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For a SM army with an assault Terminator force if you only had room point wise to throw in a single and raider as their dedicated transport which variant would you choose? The standard las cannon variant? The Redeemer? or Crusader? I've seen some people really in love with the redeemer for its flame cannons which accentuate the assault for the Termies but I am inclined towards the shooty goodness of the las cannons but that's coming from someone with little to no real experience what do you find in the game makes the best variant to choose pound for pound?

1. Redeemer
2. Crusader
3. Standard

The redeemer is the most aggressive and the only land raider that is capable of wiping badguys independent of its terminator quad. the Crusader has extra transport capacity and can shoot all of its guns pretty consistently. However its guns arent all that aggressive so its ok but not great. Dont take the standard 250 points for av 14 2 twin linked lascannons and a twin linked heavy bolter is a joke strait up. No one takes these things for serious competition.
AF

I prefer the Crusader

Normal raider kinda wastes its weapon when moving and the redeemer can fully take advantage of all weapons

Crusader can use all its default equipment when mobile and carries the most termies too (that is until I get myself a FW Ram! Unless they're gonna change that silly rule!)

Go with a Crusader

The normal Land raider wouldn't be a good choice because its really meant to kill tanks and not much else

As for the Reedemer, its good but more then likly you'll wipe off the target with the Flamestorm Cannons so you won't have anything left to assault

Go Crusader, they are specifically meant for Transporting close combat vets and provide close quarter support, the Hurracaine bolters are defensive weapons so you can fire them even if you moved at combat speed you can still fire them plus with PMS you can fire the assault cannon too

What kind of army do you play? If you're charging toward the enemy, go with a Crusader or a Redeemer. If you're playing shooty go with a Godhammer to add some weight to your long-range fire while you position for a counter assault.

Riddick40k wrote:The normal Land raider wouldn't be a good choice because its really meant to kill tanks and not much else

It's not bad against Nobz and Plague Marines and other tough infantry. Actually, it's great.

Riddick40k wrote:Go with a Crusader
As for the Reedemer, its good but more then likly you'll wipe off the target with the Flamestorm Cannons so you won't have anything left to assault

ummm... you can fix this by flaming target A and charging target B....
AF

I'm torn between the standard LR and the LRC.

The Godhammer hurts the enemy from turn one with it's highly accurate lascannons. The HB feels like an afterthought IMO but is still nice to have.

The LRC is the ultimate in getting your troops to the frontlines quick. It puts out a lot of dakka and has an outrageous carrying capacity.

The LRR is the least useful IMO, it's cheaper but has problems that plague the other designs. It has the LRC's short range, except EVEN shorter now, and the Godhammer's problem of only not being able to fully use it's firepower if it moved. Granted when it fires one of those flamestorms it will make them extra crispy, but I'd rather not wait for 2 turns until it gets in range.

Its more important to deliver the terminators than to shoot the lascannons. if you only shoot 1 on your way in I guess thats ok but it doesnt really compare to zapping a whole enemy squad with the flame storm cannon. It sucks waiting like you say but in my experience if I get to shoot that flame storm cannon twice I'll usually go on to win the game, because its so devestating.
AF

The Land Raider carrying the Godhammer Lascannons is called the "Phobos" pattern Land Raider...

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Its more important to deliver the terminators than to shoot the lascannons. if you only shoot 1 on your way in I guess thats ok but it doesnt really compare to zapping a whole enemy squad with the flame storm cannon. It sucks waiting like you say but in my experience if I get to shoot that flame storm cannon twice I'll usually go on to win the game, because its so devestating.
AF

That depends entirely on the army build that you have, as I illustrated above. There are more ways to play the game than "Push models forwards and assault rawr."

Nurglitch wrote:The Land Raider carrying the Godhammer Lascannons is called the "Phobos" pattern Land Raider...

"Phobos" it is. Now and forever.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Its more important to deliver the terminators than to shoot the lascannons.

^^^^^

This right here. Remember that the most important thing behind any Dedicated Transport is getting the unit that it's carrying to its intended target. IMHO, it depends on what kind of Terminators you're using, and how many points you're allotting for the game.

TH/SS and regular Terminators won't benefit from a Frag Assault Launcher, since they always strike at Init 1 (except for the Terminator Sgt). If you have the points to field more than 6 Terminators, and have nothing else to field, take the LRC. If you don't have the points for them, take a Redeemer or Godhammer. The best thing you can do is use the LR that best compliments your list.

Redeemers are great at Anti-Infantry. Against MEQ's, especially. If you find the list short on Anti-MEQ-Infantry, this is a good choice.

