which are gone-to-ground or previously locked in combat.

OK, I didn't get a lot of playtesting in this week, but I did test the new list I posted in this thread versus a pretty scary IG list.

Here is my list again (roughly):

-HQ-

Alpha Warriors w/ Boneswords, Deathspitter

-Elites-

3 Zoenthropes

Deathleaper

-Troops-

10 Termagaunts

Tervigon

9 Genestealers w/ Scything Talons

9 Genestealers w/ Scything Talons

9 Genestealers w/ Scything Talons

4 Warriors w/ Deathspitters in Pod

-Heavy Support-

Tyrannofex w/ Capsule Cannon

Carnifex w/ Bioplasma, 2 sets of Scything Talons in Pod

Carnifex w/ Bioplasma, 2 sets of Scything Talons in Pod


I played against our local competitive IG player (I would consider him up there with Shep as far as level of competitiveness, he has placed high at several adepticons, etc.)

We played Spearhead and Kill Points

His list (of the top of my head):

Creed in Command Squad w/ 2 Plasma, Lascannon in Chimera

Harker in a Squad w/ 2 Flamers, 2 Melta

Infantry Squad he blobbed up with multiple heavy and special weapons, Power Weapons, Commissar

Some empty Chimera

Smaller PBS in Chimera

Large Conscript Squad

Vendetta Filled with a Veteran Squad

Outflanking Banewolf

Devildog

Medusa

2 Hydras

Demolisher


So the list I was facing was a pretty good take all comers list with plenty of high strentgh low AP shooting to take me down. I don't have a full battle report to write, so I will simply go through all the units that I fielded and give you my thoughts:


Alpha Warriors w/ Boneswords, Deathspitter riding with the Warriors in a Pod = Excellent unit. One of my favorites in the dex. The Alpha Warrior giving the Warriors a Balistic Skill upgrade basically give you the output of 5 Marine Heavy Bolters the turn you land. THe Alpha Warrior paid of in the squad two as I was ablt to absord a few meltagun hits and keep the squad alive longer. In susequent turns, I had them split up and assault multiple targets. The Alpha Warrior is scary enough to tackle IG units himself.

3 Zoenthropes - Worked Rather well, I deployed them in the front of my force to provide cover to the Tyrannofex, and gave them FNP in the early game. They where able to take two rounds of shooting that kept the rest of my stuff alive long enough, and popped a Chimera. So even though in this game they didn't "make their points back" they still traded Kill Point for Kill Point and gave the rest of my army much needed protection.

Deathleaper - Didn't do much this game, I was a little too aggressive with is deployment. If I would have been a little wiser, I would have set him up far enough away from his lines to keep him alive long enough to precision strike the Carnifex that waited till turn 4 to show up. IG is not an army he is particularly good against, but I still love him against almost everyone else.

10 Termagaunts and Tervigon = Honetly didn't do much besides pass Feel No Pain to a few units and charge conscripts. I am glad I only field one, as I can see multiples be a liablity in Kill Point Games.

9 Genestealers w/ Scything Talons = Loved them. They provide a much needed assault element that my other lists lacked. I of course outflanked with them, and two of the units hit the side I wanted. My opponent used his conscripts to "block" the side he was closer two, so the first squad had no choice but to assault them. They one massacred forward and died to flamers. The second squad came in, assaulted Harkers squad and the conscripts, one the combat, assaulted a Chimera, didn't do anything to it and ran off the table from a tank shock. THe third came in on the opposite side of the table and died promptly the next turn to an outflanking Banewolf.

Tyrannofex w/ Capsule Cannon = Absolutely love this unit. My only mistake was I should have been a little more aggressive with him, because he has a crap ton of anti-infantry shooting on top of his big gun. So if I ran him at least once, I could have been punishing squads I was popping out of transports at that point.

Carnifex w/ Bioplasma, 2 sets of Scything Talons in Pod = MVPs of the game. Period. They are the true tank busters of the Tyranid codex. I was able to uses cover and my pods to keep them alive the turn they drop, and from there I was just running through the tanks in his lines. One Carnifex accounted for The Demolisher, the Hydras, and two Chimeras. The re-rolls and your high str. MC attacks are what really makes him usesful and allows him to fill a roll in the codex that other MCs can't.


I am still shifting points around, but I think I am happy with my list. I have just enough of everything to be able to be competitive.

