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monster rain wrote:
There are more ways to play the game than "Push models forwards and assault rawr."

yes... theres also "we stand and shoot you rawr."
that too.
AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dracos
you said: IMO, This is an example of a bad suggestion. Redeemer is the worst of the 3, not the best. While I agree that the Phobos is underpowered compared to the Crusader, that is more because the Crusader has everything you could ask for: huge transport capacity, ability to fire all its weapons on the move and weapons that are strong against a diverse target selection.


the question isnt "how many guns do I get to shoot" but "how do I kill the most badguys." the flamestorm cannon is stronger against power armor targets than all the crusaders guns, and about equivalent to the crusader against light infantry. the crusader carries 2 more terminators. big whoop.
AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dracos
you said: Its interesting that you are stating that getting the 200 point terminator unit into its optimal damage position is more important than using the 250 point tank to put out its optimal damage. Saying that a single flamestorm cannon shot is better than a single TL lascannon shot is misleading to say the least.

Whats interesting about it? Why is it misleading? Its hard for me to respond to your criticisms when they dont have any content.
AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JSK-Fox wrote: everyone knows that the scariest thing inside an LR in objective-based games isn't termies, it's Tacticals.

If by "everyone" you mean "no one" then I guess thats true

Guitardian wrote:

So... all that said... the standard LR complements the termies it carries by taking care of tanks while they bonk people on heads and take care of assault.

This.

And that's how I usually run it, I can deal with moving only 6" if my enemy is losing most of his transports.

For me the Phobos and the Crusader seem to win hands down, firstly I think that the redeemer with the flames while sweet and all, only get use of one.

Phobos will likely be my first LR due to lack of ranged anti tank in my list.(1 MR, 3 Meltas) However since my list does run C:BA and C:SM, I am also considering the crusader so I can carry 15 DC + chappy as uber omnomnomnom unit.

Lol, you really do not need that many DC. I personally run 7 with a reclusiarch in my Godhammer (I hate cats, so die kitties!)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

JSK-Fox wrote: everyone knows that the scariest thing inside an LR in objective-based games isn't termies, it's Tacticals.

If by "everyone" you mean "no one" then I guess thats true

My land raiders after having dropped off their payload, typically finds a marine, a remnant of a tac squad or something, picks him up and then goes... somewhere.

It denies my enemy KP, and in objective missions, just one basic marine is not really gonna do much, so at least make my Land Raider score!

against MEQ shooting the flamestorm cannon just once is devestating. doing it twice is game-winning. Its difficult for me to understand why the crusader is getting so much love. this talk about the phobos being so awesome is just crazy.

I will say 4. None.
1 land raider is just too easy to open up.

They really depend on your play style. I run an 'ard boyz Vulkan list that uses 4 raiders, a redeemer, a phobos, and 2 crusaders. All are outstanding at what they do, but each has a very different role for me. YMMV, and I encourage you to really analyze exactly what holes you need filled. Again, I strongly advise against a single land raider!

IMO, no one disagrees with you that the redeemer has the most damage potential. It's just for it to be of nearly any use, you have to get stupid close (the other 2 have to as well to drop off termies, but the Redeemer HAS to be for it's flamestorms to be of any use). It is not nearly as flexible as the LRC and the Phobos. It also has that really irritating blind spot directly in front of it. Then again, the termies can just pop out of it.

Inigo Montoya wrote:I will say 4. None.
1 land raider is just too easy to open up.

They really depend on your play style. I run an 'ard boyz Vulkan list that uses 4 raiders, a redeemer, a phobos, and 2 crusaders. All are outstanding at what they do, but each has a very different role for me. YMMV, and I encourage you to really analyze exactly what holes you need filled. Again, I strongly advise against a single land raider!

I completly agree with you. Target saturation is key.

kenshin620 wrote:Hmm on the topic of raiders, how good are the 2 FW ones?

Land Raider Prometheus and Helios

Although they dont seem too good in my eyes. Prometheus is good at anti infantry but thats it(reduce cover saves by -1). More expensive than the normal raider and less mobile (it has 4 HB)

Helios is odd I guess. only holds 6 models I think and it basically all range power

I am a big fan of the helios. I just started proxying one (in the process of building the turret mount) and it is a blast. You get lascannons for popping vehicles, plus PotMS lets you fire an additional whirlwind pie plate at an unrelated infantry squad every turn.

