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H.B.M.C. wrote:

Dave47 wrote:... and it's not tournament legal...

The legality of a list at a tournament is the prerogative of the tournament organiser, not something inherent to the list.

Good point. I can name at least one tournament in my area that's apparently going to allow Apoc units. But as a general observation, few tournaments are going to approve this list. It's generally going to be used in Apoc / friendly games where it's flaws are less dramatic.

AlexHolker wrote:
They could have at least put in a "Chimera Motor Pool" as a Fast Attack option, if they wanted to make it difficult to mechanise the DKoK.

You're missing the point. Krieg don't use Chimera becuase they don't hold hold enough. "Go in a Gorgon or go home" is their motto when it comes to moving mass infantry.

Same thing with missile launchers and other what not. They're a specialized force so don't expect to see everything from the Guard codex.

I'm glad they updated the force list. I'll be fun to use.

Perhaps slightly off topic, but does anyone think that FW would be open to the possibility of people on forums doing extensive testing of existing lists to try and balance them better?

Obviously GW studio wouldn't, but with FW sending out experimental rules, it strikes me that an organised group could iron out all the problems with a list like the Death Korps.

Thoughts?

Email them, you never know.

Pyriel- wrote:Hmm, maybe they simply accepted the detailed bitz service to be taken up by non GW entities (like bitz on ebay, bitzbarn etc etc) meaning the loss was acceptable or even not a loss at all?

Except the bitz service set up by places like Horde'O'Bits, Bits&Kits, etc. isn't anywhere near the same service GW used to offer. And I think most of the problems with GW's bits service would go away if they went back to offering sprues. Don't have to offer every metal bit in the range, but plastic sprues would help quite a bit (not to mention individual models for Specialist Games).

Pyriel- wrote:Sounds logical but I dont see how GW would have access to the sales figures from all 3:rd party bitz companies out there and certainly not from the more experimental bitz companies.

You don't need detailed sales figures to work out the trends in the bits market. Just go to any bits site and look at what's sold out. It is invariably the same thing every time - Marine Crusader Helmets, Razorback turrets, Scout legs, Daemonette Command bits, etc. - a simple look through what's available currently (standard shoulder pads), what's on sale all the time (all the random do-dads from the Dark Angel sprue), and what's constantly out of stock (the aforementioned parts, + more) would give them an idea on what sells and what doesn't.

Then there's also the relative costs. I remember a time when the Warstore was selling the Chaos Space Marine Possessed Winged Backpack for A$12.50.

Yeah, that was a bit much...

Still, valid points about GW's bits service, or lack thereof now.

It would be even better if it was in a thread about... that!

I guess there isn't much else to talk about in terms of the Forge World newsletter.

I am glad FW is doing sneak peeks though!

Moopy wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:
They could have at least put in a "Chimera Motor Pool" as a Fast Attack option, if they wanted to make it difficult to mechanise the DKoK.

You're missing the point. Krieg don't use Chimera becuase they don't hold hold enough. "Go in a Gorgon or go home" is their motto when it comes to moving mass infantry.

Same thing with missile launchers and other what not. They're a specialized force so don't expect to see everything from the Guard codex.

I'm glad they updated the force list. I'll be fun to use.

another point sublists aren't supposed to get everything their parent list has and then more.. they're supposed to get somethings instead of others. you can play an infantry heavy siege list with both the IG and FW Krieg rules but with slightly different flavors (including FNP for a 50 man IG power blob!!!). i figured this sense of entitlement was only common in marine players (bwahhh! why don't my space wolfs have scout speeders or ironclads?) but i guess it extends to IG players.

Pyriel- wrote:

Attempting to paint a person with legitimate criticisms about your work as some sort of irrational critic who will always hate your products is a great way to not get their money .

Attempting to put words never said in mouth of others as deflection based on lack of argument is in deed the epitome of internet debate.

But I give you points for a nice attempt though.

Hah! What is there to argue about? I don't like your products as they are inferior to Forgeworld? Is that an argument, because I'm pretty sure that is an opinion.

Pyriel- wrote:...but then I´ll guess you will be the last one to complain, obviously.

I guess you're right. This quote totally isn't about you saying that I hate your products and will be the last one to complain about them, even when everyone else is won over to your side.

You know, unless you totally didn't mean any of that, and just somehow are completely terrible at getting your point across and you are just the poor misunderstood victim. Which of course you could claim at any time, to cover up your being a passive aggressive ass to your potential customers.

Except the bitz service set up by places like Horde'O'Bits, Bits&Kits, etc. isn't anywhere near the same service GW used to offer. And I think most of the problems with GW's bits service would go away if they went back to offering sprues. Don't have to offer every metal bit in the range, but plastic sprues would help quite a bit (not to mention individual models for Specialist Games).

Yeah, you are right. Sprues cost a nice buck and can be easily offered.