Crusaders are great when playing against Horde-like armies with bad Armor Saves. They're ideal against armies that bring the fight to you, so you can sit back and shoot them as they advance, and whittle down their forces to manageable numbers by the time they reach your front line. I like Crusaders when I'm using LC Terminators, and fill out the entire LR with them to get as many LC attacks as possible.

Godhammers are good at Anti-Tank, albeit there are better units at it. This would be a last resort LR to take, IMO, and only if you have no other Anti-Tank units. A Redeemer would serve the same purposes as far as transporting Terminators (Both Assault and Regular), since their capacity is the same. Only difference is that LC Terminators might not get to attack at their Init when coming out of a Godhammer.

Anyways, pay close attention to how the rest of your list adds up, and pick the LR that best suits and compliments the list and the Terminators you're putting in it.

Being a Templar player I field the LRC, its excellent on delivering my LC Termies and as stated can almost always fire its weapons :-) but when I'm not playing that I run the standard

Nurglitch wrote:The Land Raider carrying the Godhammer Lascannons is called the "Phobos" pattern Land Raider...

I know. but Phobos just does not sound as awesome.

I still like it more then the Redeemer.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:1. Redeemer
2. Crusader
3. Standard

The redeemer is the most aggressive and the only land raider that is capable of wiping badguys independent of its terminator quad. the Crusader has extra transport capacity and can shoot all of its guns pretty consistently. However its guns arent all that aggressive so its ok but not great. Dont take the standard 250 points for av 14 2 twin linked lascannons and a twin linked heavy bolter is a joke strait up. No one takes these things for serious competition.
AF

IMO, This is an example of a bad suggestion. Redeemer is the worst of the 3, not the best. While I agree that the Phobos is underpowered compared to the Crusader, that is more because the Crusader has everything you could ask for: huge transport capacity, ability to fire all its weapons on the move and weapons that are strong against a diverse target selection.

Monster Rain wrote:What kind of army do you play? If you're charging toward the enemy, go with a Crusader or a Redeemer. If you're playing shooty go with a Godhammer to add some weight to your long-range fire while you position for a counter assault.

This is great advice. The key point here is that the optimal LR variant entire depends on the rest of the army.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Its more important to deliver the terminators than to shoot the lascannons. if you only shoot 1 on your way in I guess thats ok but it doesnt really compare to zapping a whole enemy squad with the flame storm cannon. It sucks waiting like you say but in my experience if I get to shoot that flame storm cannon twice I'll usually go on to win the game, because its so devestating.
AF

Its interesting that you are stating that getting the 200 point terminator unit into its optimal damage position is more important than using the 250 point tank to put out its optimal damage. Saying that a single flamestorm cannon shot is better than a single TL lascannon shot is misleading to say the least.

Rurouni Benshin wrote:This right here. Remember that the most important thing behind any Dedicated Transport is getting the unit that it's carrying to its intended target. IMHO, it depends on what kind of Terminators you're using, and how many points you're allotting for the game.

Again this is misleading. This kind of black and white statement is not helpful IMO. Certainly using the transport to increase your mobility is a key part of using a LR, but this game is not played in a vacuum. The LR is 250 points - usually more costly than the terminators squad inside (not including ICs). It is that expensive because it has high AV and PoTMS in addition to its transport capacity. That makes it a target that is hard to stop at a distance from both transporting AND firing.

In order to get your investment out of the LR, you really need to use both its strengths. Both its shooting power and transport capacity are important, and which is more important varies from army to army, scenario to scenario and opponent to opponent.

Rurouni Benshin wrote:The best thing you can do is use the LR that best compliments your list.

Even if I disagree with your analysis, at least we can agree on this point.

Rurouni Benshin wrote:Redeemers are great at Anti-Infantry. Against MEQ's, especially. If you find the list short on Anti-MEQ-Infantry, this is a good choice.

True, but getting them into position to exploit their strength is the problem. If you move as fast as possible at the enemy to get into position, you are probably outpacing the rest of your army, and handing your LRR into melta range. The redeemer is a bit strange as such, since in order to get the most use out of its weapons you have to put it in a situation where it is most vulnerable, within melta range. Trading your 240 point vehicle for a 170 point tactical squad is a poor trade. Sure you got your terminators into assault, but winning is not just a matter of getting your terminators into assault.

The only real time you would be better suited to use the redeemer is in an all out assault based army. If you intend to charge at your enemy and overwhelm them, then the redeemer is probably best for that job. One thing to note about this plan, however, is that the C:SM is not particularly suited to executing this plan.

