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^ Good points, all.

The fan made AdMech Codex i think is a pretty good point of reference for what they could well be like. Obviously being written by someone totally different, but I think it would introduce some IMO much needed uniqueness to the game on the Imperiums side

The literature often describes large and diverse admech armies fighting independantly with their own unique forces and an agenda quite distinct from the other branches of the imperium. Read Soul Hunter or Mechanicum for some examples. They'd be very comfortable fighting alongside the Imperial Guard, but just as comfortable fighting alone, especially when pursuing a goal particular to the admech such as defending a forge world or securing an artifact from the dark age of technology.

I wouldn't like to see GW take this on because they're already struggling to support existing forces, but I've no doubt that they could given the richness of the fluff. Given that FW already produce admech models as support for the IG, it would be a logical project for them to take on.

I only mentioned fan 'dex to counter the argument that Mechanicus armies don't have a wide range of unitis available.

Fan dex are a good reference point to see a list of the units available to the army.

Also the mechanicus would have a wider range of miniatures than Necrons.

Fandexes != the Mechanicus having a wide range of units available. Not when you make up half the crap in it.

And Mechanicus are, as stated, getting their own treatment from Forge World. They're slated to get an army list in the next IA book.

Kanluwen wrote:Fandexes != the Mechanicus having a wide range of units available. Not when you make up half the crap in it.

And Mechanicus are, as stated, getting their own treatment from Forge World. They're slated to get an army list in the next IA book.

not quite.
depends on the codex you read. the one I saw had only units from GW fluff.

Current fluff or outdated Epic: Space Marine fluff?

There's a difference in that idea right there alone.
Large quantities of things have been let go simply because they're too wacky and don't fit the current background.

There's a reason Squats were killed off, Slann are a dying race that are never to be seen again, etc etc.

They don't fit the background anymore.

40k is no longer just "Fantasy....in spaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace!".

We're arguing about mechanicus, if they don't fit into the 40k universe then the Imperium will be sent back to the stone age pretty fast.

They don't fit into the 40k tabletop universe. They're not a force that works well in terms of 40k as we're seeing it now on the tabletop.

Since you're wanting to cite fluff, by the way, the Mechanicus doesn't commit anything more than a few squads,even then more often than not they serve exclusively as bodyguard to high-ranking Mechanicus officials on the field to supplement the Servitor bodyguard they have to begin with, of Skittarii to battlefields except in extreme circumstances.

Kanluwen wrote:They don't fit into the 40k tabletop universe. They're not a force that works well in terms of 40k as we're seeing it now on the tabletop.

Since you're wanting to cite fluff, by the way, the Mechanicus doesn't commit anything more than a few squads,even then more often than not they serve exclusively as bodyguard to high-ranking Mechanicus officials on the field to supplement the Servitor bodyguard they have to begin with, of Skittarii to battlefields except in extreme circumstances.

And yet they have entire fleets and armies dedicated to finding ancient tech and preserving or destroying it.

Okay, a few unique units would be all that is needed from GW to make an official Ad-mech list there are plenty of other counts as options in the current IG codex.

Kanluwen wrote:They don't fit into the 40k tabletop universe. They're not a force that works well in terms of 40k as we're seeing it now on the tabletop.

Since you're wanting to cite fluff, by the way, the Mechanicus doesn't commit anything more than a few squads,even then more often than not they serve exclusively as bodyguard to high-ranking Mechanicus officials on the field to supplement the Servitor bodyguard they have to begin with, of Skittarii to battlefields except in extreme circumstances.

Not quite true, read Helsreach, and you'll find that skittarii march alongside titans to protect the lower accesses to the interior of the titans.
Also as was mentioned already mechanicus have a fighting force to defend their forges and the also have exploration teams.

AM is a viable option to create a tabletop army. There's diversity, numbers and a fluff stream to explore.
The only reasons GW might have not to create such an army is because they already have too many Imperial armies or being too busy updating current books.

Kanluwen wrote:Current fluff or outdated Epic: Space Marine fluff?

There's a difference in that idea right there alone.
Large quantities of things have been let go simply because they're too wacky and don't fit the current background.

