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Kanluwen wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:

poipo32 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Again:
Adeptus Mechanicus... are NOT FORCES THAT SHOULD EVER BE SEEN ON THE TABLE BY THEMSELVES.
They are not self-sufficient, no matter what you people seem to get from fanwank.

Where in the fluff does it say so?
Space marines are also very rare yet they have multiple Codexes...

Kanluwen just doesn't like the Codices Sororitas, WH, and DH plus the novels Mechanicum, Grey Knights, Faith&Fire etc. and prefers to ignore them
Everyone else knows that according to official background Ecclesiarchy and AdMech have big independent armies and that Inquisitors can take control of most Imperial armies.

And those same people ignore the fact that the Ecclesiarchy and Adeptus Mechanicus don't go to war by themselves, simply because it's a stupid idea to even believe in the least bit "Oh well, th Adeptus Mechanicus on Tuesdays like to start up a war, and the Ecclesiarchy on Sundays after Mass like to go wail on some Tau". The Ecclesiarchy can't even manage to hold onto their own Shrineworlds using those "big independent armies", so I'd quit harping on that note while I was ahead if I was you.

As for the Inquisition: I want them gone, simply because they were shoe-horned in. Have said it multiple times that an Inquisitor HQ option that alters Stormtroopers to Troops, makes Valkyries dedicated transport options for them, etc would be a far better idea than devoting resources to making codexes where you're creating a force designed to completely shut down one specific army, if they happen to come across it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Temujin wrote:

Mr. Burning wrote:Again, Ad mech COULD be represented quite legally by using the current IG codex as counts as.

Only by liberally ignoring the fluff descriptions of AdMech forces.

No, mostly by ignoring the fanwank "fluff" that crops up about them.

But that's no big loss since it's not y'know, official fluff.

Well, sadly for you GW is working on new Inquisition codices.

You presented you opinion, but that doesn't make any of our opinions any less valid than yours

Perhaps we should all ask GW to forget about all the codices, and launch just one big imperial codex where SM would be commanders of the IG and =][= that ought to make like 1/100 players happy and the rest, well...really off

Marines aren't allowed to command Guard forces, so that's an asinine comment to begin with.

Inquisition, quite frankly, deals with one specific thing:
Inquisitors and their specific forces. Almost every Inquisitor of a rank to where they start really leading combat operations have their own personal militias or permanently seconded Guard forces.

Both of which are easily represented by y'know...the Guard codex.

The Inquisition, if it's going to be done well in terms for gameplay, need to be made slightly generic. Which is going to screw the fluff either way. Hence why I'd rather just see them relegated to background, an HQ choice in the Guard 'dex, and special rules for narrative campaigns.

Kanluwen wrote:Marines aren't allowed to command Guard forces, so that's an asinine comment to begin with.

I didn't say they are, I was just being sarcastic

Kanluwen wrote:Both of which are easily represented by y'know...the Guard codex.

Guess what's even better to represent the Inquisition.... you got it... DH and WH codices

Kanluwen wrote:The Inquisition, if it's going to be done well in terms for gameplay, need to be made slightly generic. Which is going to screw the fluff either way. Hence why I'd rather just see them relegated to background, an HQ choice in the Guard 'dex, and special rules for narrative campaigns.

Sooo, all those players whit full Inquisitorial armies should just throw them in the bin and buy loads of meatshields, I mean guardsmen.
Somehow I don't see a lot of happy faces if that was the case. (weird but I just pictured Melissa storming in the thread with flamer in hand)

Plus on this last quotation your making too many assumptions. You have no clue of what GW has in store for either army apart from rumours which are as accurate as a gretchin' shooting.
Wait for the codex then write your critics on it.
And changing fluff wouldn't be a problem for GW, they have done countless times before.

The Daemonhunters and Witchhunter codices represent one specific branch of the Inquisition.

Those specific branches are designed to deal with one specific threat. That's not a good way to do game design for a tabletop game.

40k should not be a rock, paper, scissors affair. Daemonhunters/Witchhunters/Alienhunters are, again, trained and tailored to counter one specific threat.