That said, it is NOT a good answer for the OP because it only holds 6 models (3 termies) so it is not a transport. In my most recent game though, I mounted a tactical combat squad in it and used it as a scoring platform while it blasted away at range.

I play with a "Linebreaker" (not the craptastic Apoc formation) formation consisting of 2 LRC and 1 Orbital Strike. I place 10 PaGK, 3 Inquisitors, and an Inquisitor lord into the LRC. 7 GK termies and a Grandmaster into another one (That's like 860 points )

The 2 LRR's scream forward while the S6 Orbital bombardment hammers at all infantry, and the the mass extinction of my enemies comes at the hand of more strength 6.

My vote goes to the GKLRC. It ignores most armor and invul saves.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

Dracos
you said: IMO, This is an example of a bad suggestion. Redeemer is the worst of the 3, not the best. While I agree that the Phobos is underpowered compared to the Crusader, that is more because the Crusader has everything you could ask for: huge transport capacity, ability to fire all its weapons on the move and weapons that are strong against a diverse target selection.


the question isnt "how many guns do I get to shoot" but "how do I kill the most badguys." the flamestorm cannon is stronger against power armor targets than all the crusaders guns, and about equivalent to the crusader against light infantry. the crusader carries 2 more terminators. big whoop.
AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dracos
you said: Its interesting that you are stating that getting the 200 point terminator unit into its optimal damage position is more important than using the 250 point tank to put out its optimal damage. Saying that a single flamestorm cannon shot is better than a single TL lascannon shot is misleading to say the least.

Whats interesting about it? Why is it misleading? Its hard for me to respond to your criticisms when they dont have any content.
AF

You thinking is starting to head in the right direction, but it is still flawed. Depending on the role you need the land raider to perform, an flamestorm may be far more valuable than a tl las cannon. What we need to focus on is not what is *better*, but what better servers the role. What do I need to happen that is not happening right now. I am not talking about the simplistic " I needs to kill tanks, so I takes a gawdhammah" approach, but a more analytical investigation into what your list is lacking. Often you will find that a land raider of any variant is actually the wrong choice.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

JSK-Fox wrote: everyone knows that the scariest thing inside an LR in objective-based games isn't termies, it's Tacticals.

If by "everyone" you mean "no one" then I guess thats true

I'd love to see 14 blood claws a wolf priest and a wolf guard in an LRC :3

Alternatively, 16 Crusaders jumping out of a land raider is a nightmare all it's own.

Scoring units inside a landraider is generally fail though. it can be annoying (and viable if you've got no other option) The raider can be a very tough tank, but it's too expensive to cart around 5 tactical marines who can't make good use of the assault ramp. I'd rather have a rhino, and use the points saved from the LR to get some more guns elsewhere.

starbomber109 wrote:I'd love to see 14 blood claws a wolf priest and a wolf guard in an LRC :3

Alternatively, 16 Crusaders jumping out of a land raider is a nightmare all it's own.

Scoring units inside a landraider is generally fail though. it can be annoying (and viable if you've got no other option) The raider can be a very tough tank, but it's too expensive to cart around 5 tactical marines who can't make good use of the assault ramp. I'd rather have a rhino, and use the points saved from the LR to get some more guns elsewhere.

It's not the reason to bring a Land Raider, but it's a nice option. It's won me a couple of games.

starbomber109 wrote:
Scoring units inside a landraider is generally fail though. it can be annoying (and viable if you've got no other option) The raider can be a very tough tank, but it's too expensive to cart around 5 tactical marines who can't make good use of the assault ramp. I'd rather have a rhino, and use the points saved from the LR to get some more guns elsewhere.

That is why you don't deploy them in there, you drop off the payload and then go pick a few marines up.

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:

starbomber109 wrote:
Scoring units inside a landraider is generally fail though. it can be annoying (and viable if you've got no other option) The raider can be a very tough tank, but it's too expensive to cart around 5 tactical marines who can't make good use of the assault ramp. I'd rather have a rhino, and use the points saved from the LR to get some more guns elsewhere.

That is why you don't deploy them in there, you drop off the payload and then go pick a few marines up.

Ha! Exactly. I remember a game where I had Vulkan with a single wound left and the one remaining scout from my Form squad jump into my empty LR and drive away, preserving 2 kill points that may have otherwise lost me the game.