There's a reason Squats were killed off, Slann are a dying race that are never to be seen again, etc etc.

They don't fit the background anymore.

Sorry, but as you mentioned background so many times in this post and not once tabletop, I assumed you were actually talking about the 40k universe background.

Do the Mechanicus have forces that they send out across the galaxy?

Sure. They're called Explorator Fleets. But their primary goals aren't to prosecute wars. They're sent out to explore. They're sent out to search for STCs. That's their primary goal, and they're equipped to prosecute campaigns if they believe there's a STC.

The Mechanicus keep the majority of their forces on their Forge Worlds. The only forces that regularly are seen on the battlefields are Titans.

Kanluwen wrote:Do the Mechanicus have forces that they send out across the galaxy?

Sure. They're called Explorator Fleets. But their primary goals aren't to prosecute wars. They're sent out to explore. They're sent out to search for STCs. That's their primary goal, and they're equipped to prosecute campaigns if they believe there's a STC.

The Mechanicus keep the majority of their forces on their Forge Worlds. The only forces that regularly are seen on the battlefields are Titans.

AD mech forces WILL prosecute wars against Xenos races tech heretics, recalitrant forge worlds or worlds and systems producing needed goods with their own forces.

If GW saw Ad-Mech or another race as a viable revenue stream then you can guarantee that fluff would come out supporting these races or factions at the very least fluff woudl eb ignored

Tale a look at Grey Knights another MEQ that fluff indicted was rarer than a Sanguinius and Bloodthirster love child, they were limited in number even in the days of epic armies with a limited role. And yet here we are with whole armies of the shiny metal buggers.

Fluff indicated nothing of the sort about Grey Knights. Them having limited numbers has nothing to do with the fact that they're actually used in specific roles. Grey Knights are called in when things get bad in terms of a daemonic infestation. Then they show up, with force appropriate to the infestation. If it's a relatively "minor" incursion you'll see a few squads of Power Armored Grey Knights, alongside of the Inquisitional forces already in play.

When things get to the size of Vraks, Armageddon when Angron opened up a rift, the invasion of Cadia, etc?

That's when you see the Grey Knights mobilized in full scale.

As to them being on the tabletop right now...
Yes. They don't really belong. They should be an Elite choice for a Guard army or a Marine army that can only be taken against a Daemon army.

But since army choices don't work that way...they added in the "Daemonhunters" book, which was meant to represent the Ordo Malleus(y'know...the people who do nothing but battle Daemonic infestations) going to war. If you'll remember, they even added in things like Greater Daemons, Cultists, etc that could be taken with your opponent's forces since you're fielding Daemonhunters.

Also, Adeptus Mechanicus DO NOT prosecute wars by themselves. They have NEVER done that, in any form of fluff I have ever seen published. They take to the field alongside of the other forces of the Imperium.

the Mechanicus most definitly makes war by itself. TITAN frakking LEGIONS(titans and ground forces of Skittarii(centurions are elite Skittarii), Cataphractii, battle servitors....) does this ring any bells? They are always going after lost tech by themselves(they want it that way)

I wrote a Mechanicus Dex.

here it is if you want idea as to what is possable.

Everything in it is strait out of the BL books Titanicus, Grey Knights omnibus, some things from Codexs, and a few things that would be undeniably suitable for Ad Mech units.

i didn't have everything that was mentioned either as it they were either too big or would be similer to what i had.


also: Grey Knights are actually the most numorous chapter behind the BTs(4,000ish GKs total) they are just spread out across the galaxy with a concentration at the EoT. at the level of our Table top board game they have more then enough justification to have a force of up to 50 GKs. GKs are always fighting all sorts of enemies(naturally it would have something to do with Daemons, but that doesn't have to happen on the Table top itself. Relics, curropted icons.....)

Okay, so your ENTIRE basis for an Adeptus Mechanicus force is a specialized branch that makes up something like 10% of their overall forces and only includes what can(and WAS during the last Guard codex actually) be represented by Guard forces?

Gee. That's a great reason to have a brand new Codex!
So when do I get Codex: Kasrkin Legion?

10%?????? Where are you getting that?

it's more like 90% of their actual forces. Tech Guard are a PDF of sorts for Forge Worlds.