As for your "loads of meatshields" comment?
You did read my comment of "Stormtroopers as Troops choices with an Inquisitor as your HQ choice", riiiight?

And you have no clue what GW has in store for the Inquisition either, so I'd stop while I was ahead if I were you.

1.) WH and DH have fantastic models. FW is planning to do a nice AdMech army. Inquisitor retinues are perhaps the most colourful and divers HQ units in the game, so inspiring that a complete RPG is based on them alone (Dark Heresy). It is okay that some people don't like them. Personally I don't care about Space Marines. But I am not trying to prevent other people to have fun with these armies.

2.) AdMech defends Forge Worlds, Ecclesiarchy defends Shrine Worlds. Both fractions have a huge independent army to use for their own purposes which can be quite different from Imperial purposes. It is easier to find reasons for them fighting a tabletop battle than for two loyal Space Marine chapters to fight each other (the latter a common sight in the game).

3.) DH and WH represent just one specific branch of the Inquisition? Well, DH and WH represent TWO branches and 2/3 of the Inquisition forces. Either you don't know the basic facts or deliberately try to give a false impression to the less informed readers. Of course, Inquisition forces can have specific tasks, but that doesn't mean that they would not defend themselves against Tyranids, Orks or Necrons. And the usual SM army can always be viewed as a Heretic. So again, your argument doesn't make sense on close scrutiny.

BTW, current rumours point to a Grey Knight Codex quite soon, an Ecclesiarchy Codex much later and an Inquisition supplement or WD article.

Okay, I think you might be misunderstanding me.
When I say "one specific branch of the Inquisition", they each represent ONE SPECIFIC BRANCH OF THE INQUISITION.

You know, the Ordo Malleus and the Ordo Hereticus?
Yeah.

It's also worth noting that the majority of the "usual SM army" cannot be viewed as a Heretic, simply because they're far more pious than your average Inquisitor.

As for the "two loyal Space Marine Chapters fighting each other" point...that's something that irks me too. But that has to do more with the playerbase, not the game itself or background.

And I hope to Hell that the Ecclesiarchy is gutted like a fish and Grey Knights don't get their own codex. Those both are such stupid ideas that I cannot even find good words to describe it other than "Megadumb".

It would IMO be unconscionable to produce another Imperial Codex before Necrons and DE had been updated.

well, it is pretty well established that GW has about as much consience as a Dark Eldar.

Grey Knights may technically be a Impierial codex, but they have a very distinct feel.

Grey Knights at least won't be another Space Marine codex(Hopeing and praying )



Eldar are the only race besides humans that have multiple codexs. and there is still only 1 Guard codex and a million SM codexs. an Ad Mech codex would be a very different army compared to these 2 and would add some varity to the Impierial pot of blandness.

and the Non-impierial codexs are, for the most part, good codexs.

the DE codex isn't bad(people win with it all the time), it just needs an update.

Necrons just got nerfed by the vehicle damage table change.

ork codex is great.

T'au are the only truly "Bad" codex as they have a rotten troops choice that is mandatory to take. they do win, but players have to learn to get around the Handicap. again it can be solved with an update.

Nid codex is good. it wasn't as strong as the 2 marine codexs that came out with it, but they are a good solid codex. they suffored from some rules wording problems, but so did the 2 Marine codexs that came at the same time.




Ad Mech would have a different feel then other Impierial Codexs(it wouldn't be like SMs or Guard) it would have almost no units that are related to the other Impierial codexs. a Completely new miniature range to be sure.

but for sure they should update all old Dex's first

Kanluwen wrote:As for the "two loyal Space Marine Chapters fighting each other" point...that's something that irks me too. But that has to do more with the playerbase, not the game itself or background.

Agreed, that's why more army diversity would be a good thing, something to stir players away from marines.

Kanluwen wrote:
And I hope to Hell that the Ecclesiarchy is gutted like a fish and Grey Knights don't get their own codex. Those both are such stupid ideas that I cannot even find good words to describe it other than "Megadumb".

Nice to see we're stirring away from the "fanwank" and into "Megadumb"* in this conversation.