Carnifex w/ Bioplasma, 2 sets of Scything Talons in Pod

I actually went to check the nid codex today and here's my few quick observations:

The Mawloc is simply insanely good in comparison to the other heavy support choices. I think a lot of people have misunderstood the damage it does when it appears. I first thought that you place the S6 AP2 ordnance template where the Mawloc appears and the models underneath are hit, but that's not the way it works at all. Units that are touched in the slightest take hits equal to the number of models in the unit. This of course means, that one Mawloc that deep strikes between two units of 30 Boyz inflicts 60 S6 hits overall (30 against both unit). Three Mawlocs can destroy nearly anything that forgot their transport home. Yeah, bring on the 'all new jump pack Blood Angels'. Does anyone know if the Mawloc regenerates (if you buy the extra ability) wounds even when burrowed and off the table? Anyway, the Mawlocs solve a lot of problems that I first thought the Nids would have. 10 storm shielded Assault Terminators hit with three Mawloc terror from the deep attacks loses every single model (9.9999), and the very same Mawlocs excel against hordes too.

Secondly, the Carnifex is just as useless as everyone thinks. There's simply no reason for it having only 4 wounds while Tervigons, Mawlocs and everything else has 6 wounds, except for the sake of selling more of everything else and pissing off all old Nid players.

Third, the elites slot is really crowded with nice units. However the synergy between 150 point Hive Guard units busting transports and Mawlocs eating everything inside is there to be used. The Doom is a cool buy for 90 points but it takes a valuable slot.

Termagants are actually quite good in large units since they get furious charge and counter attack etc from their babysitting Tervigons. 30 Termagants with the special abilities and FNP from the Tervigon can deal with quite a large squad of Assault Marines/Grey Hunters/whatever in close combat. The Hive Tyrant didn't impress me at all to be honest, but it looks like the 'template' to start with is 3x Tervigon, 3x Termagants, 6-9x Hive Guard, 3x Mawloc + a HQ choice.

By the way Mahu, what the heck is the 'capsule cannon' that you are talking about? The Tyrannofex entry that I read had the option for a weapon called 'rupture cannon'.

capsule cannon was the German translation for rupture cannon it seams


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Therion wrote:IUnits that are touched in the slightest take hits equal to the number of models in the unit.

O Bloody hell

what, equal to # of models? That is so....bull~~~

I thought it was the number of models that had to displace because of the appearance of the Mawloc, not the total number of models in the unit....?

That would make more sense.

It's just models that are touched by the template. In the german codex it's a complicated wording for, as I've read it, a pretty simple thing: You place the template and every model that is touched by the template is hit.

Greets
Schepp himself

yeah the wording for the Mawlocs template seems to be overly complicated. it is just the # of hits to the unit = the # of models completely or partially hit.

Alpha warrior is really the MVP of the codex imo. Playing against it and a little with it on Vassal it really just is kick ass. Wait for 125 points I get a model w/ Furious Charge , Boneswords, and Regenerate. Yes Please.

Your playtesting is helping me quite a bit Mahu.

My gaming group learns way too fast, and I've lost my last two testing games.

My playstyle has been gravitating me towards slow and hard to kill, and that just doesn't work against IG/witch hunters and probably tau.

I lost to space wolves as well. Genestealers losing a frag grenade option has shown itself to be particularly devastating. If you field genestealers, and you face space wolves, and there is 25% terrain on the table, they are not going to do anything.

I'm not really that interested in running an aggro nid list, but through reading your findings and having tested my own aggro list, it looks like thats the best bet versus IG, and it just follows that its the best bet against full mech armies.

Don't get me wrong, I have fielded hive guard in 4 out of 5 test games and they have exceeded my expectations every single time... the ones that are starting to reveal that they are coming up short are the hive tyrant and the carnifex. In my last game against full mech gunline, the fexes and hive tyrant were doing exactly what I wanted them to do, suppressing long range firepower and keeping transports shaken and stunned. Ultimately I was going to use them as guards for the objectives, be ready to charge any mobile troop transports and take heat off of my hormagaunts. Well, I got too far forward after I charged, and i lost one carnifex and one tyrant + one guard to special weapon and exorcist shooting. I was still in position to win 2-1, but then my opponent politely reminded me that my hormagaunts were out of synapse. Two failed IB tests later and I lost the game. So the hive tyrant can't really be used aggressively in some cases, and that would be fine if he was 160 points out the door, but at 240 with adrenal venom cannon and preferred enemy, with another 60 for a tyrant guard, he needs to be free to charge or he just isn't going to be worth it. He was MUCH better when facing an army i can outshoot, like Som's ironclad/termie list. But I am switching to tyranid primes for my next wave of games i think.

So, we can kill transports now... thats good, but what I need to have on the table in addition to that transport kill is a unit that can quickly kill celestians/veterans/command squads/tactical squads/fire dragons the second they show up on table. or to make a list that is completely immune to special weapons, like running masses of little guys. My trygon, carnifex, and hive tyrant were taken down too fast by meltas, plasma and heavy support.