Rurouni Benshin wrote:Crusaders are great when playing against Horde-like armies with bad Armor Saves. They're ideal against armies that bring the fight to you, so you can sit back and shoot them as they advance, and whittle down their forces to manageable numbers by the time they reach your front line. I like Crusaders when I'm using LC Terminators, and fill out the entire LR with them to get as many LC attacks as possible.

Crusaders are great for playing a mobile gunline. The power of this build is that you can move at combat speed and still fire all its weapons, including the multimelta. This is a unique ability available only to the crusader, the other LR variants require you to remain stationary to fire all its weapons. This makes it more mobile, and with its weapon selection it is more flexible in target selection.

Rurouni Benshin wrote:Godhammers are good at Anti-Tank, albeit there are better units at it. This would be a last resort LR to take, IMO, and only if you have no other Anti-Tank units. A Redeemer would serve the same purposes as far as transporting Terminators (Both Assault and Regular), since their capacity is the same. Only difference is that LC Terminators might not get to attack at their Init when coming out of a Godhammer.

Phobos is much better equipped for dealing with enemy vehicles, so it is your choice if you are looking for more long range punch and the ability to move your counterassault unit around. I would submit that this is for more of a static gunline build.

Rurouni Benshin wrote:Anyways, pay close attention to how the rest of your list adds up, and pick the LR that best suits and compliments the list and the Terminators you're putting in it.

Agreed!

From a person who has seen all 3 in action on multiple occasions, Godhammer one and only. In my friendly gaming club a crusader would almost be laughable, and a redeemer, while "aggressive" and good at what it does, its what it cant do that gets it.

A Las-raider isnt the biggest threat to infantry, but what is the trend of 5th? Mech, thats what. And anyway, what sane infantry is going to come near a 5+ terminator squad toting land raider.

Godhammers have the ability to reach out and touch somebody. Crusaders just dont cut it for me, and redeemers, well.. their ok?

But this is quite a biased opinion here. We have no common ork players, and the tyranid players are nidzilla.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Its more important to deliver the terminators than to shoot the lascannons.


Crusaders are great when playing against Horde-like armies with bad Armor Saves. They're ideal against armies that bring the fight to you, so you can sit back and shoot them as they advance, and whittle down their forces to manageable numbers by the time they reach your front line. I like Crusaders when I'm using LC Terminators, and fill out the entire LR with them to get as many LC attacks as possible.

This is right on the money. Crusaders own orks, horde tyrannid, and even can pressure infantry with a not-that-great armour save, such as fire warriors.

Plus delivering 8 terminators....... mouth watering possibilities.

I reckon that the standard LR should definately have its points reduced. It's a less viable option as a transport compared to the other two. If you want lascannons, tool up a predator for almost half the points.

Hmm on the topic of raiders, how good are the 2 FW ones?

Land Raider Prometheus and Helios

Although they dont seem too good in my eyes. Prometheus is good at anti infantry but thats it(reduce cover saves by -1). More expensive than the normal raider and less mobile (it has 4 HB)

Helios is odd I guess. only holds 6 models I think and it basically all range power

Everytime you call the Phobos Land Raider "Godhammer", a non-space marine codex get delayed. Also, 10 kittens get run over by a Phobos at the same time, so use it's correct name!

Anyways, everyone knows that the scariest thing inside an LR in objective-based games isn't termies, it's Tacticals.

liam0404 wrote:
I reckon that the standard LR should definately have its points reduced. It's a less viable option as a transport compared to the other two. If you want lascannons, tool up a predator for almost half the points.

It has the same capacity as the Redeemer, right?

If you don't think the Phobos pattern is viable, I don't think you seem them used correctly.

Dracos just hit it in the head.

C:SM is definitely better off with Phobos, its job mainly being reactive by shooting armored threats and receiving death star units with TH/SS terminators that are about to hit your lines.

Nothing beats the look on your opponent's face as his TWC is counter charged by 5 TH/SS termies only to be dogpiled with tacs while your Phobos is shooting stuff safe from melta range.

Personally tho, I dont run Crusaders and Redeemers unless its a 1750+ point game.

Yes, but if you want to run the standard LC as a transport, You're almost never going to get to fire your lascannons. That's why its the weakest of the 3.

As I said, if armoured lascannons are your thing, take a predator - much cheaper.

If your delivering terminators your going to be getting close so the Redeemer with a pintle mounted Multimelta is the best unless you need the extra capacity of the Crusader.