Seriously, you're basing all your arguments around the fact that you don't want Inquisition to have their own codex, when they already have one and GW has confirmed that they're working on the next DH codex. If you're so mad with it simple don't play with Inquisitorial armies.

And if you think C: WH and C: DH are stupid ideas fear knowing what you think of the old codex Catachan or all of the Marine codices currently in production.

*Definition of Megadumb = Ork in Mega armour.

Krauser wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
And I hope to Hell that the Ecclesiarchy is gutted like a fish and Grey Knights don't get their own codex. Those both are such stupid ideas that I cannot even find good words to describe it other than "Megadumb".

Nice to see we're stirring away from the "fanwank" and into "Megadumb"* in this conversation.

Seriously, you're basing all your arguments around the fact that you don't want Inquisition to have their own codex, when they already have one and GW has confirmed that they're working on the next DH codex. If you're so mad with it simple don't play with Inquisitorial armies.

I agree, Kanluwen's argument seems to be going into the realms of "I don't like it so it's dumb. You don't like that? You're dumb too."

There is nothing wrong with the Inquisition getting their own codex, and to be honest I don't see what exactly you're getting at with this vein of thought, Kanluwen. Care to explain? After all, the Inquisition is no more a stupid idea than say, vikings in space (more correctly known as the Space Wolves) and I don't see you complaining about that.

This has got to be the worst series of Kanluwen posts I have seen yet, and that's saying something.

But on topic, Admech needs a codex!

Krauser wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:As for the "two loyal Space Marine Chapters fighting each other" point...that's something that irks me too. But that has to do more with the playerbase, not the game itself or background.

Agreed, that's why more army diversity would be a good thing, something to stir players away from marines.

And where will you be by introducing MORE Imperial factions into the mix to solve the "stirring players away from Marines" idea?

Right back where you started.
And no, that's not a suggestion to see more random pulled out of the ass Xenos codices. They need to finish what they're doing, make everything on an even-ish playing field(There's going to be a natural problem with this part since you could end up with match-ups like a Gaunt horde facing a Mech Guard force, etc).
Putting it simply:
Every possible permutation needs to be considered. We should not be seeing powerbuilds/power 'dexes.

Krauser wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
And I hope to Hell that the Ecclesiarchy is gutted like a fish and Grey Knights don't get their own codex. Those both are such stupid ideas that I cannot even find good words to describe it other than "Megadumb".

Nice to see we're stirring away from the "fanwank" and into "Megadumb"* in this conversation.

Seriously, you're basing all your arguments around the fact that you don't want Inquisition to have their own codex, when they already have one and GW has confirmed that they're working on the next DH codex. If you're so mad with it simple don't play with Inquisitorial armies.

Okay. Since this apparently is too friggin' complicated for you:
I do not want to see the Inquisition with their own codices simply because Inquisitorial forces are not something that are either common, nor deployed to the frontlines.
If we had a skirmish/Kill-Team styled objective game? Sure. I'd be happy seeing an Inquisitorial force for that. I'd also be okay with seeing Inquisitorial forces(Grey Knight Terminator Squads led by a Brother-Captain, Sisters of Battle accompanying an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor, a Deathwatch Kill-Team) as options for Codex: Space Marine(the vanilla one. Yes. Simply because you will not see the Dark Angels really letting Inquisitorial forces in with them, nor Space Wolves or Blood Angels) and Codex:Imperial Guard. Give them a specific target objective that if unfulfilled, counts against you.

Because again:
Pure Inquisitorial forces DO NOT EXIST AS A PURE FRONTLINE FORCE. They field teams for specific objectives. Those teams are fielded alongside standard Imperial forces. You will never see them on the frontline solo.

The Inquisition, at most, has Inquisitorial Stormtroopers in addition to whatever Chamber Militant the Inquisitor can convince to join him. Radicals need not apply for that kind of aid, so they'll most likely have whatever "standard" Imperial forces(Marine Chapters, Guard regiments, etc) they can coerce into joining them.

And if you think C: WH and C: DH are stupid ideas fear knowing what you think of the old codex Catachan or all of the Marine codices currently in production.