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:

starbomber109 wrote:
Scoring units inside a landraider is generally fail though. it can be annoying (and viable if you've got no other option) The raider can be a very tough tank, but it's too expensive to cart around 5 tactical marines who can't make good use of the assault ramp. I'd rather have a rhino, and use the points saved from the LR to get some more guns elsewhere.

That is why you don't deploy them in there, you drop off the payload and then go pick a few marines up.

QFT
I didn't think I actually needed to explain the entire process...

Neither did I.

It seems logical. You dropped off the termies, now what? You go make the land raider into a supa-awesum rhino with big guns.

GODHAMMER PATTERN

I never use the others. I like the standard one too much to bother. Then again, I play CSM

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

monster rain wrote:
There are more ways to play the game than "Push models forwards and assault rawr."

yes... theres also "we stand and shoot you rawr."
that too.
AF

If you think the game is that simplistic, I feel sorry for you. There is also all manner of play between those extremes. There is also "maneuver army to gain local superiority of forces and take your army apart peice by peice, with either shooting or CC."

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dracos
you said: IMO, This is an example of a bad suggestion. Redeemer is the worst of the 3, not the best. While I agree that the Phobos is underpowered compared to the Crusader, that is more because the Crusader has everything you could ask for: huge transport capacity, ability to fire all its weapons on the move and weapons that are strong against a diverse target selection.


the question isnt "how many guns do I get to shoot" but "how do I kill the most badguys." the flamestorm cannon is stronger against power armor targets than all the crusaders guns, and about equivalent to the crusader against light infantry. the crusader carries 2 more terminators. big whoop.
AF

You seem to be under the impression that somehow getting to shoot 1 flamestorm cannon once for every two times the crusader can shoot both hurricane bolters is going to net more kills. This is not the case. The thing about template attacks is that your opponent can see you lining up the shot. On their turn, they have the opportunity to spread out and avoid losing the whole unit. The crusader will be able to shoot more often and is less avoidable.

Also, once your AV 14 vehicle gets within the template range, you are facing all manner of melta/S10CC/MC retribution. The crusader is not as vulnerable as it does not have to get that close to start shooting. Overall, the crusader is going to net more kills than your redeemer.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dracos
you said: Its interesting that you are stating that getting the 200 point terminator unit into its optimal damage position is more important than using the 250 point tank to put out its optimal damage. Saying that a single flamestorm cannon shot is better than a single TL lascannon shot is misleading to say the least.

Whats interesting about it? Why is it misleading? Its hard for me to respond to your criticisms when they dont have any content.
AF

It is interesting because you are simply dismissing half of the reason to take the LR in the first place. It is a gun platform and a transport. It is not simply a transport that happens to have guns. Your statement about a flamestorm cannon being "better" is misleading because it is entirely situationally dependant. For instance if you are not in flaming range, the TL lascannon is infinitely better. The point is that "better" is entirely subjective and dependant on the position of the game as a whole.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

JSK-Fox wrote: everyone knows that the scariest thing inside an LR in objective-based games isn't termies, it's Tacticals.

If by "everyone" you mean "no one" then I guess thats true

Yeah, those scoring landraiders are easy to kill from across the table. I guess everyone has broadsides? /boggle

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:Neither did I.

It seems logical. You dropped off the termies, now what? You go make the land raider into a supa-awesum rhino with big guns.

Well, I guess that works, but that's not why you took the land raider in the list (it's a good bonus though) And if you need a bunker, I can think of nothing better than a bunker with treads. Only downside is you can't shoot the tactical weapons while inside the raider (not like you need to, but other transports give you the option)

Dracos wrote:
If you think the game is that simplistic, I feel sorry for you. There is also all manner of play between those extremes. There is also "maneuver army to gain local superiority of forces and take your army apart peice by peice, with either shooting or CC."

9 times out of 10 it really is. sorry. I playa maneuver army btw. but it basically depends on my opponent messing up to win. a really hard core competitive strategy would be either sit and shoot or get in close combat by turn 2 and wreck everything. I dont write the rules man, I just play the game

Dracos wrote:
You seem to be under the impression that somehow getting to shoot 1 flamestorm cannon once for every two times the crusader can shoot both hurricane bolters is going to net more kills. This is not the case. The thing about template attacks is that your opponent can see you lining up the shot. On their turn, they have the opportunity to spread out and avoid losing the whole unit. The crusader will be able to shoot more often and is less avoidable.

you seem to be under the impression you'll get to shoot the crusaders guns twice for every 1 time you'll get to shoot the redeemer's. It aint so.
If I can get my opponent to rework his whole deployment based around what my 1 tank is going to do, great.
the crusader's weapons are not more avoidable - cover cuts their effectiveness in half, if you hit, if you wound. The redeemer is comparatively simple: I hit you, I wound on a 2+, you die. doesn't get much better than that.

