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xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:Here is why you can not melta a rhino and flame the tacticals inside.

The POTMS entry in the C:SM dex states that the extra weapon you fire is subject to normal rules for shooting.

Now in the BGB, the table on pg.15, which is a summary of shooting, says that when a unit fires:

1. Check LOS & pick a target, or in the LR's case, targets.

Now the squad in the rhino was NOT a target you could shoot at when you declared your targets. Therefore, you can not flame the tacticals inside after you used the MM to wreck it.

You can melt and flame the rhino. Roll the melta 1st, when the guys get out they'll get hit by the template. Really though this whole you cant melt and flame the same target discussion is a distraction. Maybe you cant melt the target witht he Land Raider, but the Land Raider isnt operating in a vacuum. Just get someone else to melt the rhino.
AF

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/314948.page#1894248

Phobos Pattern in action. Glorious, glorious action.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:Here is why you can not melta a rhino and flame the tacticals inside.

The POTMS entry in the C:SM dex states that the extra weapon you fire is subject to normal rules for shooting.

Now in the BGB, the table on pg.15, which is a summary of shooting, says that when a unit fires:

1. Check LOS & pick a target, or in the LR's case, targets.

Now the squad in the rhino was NOT a target you could shoot at when you declared your targets. Therefore, you can not flame the tacticals inside after you used the MM to wreck it.

You can melt and flame the rhino. Roll the melta 1st, when the guys get out they'll get hit by the template. Really though this whole you cant melt and flame the same target discussion is a distraction. Maybe you cant melt the target witht he Land Raider, but the Land Raider isnt operating in a vacuum. Just get someone else to melt the rhino.
AF

You resolve a unit's shooting all at once. By that logic a half a long fang pack can shoot at a rhino and the rest will shoot at what pops out.

And it is also not a distraction. It was one of your points as to why the Redeemer is clearly the best.

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:Here is why you can not melta a rhino and flame the tacticals inside.

The POTMS entry in the C:SM dex states that the extra weapon you fire is subject to normal rules for shooting.

Now in the BGB, the table on pg.15, which is a summary of shooting, says that when a unit fires:

1. Check LOS & pick a target, or in the LR's case, targets.

Now the squad in the rhino was NOT a target you could shoot at when you declared your targets. Therefore, you can not flame the tacticals inside after you used the MM to wreck it.

You can melt and flame the rhino. Roll the melta 1st, when the guys get out they'll get hit by the template. Really though this whole you cant melt and flame the same target discussion is a distraction. Maybe you cant melt the target witht he Land Raider, but the Land Raider isnt operating in a vacuum. Just get someone else to melt the rhino.
AF

You resolve a unit's shooting all at once. By that logic a half a long fang pack can shoot at a rhino and the rest will shoot at what pops out.

And it is also not a distraction. It was one of your points as to why the Redeemer is clearly the best.

not exactly..... my point about why the redeemer is the best wasnt that it can shoot infantry and the vehicle at the same time.... it was that it has the most devastating gun, the flame storm cannon. My point about why the Phobos is *not* the best land raider was that its anti tank gun isnt very good, you can get the anti tank work in your army done better with other units. That may or may not be the Redeemer. Anyway if the weapons arent compatible against the same target just flame A and melt B, or flame A in one direction and flame B in the other, or just move 6-12 inches and shoot one gun. Whatever. Bottom line here is that the redeemer is the better tank than the Phobos. AF

well at my 2k list i use 3 redeemers and 2 crusaders

Devastator wrote:well at my 2k list i use 3 redeemers and 2 crusaders

Holy. Crap.

Whats in the other 750 pts of your army?

assaut marines,th/ss termies w/priest and liberian

AbaddonFidelis wrote:My point about why the Phobos is *not* the best land raider was that its anti tank gun isnt very good

No one asserted that the Phobos was the "best" lr variant. Some people asserted, including myself, that some armies will work better with the Phobos over the Redeemer. Again your assertion that the TL lascannon isn't very good is simply wrong. I can't beleive you are obtuse enough to make this statement repeatedly.

You are removing all semblance of context and making black and white statements. Entirely unhelpful. You should stop posting.

Devastator:

I take it you play the Blood Angels?