Codex: Catachan made sense. It was to distinguish the fact that Catachan forces fought very differently than a standard Guard force would.
Codex: Space Wolves, again, makes sense. It distinguishes a radical departure from the standard Marine forces.
Codex: Blood Angels was an example of "fanwank", as the author was friggin' terrible and just basically seemed to try to deviate them more and more from the standard Marine setup. I shudder to think of how they're going to make Dark Angels different.

But that's the problem with the Dark Angels and Blood Angels both. Dark Angels, without the Deathwing or Ravenwing would simply be Codex: Green Marines.
Blood Angels never even had that. They've just always had the Death Company and the random Black Rage to set them apart from the standard Codex Marine forces .

Kanluwen wrote:

Krauser wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:As for the "two loyal Space Marine Chapters fighting each other" point...that's something that irks me too. But that has to do more with the playerbase, not the game itself or background.

Agreed, that's why more army diversity would be a good thing, something to stir players away from marines.

And where will you be by introducing MORE Imperial factions into the mix to solve the "stirring players away from Marines" idea?

Right back where you started.
And no, that's not a suggestion to see more random pulled out of the ass Xenos codices. They need to finish what they're doing, make everything on an even-ish playing field(There's going to be a natural problem with this part since you could end up with match-ups like a Gaunt horde facing a Mech Guard force, etc).
Putting it simply:
Every possible permutation needs to be considered. We should not be seeing powerbuilds/power 'dexes.

The fact that we're discussing AM codex is exclusively to keep this thread on topic. If you have ideas for xenos or Heretic codices present them and they shall be discussed just as the AM is being discussed right now.

For example I'd like to see the chaos legion separated, a codex per god + one undivided codex (much like space marines) or for the sake of simplicity 1 codex for the chaos gods (legions and deamons and one undivided codex, but GW decided to split CSM and Deamons into 2 different codices. Tough luck, no point in complaining about that its done.

Kanluwen wrote:

Krauser wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
And I hope to Hell that the Ecclesiarchy is gutted like a fish and Grey Knights don't get their own codex. Those both are such stupid ideas that I cannot even find good words to describe it other than "Megadumb".

Nice to see we're stirring away from the "fanwank" and into "Megadumb"* in this conversation.

Seriously, you're basing all your arguments around the fact that you don't want Inquisition to have their own codex, when they already have one and GW has confirmed that they're working on the next DH codex. If you're so mad with it simple don't play with Inquisitorial armies.

Okay. Since this apparently is too friggin' complicated for you:
I do not want to see the Inquisition with their own codices simply because Inquisitorial forces are not something that are either common, nor deployed to the frontlines.
If we had a skirmish/Kill-Team styled objective game? Sure. I'd be happy seeing an Inquisitorial force for that. I'd also be okay with seeing Inquisitorial forces(Grey Knight Terminator Squads led by a Brother-Captain, Sisters of Battle accompanying an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor, a Deathwatch Kill-Team) as options for Codex: Space Marine(the vanilla one. Yes. Simply because you will not see the Dark Angels really letting Inquisitorial forces in with them, nor Space Wolves or Blood Angels) and Codex:Imperial Guard. Give them a specific target objective that if unfulfilled, counts against you.

Because again:
Pure Inquisitorial forces DO NOT EXIST AS A PURE FRONTLINE FORCE. They field teams for specific objectives. Those teams are fielded alongside standard Imperial forces. You will never see them on the frontline solo.

The Inquisition, at most, has Inquisitorial Stormtroopers in addition to whatever Chamber Militant the Inquisitor can convince to join him. Radicals need not apply for that kind of aid, so they'll most likely have whatever "standard" Imperial forces(Marine Chapters, Guard regiments, etc) they can coerce into joining them.

Never though about quoting myself, but your reply can be answered with my previous statement.

Krauser wrote:
Seriously, you're basing all your arguments around the fact that you don't want Inquisition to have their own codex, when they already have one and GW has confirmed that they're working on the next DH codex. If you're so mad with it simple don't play with Inquisitorial armies.