Any thoughts there?

Mahu wrote:

Carnifex w/ Bioplasma, 2 sets of Scything Talons in Pod = MVPs of the game. Period. They are the true tank busters of the Tyranid codex. I was able to uses cover and my pods to keep them alive the turn they drop, and from there I was just running through the tanks in his lines. One Carnifex accounted for The Demolisher, the Hydras, and two Chimeras. The re-rolls and your high str. MC attacks are what really makes him usesful and allows him to fill a roll in the codex that other MCs can't.

That is encouraging. I'd be curious to see if it does as well against a Tau or Eldar mech list which are more mobile.

I am really kind of curious as to why people are taking Carnifexes over Trigon Alphas. I mean really 265 for a unit that has Psychic Defense , Regenerate, Synapse etc..

I would pretty much take 2 Trigon Alphas over , 3 Carnifexes in pods any day of the week really.

As a slightly OT comment, I would like to say that I really enjoyed reading the Tyranid codex this past weekend. While I'm not a good enough meta-gamer to tell how powerful the codex will be in game-play, I found it really interesting. I would love to find a way to play with all of the units just from sheer interesting factor.

And, after reading this new codex, there's one rumor that I really hope pans out as being true. Months ago, I had read that Cruddace was doing the Dark Eldar codex. If that's actually the case, I'm kind of excited. If the 'Nid codex is any measure, a Cruddace written DE codex would be much more interesting that the current one.

Well I was reading the English version of the codex, not the German one. However, as I was reading it the GW staff plus a few others were discussing possible lists in the usual frenzied nerd manner so I might've read it wrong. You know, someone tells you how it works, then you check it yourself and agree that it's the way it works but it's only because someone told it to you before you actually read it. I'll re-check tomorrow. I wouldn't be surprised if the English version was different to the German one though, considering all the re-prints of the English version and other differences that the books obviously have.

EDIT:

Now that I'm thinking of it, I very clearly remember the Mawloc rule saying: Every unit hit by the template suffers wounds equal to the number of models in the unit. I'm pretty certain of it, but like I said I'll check back in this thread in about 14 hours and correct my mistake if there is one. If I read it wrong it must be in the end of the sentence, like, 'equal to the number of models in the unit <that were displaced>' or something and I just didn't read it to the end.

Hollismason wrote:I am really kind of curious as to why people are taking Carnifexes over Trigon Alphas. I mean really 265 for a unit that has Psychic Defense , Regenerate, Synapse etc..

I would pretty much take 2 Trigon Alphas over , 3 Carnifexes in pods any day of the week really.

I kinda agree with this sentiment.

Saldiven wrote:

Hollismason wrote:I am really kind of curious as to why people are taking Carnifexes over Trigon Alphas. I mean really 265 for a unit that has Psychic Defense , Regenerate, Synapse etc..

I would pretty much take 2 Trigon Alphas over , 3 Carnifexes in pods any day of the week really.

I kinda agree with this sentiment.

For a lot of us, we are still laden with 4th Ed Carnifexes that suddenly got nerfed by a new 50 dollar kit. I already have 130 dollars worth of carnifexes, so I am not real inclined to spend another 100 on that organization slot. I'd rather buy more zoeys or some of the new hive guard, or more gaunts for the swarm.

FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
For a lot of us, we are still laden with 4th Ed Carnifexes that suddenly got nerfed by a new 50 dollar kit. I already have 130 dollars worth of carnifexes, so I am not real inclined to spend another 100 on that organization slot. I'd rather buy more zoeys or some of the new hive guard, or more gaunts for the swarm.

This. I still have some IG units to buy before I bust out my nids again. I'd buy venomthropes before Trigons. I'd also have to playtest a bit before I decide what flavor of Trigon I'd want.

I only ever purchased two of the plastic Fexes. One was slowly biggerized over the years and has already been made into a Tyranofex in anticipation of the new book, and the other was repostured into a Hive Tyrant when first purchased, again years ago. All I've got for Carnifexes at the moment are two of the original metal ones with current large plastic Scything Talons, and an Old One Eye in pieces around my living room somewhere.

I think everyone needs to re-adjust what they do with Carnifexs. Obviously they are not the same power houses they used to be, but certainly they are not useless.

Lol, the original metal ones were certainly.... unique. I'd love to see some pictures of those, Aduro!

I have some more IG stuff I want too, mainly valks or hellhound variants, but the main point against buying a bunch more 'nids is that right now the prices are being driven up for the release of the new codex. I'd rather wait until people get tired of playing with them, kind of like you are seeing now with the IG. It'll be a lot cheaper 2-3 months down the road when they start releasing more new codexes.