Dracos.
You're obviously a moron. Welcome to my ignore list.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Dracos.
You're obviously a moron. Welcome to my ignore list.
AF

Lol, yeah everyone disagrees with you and I'm the moron. Good, ignore me. That way when I refute your stupid posts you won't bother with your constant re-asserting of the same debunked position.

Crusader for me.

13 blood claws, a Wolf Priest and a WG in Termie armour - straight into combat.

Mine's got a Multi-melta to go tank hunting afterwards, and generally distract my opponent.

Wolfun wrote:Crusader for me.

13 blood claws, a Wolf Priest and a WG in Termie armour - straight into combat.

Mine's got a Multi-melta to go tank hunting afterwards, and generally distract my opponent.

I've never actually seen that unit on the table. How does it perform in CC versus other dedicated assault units, such as assault terminators, thunderwolves, banshees, harlies,warlocks, MCs/other nid units and nobs?

Er, everyone STOP with the personal attacks, OK?

IF there is a problem, please report it using the MOD ALERT button.

Thanks!

I have a 13 Blood Claw, Wolf Priest and Wolf Guard with mark of the wulfen coming out of a LRC... they really chew thru just about anything. I have not had them lose vs anything other than Fiends of Slaanesh and Genestealers... ... but they tend to get shot to death afterwards...

Dracos wrote:

Wolfun wrote:Crusader for me.

13 blood claws, a Wolf Priest and a WG in Termie armour - straight into combat.

Mine's got a Multi-melta to go tank hunting afterwards, and generally distract my opponent.

I've never actually seen that unit on the table. How does it perform in CC versus other dedicated assault units, such as assault terminators, thunderwolves, banshees, harlies,warlocks, MCs/other nid units and nobs?

Not a clue. I wiped out an entire brood of Hormogaunts as well as Genestealers with a Broodlord. Also have taken out a Brood of three Carnifex's in one charge with some lucky wounds and unlucky saves.

To Devastator- Did I miss your troops in that 2k list? assaut marines,th/ss termies w/priest and liberian with 3 redeemers and 2 crusaders...Is this a BT thing?

@mrwhoop - I wish! We don't even get redeemers...

mrwhoop wrote:To Devastator- Did I miss your troops in that 2k list? assaut marines,th/ss termies w/priest and liberian with 3 redeemers and 2 crusaders...Is this a BT thing?

That would be a Blood Angels thing. Their assault marines are troops.

BTs cannot take Librarians, just fyi.

On Topic: I would always choose the Crusader if it's carrying assaulty dudes. The amount of mid-range firepower that comes out of that thing has saved me several games. I've never really tried the redeemer, as it's not available to Templars, so I can't really comment. However, on paper I feel that it's flamers are a bit short ranged for my taste.

Stravo wrote:For a SM army with an assault Terminator force if you only had room point wise to throw in a single and raider as their dedicated transport which variant would you choose? The standard las cannon variant? The Redeemer? or Crusader? I've seen some people really in love with the redeemer for its flame cannons which accentuate the assault for the Termies but I am inclined towards the shooty goodness of the las cannons but that's coming from someone with little to no real experience what do you find in the game makes the best variant to choose pound for pound?

That's a huge run on sentence... (sorry for being a grammar nazi )

In answer to your question- If they're assaulty termies, the standard LR is the least usefull, especially if you want to add an IC. Redeemers are nice- drop off the termies on one target, go flame another. If you want lots and lots of termies, take a crusader (especially if small arms fire is not prevalent in your army). If you want to sit back and blow things apart as they come at you, then charge out from within, take the standard LR.

So... each is good in its own way. Don't start the whole "is a crusadder or redeemer [i]better?"
It really depends on your playing style, what you want the landraider to do.

kenshin620 wrote:

Riddick40k wrote:

Inigo Montoya wrote:I will say 4. None.
1 land raider is just too easy to open up.

They really depend on your play style. I run an 'ard boyz Vulkan list that uses 4 raiders, a redeemer, a phobos, and 2 crusaders. All are outstanding at what they do, but each has a very different role for me. YMMV, and I encourage you to really analyze exactly what holes you need filled. Again, I strongly advise against a single land raider!

Just wondering how you can have 4 Land Raiders if your only allowed to run 3 Heavy Support Choices?

Dedicated transports

heck BA can ONLY get them that way!