Inquisitorial armies are front line fighters, just not in the same numbers as IG or astartes.
The fact that they mainly operate within Imperial borders and can commandeer other Imperial forces does not change the fact they have their own armed force and that they are more than able to fight their own wars when needed to.

Do they often count with the support of other Imperial forces? yes, of course. but so does IG. I lost track of the amount of fluff there is of marines fighting alongside IG.
All this to say that your arguments aren't valid as fact but simply your opinion, which I respect as an opinion, nothing more nothing less.

Imperial Guard and Marines are forces that act on their own. Outside of the Guard's reliance on the Imperial Navy for traveling to and from warzones and the occasional orbital bombardment/fighter cover, they do not rely upon anyone else once the actual fighting is going on.
And yes, I'm discounting the Munitorium, which keeps them supplied and fighting. Simply because those kinds of things are figured in when the Guard leave for a combat zone.

They do not need to demand forces be placed under their command nor do they need to rely on other forces being in theater to accomplish their objectives.

Now, as for the Marines and Guard fighting alongside each other?
Of course they do. The Guard are equipped to fight lengthy campaigns and stalemate the enemy into a deadlock.
Marines, mind you, pick where they want to deploy. They don't often, it seems, decide upon "Hey, let's go to this warzone where we'll be doing a prolonged, decade long war with no possible assistance" when they can opt instead utilize the skills that Marines are heavily invested in(surgical strikes breaking the back of an enemy force, precision Drop Pod assaults, Terminator deployment, etc. And for all of those to be employed it's going to be a vital world, since the Marines are expending a lot of resources in one combat operation) to break a stalemated campaign.

And no, the Inquisition is not able to fight their own wars by themselves. They have, off the top of my head, Inquisitorial Stormtroopers as the only thing that is directly under their command. There are some oddities that crop up from time to time, like the Elysian Detachment 99(which started out as being seconded, but then became an Inquisitor's personal strike force as the numbers were whittled down to being just a Company leftover from an entire Regiment).

Everything else has to be requisitioned from the Chambers Militant, which can turn them down, or requested from the Ministratum to get Guard forces, or requested from the Astartes.

Your argumentation stands and falls with the arbitrary and false assumption that all armies on the table have to be assigned as frontline armies. And that armies with a more specific function can never be seen on a frontline.

Tell that Hive fleet Behemoth that they are not allowed to land on planets with Grey Knights or Sororitas or AdMech on it. Tell that the crashed Ork Space Hulk. Tell that the awakening Necron tomb. Or if Sororitas are the only Imperial forces in a subsector, tell them they are not allowed to intercept the CSM force because it is not in their contract.

BTW, the intention of this thread is not to reduce the option for gamers by squating armies existing since 2nd edition, it is about creating new options.

And new options are completely unnecessary until everything is redone and brought up to speed. And even then new options are unnecessary when all you're doing is jamming something that hasn't ever belonged on the tabletop in.

Around and around and around we go.

Honestly you're the only one going around in circles.
According to your point of view we'd have never left the initial stages of the game and we'd be stuck with 4 or 5 armies (if that).

GW is all about the money, and if money tells them to release a new army they will and there's nothing you can do to stop it.

You've been going around in circles saying the same thing over and over again, your was clear 10 posts ago and still is. Now I think its about time to drop that and let the discussion flow into something more constructive or let the topic die if no one has nothing new to add.

Imo I think that either the Adeptus Mechanicus needs a codex or Ordo Xenos. I would preferably like the Ordo Xenos to get a codex for one reason only, Eisenhorne. For anyone who has read the Eisenhorne series they know how awsome this guy is. Eisenhorne is the example of an Imperial Inquisitor and in the Ordo Xenos codex they could easily make him a character. I also like the Ordo Xenos because I really like the Inquisition I think there a cool idea to go along with the Imperiums whole I hate Demons, Heretics, and Aliens motto. Plus they have the other two Ordos why not the Xenos. So of all the armies I think the Xenos are the one they need to make but the Adeptus Mechanicus would be a good one too.