Skittarii are far from able to be represented by Guard. Tech Guard are the equivilant of Stormtroopers in terms of equipment.

Nothing in there, except Techpriests and Tech Guard, could be easily represented by Codex:IG.

The Explorator Fleets are a MINORITY. I have seen NOTHING that makes me believe otherwise. I have seen NOTHING that isn't fan created that suggests Explorator Fleets are so common that they're anywhere near a population or activity level that would justify them being on the tabletop.

The Tech Guard, by the by, ARE the Skittarii.
Skittarii take many different forms, from gun toting servitors in heavily armored bodies to augmented humans wearing heavily modified Carapace Armor and wielding Boltguns.

The Adeptus Mechanicus has no bloody business being their own faction on the tabletop. Nor do the Inquisitorial Ordos. Both are so inherently tied into the Imperial Guard that they should be unit options for there.

And by the by, I'm talking about last edition's Guard Codex. They even published a list of doctrines that would work well for a Skittarii/Tech Guard force. They were:
Sharpshooters(to represent augmentations done to them affecting their accuracy/uplinks between themselves and their guns)
Carapace Armor(obvious reason is obvious)
Bionic Upgrades(Do I really need to say this? Added in an Invulnerable Save)
Techpriest Enginseers(Again...do I need to say why?)
Ogryn(used to represent Cataphractii)

Tech Guard are simply Guard with bionic upgrades or weird weaponry. They are in no uncertain terms equivalent to Stormtroopers.

in the GKs Omnibus the Tech Guard are men wielding Hellguns and in carapace armour with some Lobotomisation to make them less prone to morale problems.

in Titanicus Skittarii are genetically altered, mutated warriors. Built in weapons systems, Genetherapy and Hormones make them extreamely agressive and cause massive muscle growth on an almost obscene level.

they are both of the same Rank within the Machine cult. Skittarii have gone the way of the warrior and will advance to become Centurions, Pratorians.... those who don't undergo the modification in that way will go on to become Tech priests, Magos, Arch magos, prehaps Titan pilots....OR if they die in the process, or have "issues" they will become Servitors.

they are technically the same Rank if you will, but can be used to mean 2 very different beings.

When a man is referred to as a Tech Guard he is one who has only just begun his path down service to the Machin God. they do act as bodyguards for some dignitaries as many normal humans will be unerved by the presense of the brutish Skittarii.

Skittarii refers to the fighting forces proper.

By adding AM to C:IG you'd just be complicating what's simple.

You'd be given way too many options to IG players which would more likely result in a cookycutter list which would neither represent IG nor AM.

That's the reason why DH and WH have their own codex, so you don't have lots of hybrid lists which represent neither DH, WH, IG nor SM.

Also, by launching a brand new army instead of adding new models for an existing dex' GW would end up with higher profit.

You wouldn't be doing anything other than adding it into Codex: Imperial Guard.

Again:
Adeptus Mechanicus, Inquisition, and Ecclesiarchy are NOT FORCES THAT SHOULD EVER BE SEEN ON THE TABLE BY THEMSELVES.
They are not self-sufficient, no matter what you people seem to get from fanwank.

Why is there no option for none of them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:Again:
Adeptus Mechanicus... are NOT FORCES THAT SHOULD EVER BE SEEN ON THE TABLE BY THEMSELVES.
They are not self-sufficient, no matter what you people seem to get from fanwank.

Where in the fluff does it say so?
Space marines are also very rare yet they have multiple Codexes...

Space Marines are rare--but they're also a combat force that is constantly on the frontlines.

Your comparison is a terrible one, simply because one is a combat force that is dedicated to nothing outside of intervening in conflicts.

The Adeptus Mechanicus do not.

I don't think they should have a codex but I still believe that the cult of mars is pretty big and has a strong armed force (for defensive purpose). I believe they can fight on their own without the need of imperial guard. After all, titans are part of their forces and they produce tanks.

They shouldn't be an army with a Codex because they are rarely out there attacking enemies of the imperium. Explorator fleets are a rare sight and the Adeptus Mechanicus will trust recovery of ancient artifacts to the Adeptus Astartes or the Imperial Guard. Explorator Fleets being required when studies have to be made on foreign planets.