Monster Rain wrote:
It has the same capacity as the Redeemer, right?

If you don't think the Phobos pattern is viable, I don't think you seem them used correctly.

In the regular marine codex the Redeemer and the Phobos can both carry 12 models. In C:BA (and also C:SW IIRC) The Phobos can only carry 10 models.

Its a shame too as I really like the Phobos but the lower transport capacity in this case really hinders its potential as you cannot take a full assault squad or a minimum terminator squad and attach an IC to them.

Personally I've never seen a need for the super sized cargo bay in the Crusader. I just don't field squads that big. 12 models seemed like a sweet spot transport wise.

Cheers,
~Volkan

@ kirka - Remember crusaders can get the multimelta as well.

liam0404 wrote:Yes, but if you want to run the standard LC as a transport, You're almost never going to get to fire your lascannons. That's why its the weakest of the 3.

You can fire one per turn, no matter what. And you're missing the point that you can use it to defend your shooty units from assault, or at least counter assault. I spend a turn or two(or three on a good day) moving 6 inches per turn and lighting up things with the Lascannons. The terminators assault out of it, a Tactical Squad hops in and ride off toward an objective.

Yes Crusaders can get a pintle multimelta and should for their anti tank capability but the Redeemer has the flamestorm cannons which are more effective then hurricane bolters, since they bypass cover and are ap3 so unless you need the crusaders extra capacity take a Redeemer.

imho you should only use the standard (godhammer) lr if you are using the terminators inside for counter-charge duty. If that's the case, the land raider is going to be the centerpiece of your defence, so you want it shooting both lascannons per turn.

The Crusader and Redeemer have very little difference really, the Redeemer is cheeper, the Crusader can hold a ton of guys and shoots more bullets. If you think your land raider might be farther away from the fight, use the crusader, if you intend on ramming it down your opponent's throat, use the redeemer.

liam0404 wrote:Yes, but if you want to run the standard LC as a transport, You're almost never going to get to fire your lascannons. That's why its the weakest of the 3.

As I said, if armoured lascannons are your thing, take a predator - much cheaper.

You're not getting me. In terms of transporting, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the Phobos is inferior. The question is how you are using your land raiders. The phobos is particularly adept at moving 6 and firing both lascannons: A conservative tactic for when you're not hell bent in getting your termies in assault (for mopping up of whats left of the enemy or contesting that objective). This particularly plays well with C:SM. However, if it were about BAs and SWs, Id take the 2 other patterns absolutely.

So much off-subject chatter after the truth was already spoken:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Its more important to deliver the terminators than to shoot

If you're taking the LR as a transport, then take it as a TRANSPORT, not a gun boat.

If you are using it to transport stuff, that means you're moving, if you're moving, that means you only get 1 real shot off if you're moving slow (once again, this is a transport, why are you moving it slowly?), and none if the transport is doing it's job. All of this talk about lascannons is pure nonsense for the task at hand.

Once you've delivered your cargo, assuming you've survived, then you can talk about guns, which, honestly aren't really worth bragging about here. The crusader gets to shoot it's guns AND move, but then you're blowing away targets that you're trying to assault. The redeemer gets a flamer, but, once again, either you're shooting stuff you want to be locked in combat with so your terminators don't get shot at, or your terminators are killing things, leaving your flamers with fewer targets. That and they're sponson weapons, which means you're only ever shooting 1 due to LOS problems.

So, if the point is to take a LR that is going to transport terminators and then not immediately get into conflict with the terminators, then there's really only one option: a vanilla LR. Throw a multi-melta on (because you're going to be close, remember?) and then leave it be. Once it's delivered it's cargo, you've already gotten most of the use out of the vehicle. After that, it's probably going to be tank shocking or ramming or something anyways.

Keep it cheap (relative to the price of a LR) and keep it simple.

The standard land raider will be your vehicle killer, and delivery system for some very angry guys with hammers rushing out at your discrecion to whoop the snot out of some tough infantry or HQ type units. It doesn't do hordes well, but it definitely wins on tank popping.

Crusader, great for a commander and entourage of termies and get busy with choppy madness. it's weapons are obviously inferior and its lack of significant range makes it less of a multi-tasker and more of a bus for the termies with some dakka as an afterthought.

Redeemer, sick flame cannons, but kind of unwieldy. Since they are on opposite sides sponsons it will be difficult to line them both up on the same target squad. More than likely you will just be firing one or the other.

So... all that said... the standard LR complements the termies it carries by taking care of tanks while they bonk people on heads and take care of assault.