I think they should make a Codex: Inquisition.

it would have an Inquisitor Lord as an HQ.

the Lord would HAVE to purchase(for free or for a small fee) an Ordo Badge.

3 ordos. Ordo Hereticus, Ordo Malleus, and Ordo Xeno.

each badge would allow the player to use different troops. all would have acess to ISTs

Hereticus would give acess to SoBs. awsome psyker powers and Flame and Melta weapons. Assassins too

Malleus would give acess to Weaponry that can negate Invuln saves, good against Deamons.... Allow the player to purchase Grey Knights as elites(from Codex: Grey Knights)

Xeno would give acess to exotic Xeno weaponry. Preferred enemy to all non-impierial codexs. Deathwatch as troops.



you could do a mix of any 2 ordos(By taking 2 different lords) Mix and match things you like while still being able to be specialised.


Maybe also a SoB and Deathwatch HQ so you could do an entire DW or SoB army.

Nice idea, although, or so rumours say, GW has already said that an Inquisition codex is not on their plans =/

I voted for the Exodites. Only I wouldn't want them to be simply just Wood Elves in space, I think there is a real opportunity to create a new feel and character to the existing eldar aesthetics.

Umm... Sisters are front line fighters.

Ok, The Sisterhood is the Army of the Church.
The Ecclesiarchy is on almost every planet in the Imperium's control.
Sisters guard almost every church.
Sisters fight in, often on their own, all Wars of Faith.
Sisters guard the pilgrimage routes
Sisters hunt down lost relics and the such

And arguing that the =][= should not be there.
Hello, less then one marine per world in the imperium?
You would never see one, let alone a force of them with the same regularity you see the Inquisition in any capacity.

Kettu wrote:Umm... Sisters are front line fighters.

Ok, The Sisterhood is the Army of the Church.
The Ecclesiarchy is on almost every planet in the Imperium's control.
Sisters guard almost every church.
Sisters fight in, often on their own, all Wars of Faith.
Sisters guard the pilgrimage routes
Sisters hunt down lost relics and the such

Not by the current big rule book. The Rule book currently alludes to a cap of maybe 10,000-15,000 sisters. Page 120, states 3 Chapters of several thousand and many lesser sister hoods of about a hundred sisters sounds like SM numbers as opposed to the IG's level of presence within the Imperium.

Considering Sisters get a total of two paragraphs in that entire book and of which it flies in the face of previous well established fluff by a massive degree I, like most people, do not take this as canon or anywhere close.

What Sisters got in the book isn't canon, nor is it even fluff, it is a blurb written by someone who never saw the original work.

So, because you don't like it--it's not canon?

Yeah. That's not how it works. Fluff gets changed, as you lot are so fast to point out. Sisters are changing.

Don't like it?

Too bad.

Ok after thirteen years of the exact same plot with some extra bits tacked on from time to time we are suddenly given two paragraphs that ignore a fair bit of pre-established canon and... that's it.

No two page spread, no new pictures, just two paragraphs.

This would be like publishing somewhere a small blurb about there only being several chapters of Marines left in the galaxy. Would you accept this as cannon, even though your current codex says otherwise?

Face it, until a new codex comes out the Sisters canon from Codex Witchhunters still stands. 5th ed or not.

No, it really doesn't.

The Sisters canon from Codex: Witchhunters was universally whined about by Sisters players.

Then GW changed it when they created the rulebook, which is a newer source of background ifno.

And you keep whining?

Seems like you won't be happy, period.

I voted Demiurg, as Dwarves are awesome and I got into the game after the Squats were long gone.

Kroothawk wrote:

BTW, the intention of this thread is not to reduce the option for gamers by squating armies existing since 2nd edition, it is about creating new options.

Correct. Some people seem to be getting actually angry about the idea of new stuff coming out, which really I cannot understand. If so, its time to take a break from dakka ok.

Instead of Ordo Xenos lets have a straight Xenos Codex!

Includuing old favourites such as:
The Jokearo
Slann/Zoats
Ambulls
Psygores
The Hrud
And many more from passing fluff references.

Exodites could go here too.

Might as well give the Ordos something different to wipe from existence.