Remember that most Forge Worlds are within imperial space behind most danger zones.

poipo32 wrote:Remember that most Forge Worlds are within imperial space behind most danger zones.

Most of the galaxy is supposed to be imperial space, and most battles depicted in the fluff occur within it. Forge worlds are also priority targets for many aggressors, particularly the traitor legions. These battles would certainly see a large and independent mechanicum army take to the field. This is a perfectly sensible scenario to bring to the tabletop, whatever the misgivings of a vocal minority who loudly protest to the contrary.

poipo32 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Again:
Adeptus Mechanicus... are NOT FORCES THAT SHOULD EVER BE SEEN ON THE TABLE BY THEMSELVES.
They are not self-sufficient, no matter what you people seem to get from fanwank.

Where in the fluff does it say so?
Space marines are also very rare yet they have multiple Codexes...

Kanluwen just doesn't like the Codices Sororitas, WH, and DH plus the novels Mechanicum, Grey Knights, Faith&Fire etc. and prefers to ignore them
Everyone else knows that according to official bacground Ecclesiarchy and AdMech have big independend armies and that Inquisitors can take control of most Imperial armies.

Again, Ad mech COULD be represented quite legally by using the current IG codex as counts as. Other races can be represented by other racially similar 'dexes.

If GW decided that any of the races mentioned in this threads poll deserved a unique army then you can bet that fluff would be expanded upon and created to support their inclusion into the pantheon of money making lines.

Mr. Burning wrote:Again, Ad mech COULD be represented quite legally by using the current IG codex as counts as.

Only by liberally ignoring the fluff descriptions of AdMech forces.

Demoniac wrote:That's pretty much exactly the kind of army I'd like to field, and (more specifically for the WH/Ordo Hereticus), the range of/types of acolytes available for the inquisitors to take. I'd like to see them with some real interesting wargear/weapons too, the only thing I felt about both the Witch Hunters and Daemonhunters was that there weren't nearly as many 'unique' weapons (DH slightly less so).

This sounds good but not for 40K. As a revival of necromunda though, lots of potential. (I'm imagining a kind of hybrid of necrmunda, dark heresey and inquisitor)

I really want to see the Exodites, mostly because I find them interesting more than anything. Although I doubt they'll ever come to fruition in the tabletop.

Kroothawk wrote:

poipo32 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Again:
Adeptus Mechanicus... are NOT FORCES THAT SHOULD EVER BE SEEN ON THE TABLE BY THEMSELVES.
They are not self-sufficient, no matter what you people seem to get from fanwank.

Where in the fluff does it say so?
Space marines are also very rare yet they have multiple Codexes...

Kanluwen just doesn't like the Codices Sororitas, WH, and DH plus the novels Mechanicum, Grey Knights, Faith&Fire etc. and prefers to ignore them
Everyone else knows that according to official background Ecclesiarchy and AdMech have big independent armies and that Inquisitors can take control of most Imperial armies.

And those same people ignore the fact that the Ecclesiarchy and Adeptus Mechanicus don't go to war by themselves, simply because it's a stupid idea to even believe in the least bit "Oh well, th Adeptus Mechanicus on Tuesdays like to start up a war, and the Ecclesiarchy on Sundays after Mass like to go wail on some Tau". The Ecclesiarchy can't even manage to hold onto their own Shrineworlds using those "big independent armies", so I'd quit harping on that note while I was ahead if I was you.

As for the Inquisition: I want them gone, simply because they were shoe-horned in. Have said it multiple times that an Inquisitor HQ option that alters Stormtroopers to Troops, makes Valkyries dedicated transport options for them, etc would be a far better idea than devoting resources to making codexes where you're creating a force designed to completely shut down one specific army, if they happen to come across it.


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Temujin wrote:

Mr. Burning wrote:Again, Ad mech COULD be represented quite legally by using the current IG codex as counts as.

Only by liberally ignoring the fluff descriptions of AdMech forces.

No, mostly by ignoring the fanwank "fluff" that crops up about them.

But that's no big loss since it's not y'know, official fluff.