It's a Vulkan List so that means hes playing a Normal Marines List
And Normal Marines can only take LR as Heavy Support Choices

Riddick40k wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:

Riddick40k wrote:

Inigo Montoya wrote:I will say 4. None.
1 land raider is just too easy to open up.

They really depend on your play style. I run an 'ard boyz Vulkan list that uses 4 raiders, a redeemer, a phobos, and 2 crusaders. All are outstanding at what they do, but each has a very different role for me. YMMV, and I encourage you to really analyze exactly what holes you need filled. Again, I strongly advise against a single land raider!

Just wondering how you can have 4 Land Raiders if your only allowed to run 3 Heavy Support Choices?

Dedicated transports

heck BA can ONLY get them that way!

It's a Vulkan List so that means hes playing a Normal Marines List
And Normal Marines can only take LR as Heavy Support Choices

I think you'll find that to be incorrect upon review of the codex.

Chaos land raider's the best
hurhurhur

but seriously, as everyone's been saying both crusader and redeemer are good
Personally, redeemer's terrify me, s6 ap3 flamers = dead chaos space marines.

If you can't tell already, I play CSM haha

Monster Rain wrote:

Riddick40k wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:

Riddick40k wrote:

Inigo Montoya wrote:I will say 4. None.
1 land raider is just too easy to open up.

They really depend on your play style. I run an 'ard boyz Vulkan list that uses 4 raiders, a redeemer, a phobos, and 2 crusaders. All are outstanding at what they do, but each has a very different role for me. YMMV, and I encourage you to really analyze exactly what holes you need filled. Again, I strongly advise against a single land raider!

Just wondering how you can have 4 Land Raiders if your only allowed to run 3 Heavy Support Choices?

Dedicated transports

heck BA can ONLY get them that way!

It's a Vulkan List so that means hes playing a Normal Marines List
And Normal Marines can only take LR as Heavy Support Choices

I think you'll find that to be incorrect upon review of the codex.

They have a Transport Capacity but nowhere in the Codex does it say you are allowed to take LR as Dedicated Transports, they are under the Heavy Support choice

Except in the Elites section under the two Terminator Entries.

Probably a Crusader, im not perfectly sure about the stats of it, but i remember a friend telling me that they bring good firing support.

Unreal Toast wrote:Probably a Crusader, im not perfectly sure about the stats of it, but i remember a friend telling me that they bring good firing support.

Give them a Multi-melta to help take out tanks, and they're alright.

THe problem with the standard Land Raider for Assault Terminator is that they do not have Frag Launchers to it then limits your ability to assault enemies in cover. Ok if you have TH/SS Termies they are going to strike last anyway so this isn't important but for the few people who still use Lightning Claws then it totally takes away their advantage.

Personnally I would go Redeemer - Flamesorm Cannons are awesome
Crusader - Carrying capacity is fantastic and the hurricane bolters can be lethal to T3 troops.
Godhammer - Will actually be a threat once the Assault Terminators have got out but not ideal for driving towards the eneermy as fast as possible as this limits its considerable firepower capabilities.

Riddick40k wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:

Riddick40k wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:

Riddick40k wrote:

Inigo Montoya wrote:I will say 4. None.
1 land raider is just too easy to open up.

They really depend on your play style. I run an 'ard boyz Vulkan list that uses 4 raiders, a redeemer, a phobos, and 2 crusaders. All are outstanding at what they do, but each has a very different role for me. YMMV, and I encourage you to really analyze exactly what holes you need filled. Again, I strongly advise against a single land raider!

Just wondering how you can have 4 Land Raiders if your only allowed to run 3 Heavy Support Choices?

Dedicated transports

heck BA can ONLY get them that way!

It's a Vulkan List so that means hes playing a Normal Marines List
And Normal Marines can only take LR as Heavy Support Choices

I think you'll find that to be incorrect upon review of the codex.

3 x heavy support, 1 with my terminators. You seriously didn't know that assault terminators can take a land raider as a dedicated transport (1 squad can, anyway?)

They have a Transport Capacity but nowhere in the Codex does it say you are allowed to take LR as Dedicated Transports, they are under the Heavy Support choice

3 x heavy, 1 as dedicated for assault terminators.

This should be a poll.