You don't need detailed sales figures to work out the trends in the bits market. Just go to any bits site and look at what's sold out. It is invariably the same thing every time - Marine Crusader Helmets, Razorback turrets, Scout legs, Daemonette Command bits, etc. - a simple look through what's available currently (standard shoulder pads), what's on sale all the time (all the random do-dads from the Dark Angel sprue), and what's constantly out of stock (the aforementioned parts, + more) would give them an idea on what sells and what doesn't.

True, given a wee bit time this could be fairly deducted as you say.

I guess you're right. This quote totally isn't about you saying that I hate your products and will be the last one to complain about them, even when everyone else is won over to your side.

You know, unless you totally didn't mean any of that, and just somehow are completely terrible at getting your point across and you are just the poor misunderstood victim. Which of course you could claim at any time, to cover up your being a passive aggressive ass to your potential customers.

After putting words in my mouth I never said and then deflecting the issue might I remind you to please point out to me exactly where I claim you are:
1: Irrational!
2: hateful.

If failing to produce said quotes you know what to do.

You know, unless you are somehow terrible at making a point without over dramatizing things like totally blowing things up out of their proportions, which of course you could claim at any time to cover your overly aggressive response in claiming I somehow add qualities to your person of hateful and irrational nature.

To get back to the word "obviously" that so hurt your feelings, no, I made it as a half friendly barb, a humorous evil eye, thats all but what is the point of me telling you, you have "obviously" made up your mind that I hate you, you hate me, I think you are irrational and god knows what else you "feel" that I think, oh yeah, I am also completely terrible at expressing myself (well you are completely terrible at over reacting so what).
Now if we are through with the pissing contest...

Nurglitch wrote:Then there's also the relative costs. I remember a time when the Warstore was selling the Chaos Space Marine Possessed Winged Backpack for A$12.50.

The problem with that is two-fold:

1. TheWarStore.com inherited the prices from Battle Wagon Bitz, who were notorious for over-costing the 'in demand' bits to absurd levels.
2. They also inherited the problem BWB had with not paying attention to market forces (ie. when Assault Cannons stopped being the 'it' gun for Terminators, and Cyclones replaced them, the cost of Assault Cannons stayed high, yet Cyclones stayed low). The Combat Company (an Australian-based bits site) has this problem as well. Perceived value vs actual demand.

H.B.M.C:
Do you think the whole lack of bitz sales from GW is intentional in the way that it actually increases GW sales. Think about it, on one sprue there might be one bit that everyone wants and buys.
Now if they released that bit alone then people would buy it and nothing else, this way people need to buy the whole sprue to get that one bit.

I'm still curious about their pricing decision of £16. It seems to be inconsistent (GW Consistent?) with the World Eaters and Death Guard - enough to ask other questions:

Does it look to anyone else that the heads seem to be static to the torsos? The top left and bottom right product shots seem to reinforce this. Then again I've never had my hands on the other two - are those heads static too?

Oldgrue wrote:I'm still curious about their pricing decision of £16. It seems to be inconsistent (GW Consistent?) with the World Eaters and Death Guard - enough to ask other questions:

Does it look to anyone else that the heads seem to be static to the torsos? The top left and bottom right product shots seem to reinforce this. Then again I've never had my hands on the other two - are those heads static too?

Different kits have different amounts of bits. Let's compare the Red Scorpions conversion kit to the Raven Guard one again, just to keep a semblance of a decent comparison(as the World Eaters and Death Guard kits you mentioned are 20 GBP and have a ton of spare bits leftover from the "10 model upgrade" if you're aware of what you're doing when building them).

So, the Red Scorpions conversion kit upgrades 9 models with new torsos, new helmets, and new shoulderpads--in addition to the weapon options you get for Veteran Sergeant Haas. That's 16 GBP.

Then we've got their most recent offering, in the form of the Raven Guard squad upgrade--which upgrades 5 models(including a Sergeant) to be wearing Mk. IV armor by swapping in new torsos, new helmets, new shoulderpads--and the key difference here between the Red Scorpion and Raven Guard kit--and new backpacks. Additionally, it also comes with the parts to allow you to field the squad as Sternguard with custom Storm Bolters that have Raven Guard iconography.

Price? Same as the Red Scorpion kit, just with the space halved due to providing the backpacks that match the armor.

's okay, I was looking at the wrong kit when I was asking questions anyway.

Kanluwen wrote:...Death Guard kits you mentioned are 20 GBP and have a ton of spare bits leftover from the "10 model upgrade" if you're aware of what you're doing when building them).

10 Torsos and 20 Shoulder Pads. Hardly a 'ton' of spare bits there.

Shoulderpads aren't molded onto the torsos, and can be mixed+matched just like any other kit.

I think I will stick to my MK1 Vet Devestators w/ lasgun-shotgun combi-weapons from 1987 2 blister packs of 5 for a wooping $4.99 each all lead.

Pyriel- wrote:You know, unless you are somehow terrible at making a point without over dramatizing things like totally blowing things up out of their proportions, which of course you could claim at any time to cover your overly aggressive response in claiming I somehow add qualities to your person of hateful and irrational nature.

To get back to the word "obviously" that so hurt your feelings, no, I made it as a half friendly barb, a humorous evil eye, thats all but what is the point of me telling you, you have "obviously" made up your mind that I hate you, you hate me, I think you are irrational and god knows what else you "feel" that I think, oh yeah, I am also completely terrible at expressing myself (well you are completely terrible at over reacting so what).
Now if we are through with the pissing contest...

So you admit that you were making a jab at me, and then reacted in the way you did to me calling you out for acting that way towards potential customers?
You realize that you just confirmed everything that I was talking about this entire time?
My feelings are not hurt, but please continue to imply false implications as much as you want. It does not help you at all. If you have any more random flailing, just keep it up. It's amusing.

And just in case you honestly don't know,

Attempting to put words never said in mouth of others as deflection based on lack of argument is in deed the epitome of internet debate.

But I give you points for a nice attempt though.

is not how you respond to someone if you want to then later to claim that they are blowing things way out of proportion. You also don't passive aggressively imply things about people if you want them to not be hostile in return.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:...Death Guard kits you mentioned are 20 GBP and have a ton of spare bits leftover from the "10 model upgrade" if you're aware of what you're doing when building them).

10 Torsos and 20 Shoulder Pads. Hardly a 'ton' of spare bits there.

It's 10 torsos 20 pads and 10 heads. For just over $30. Which makes FW, again, cheaper than some bits services such as chapterhouse, and still higher quality.

Beautiful looking marine helmet there but I wouldn't call it a mk V. It's a mk VII that has been retro-fitted to look like a mk II or III, the Great Crusade era helmets. That wide top vent first appeared on the mk VII helmets. Supposedly the mk VIII (errant armour) suits are distinguished by those high armoured collars yet it seems that everyone wants their crusade and heresy era marines to have them on the earlier marks too.

The mk V helmets are distinguished by the longer nose piece which eventually became the classic "beakie" helmet of the mk VI (corvus) type. There's well established fluff on marine armour, it would be nice if they stuck to it.

So you admit that you were making a jab at me, and then reacted in the way you did to me calling you out for acting that way towards potential customers?
You realize that you just confirmed everything that I was talking about this entire time?
My feelings are not hurt, but please continue to imply false implications as much as you want. It does not help you at all. If you have any more random flailing, just keep it up. It's amusing.

Wow, just wow. You just dont get it do you.

Your delusional thoughts of what exactly may take place inside my own head are not my problem nor my concern.
Besides, man up and produce those quotes I asked you of or stop outright lying about me calling you hateful or irrational but then again, you cant.
I frankly dont care if you believe in your own BS and lies, stop pestering me with your holier-then-thou attitude kid.

Consider yourself reported, I dont take to kind to liars.

My vet Havocs in Mk1 armor...

I really don't even know what's happening here any more.

SO off topic...

And, that pic is blurry - but, it doesn't look like 'Thunder Armor' to me!

Pyriel- wrote:Wow, just wow. You just dont get it do you.

Your delusional thoughts of what exactly may take place inside my own head are not my problem nor my concern.
Besides, man up and produce those quotes I asked you of or stop outright lying about me calling you hateful or irrational but then again, you cant.
I frankly dont care if you believe in your own BS and lies, stop pestering me with your holier-then-thou attitude kid.

Consider yourself reported, I dont take to kind to liars.

You post a jab at me, don't act so shocked when you get a hostile response, or get called out on it. I've quoted your jab plenty of times, but you still don't seem to get it. Stop calling me a liar, read your own hostile posts and get a clue. Consider yourself counter-reported.

Oh, and we should probably stop posting OT in this thread.

@Pyriel- : There is no reason to get into a flame war with ph34r just because he likes FW better then chaptrerhouse. Your reaction to his opinion just pushed me away from ever wanting to deal with chapterhouse.

To be fair, Nick is Chapterhouse, not Pyriel. Pyriel is just one freelance sculptor for them among others. And Pyriel only speaks for himself, not for Chapterhouse. Don't ask me on what occasion I learned that though

OK.

I've already posted this once - STAY ON TOPIC.

AND, STOP the personal attacks.

The two of you have gone at it enough here - NO MORE.

So how often does FW do newsletters? When do you think we will see another preview of their new marine stuff?

H.B.M.C. wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:It'd be easier if GW simply shrank the Cadians and Catachans back to 2E size.

2nd Ed metal Catachans were the same size if not bigger than Marines. The DKoK models are to scale with Marines, and it's one of the reasons why 'True Scale' Marines is such a misnomer. Marines are not out of scale - it's the human models that are too big.

True-scaling marines isn't so much about scaling them in comparison with other models, it's about making their physical dimensions look more realistic. As they are now, space marines have very big heads and arms/hands compared to the rest of their bodies.

I'm hoping the next time they release space marine plastic kits they do away with the "heroic" scale and just make them realistic. The True Scale marines I've seen on the P&M section look fantastic.