Dracos wrote:[
Also, once your AV 14 vehicle gets within the template range, you are facing all manner of melta/S10CC/MC retribution. The crusader is not as vulnerable as it does not have to get that close to start shooting. Overall, the crusader is going to net more kills than your redeemer.

this is a problem with all land raiders. The crusader is every bit as vulnerable it still has to deliver the terminators. Unless you think 250 points is a good price to pay for an assault cannon and a pair of hurricane bolters.

Dracos wrote:
It is interesting because you are simply dismissing half of the reason to take the LR in the first place. It is a gun platform and a transport. It is not simply a transport that happens to have guns. Your statement about a flamestorm cannon being "better" is misleading because it is entirely situationally dependant. For instance if you are not in flaming range, the TL lascannon is infinitely better. The point is that "better" is entirely subjective and dependant on the position of the game as a whole.

I'm arguing that its not a very good gun platform. Look if you dont see that the two twin linked lascannons arent very good at killing vehicles then I'm not going to try to argue the point with you. Its just so.
Better is not subjective - the game is based on math its completely, 100%, entirely, objective. God I get tired of you "subjective" people. How much more objective can it possibly be? Its numbers just do the math.

Dracos wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

JSK-Fox wrote: everyone knows that the scariest thing inside an LR in objective-based games isn't termies, it's Tacticals.

If by "everyone" you mean "no one" then I guess thats true

Yeah, those scoring landraiders are easy to kill from across the table. I guess everyone has broadsides? /boggle

no......... but about half the armies do have meltaguns. but..... you knew that....
AF

As an Imperial Guard player, I'd say that the most dangerous things about land raider is the fact that they protect their cargo of sword wielding om nom nom ness VERY well. Even playing against someone who fields a Land Raider crusader, I find that I'm not scared of the giant flamethrowers, I'm scared of the cargo. The giant flamethrowers can be eliminated by glancing the Raider to death, but the cargo inside is still well protected, and against an army that needs to shoot things to death, the fact that the Land Raider will almost ALWAYS get its cargo close enough to assault you without a chance of being able to shoot at said cargo is, and always will be its greatest threat to me.

Unless your playing Apoc and someone puts down a Terminus Ultra. Then all tanks should hide until it is reduced to scrap metal.

Kolath wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:Hmm on the topic of raiders, how good are the 2 FW ones?

Land Raider Prometheus and Helios

Although they dont seem too good in my eyes. Prometheus is good at anti infantry but thats it(reduce cover saves by -1). More expensive than the normal raider and less mobile (it has 4 HB)

Helios is odd I guess. only holds 6 models I think and it basically all range power

I am a big fan of the helios. I just started proxying one (in the process of building the turret mount) and it is a blast. You get lascannons for popping vehicles, plus PotMS lets you fire an additional whirlwind pie plate at an unrelated infantry squad every turn.

That said, it is NOT a good answer for the OP because it only holds 6 models (3 termies) so it is not a transport. In my most recent game though, I mounted a tactical combat squad in it and used it as a scoring platform while it blasted away at range.

Hmm true. its obvious the 6 man transport is begging to be only used for fire support!

Now the Command Rhino and the Dreadnought Drop Pod, thats some messed up stuff.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:against MEQ shooting the flamestorm cannon just once is devestating. doing it twice is game-winning. Its difficult for me to understand why the crusader is getting so much love. this talk about the phobos being so awesome is just crazy.

The only time you're ever going to get maximum effect from that Flamestorm Cannon is when you pop a transport, then manage to get that thing into position and flame everybody while they're packed into a nice template formation.

Nobody's going to sit there and let you flame an entire squad. Unless your opponents are idiots they're going to spread out and you'll only get a few guys with that cannon anyway.

This isn't good advice at all. But I am torn between the Crusader and the Redeemer.

The normal land raider, being the only one chaos can take can feth off.

I honestly don't see Hurricane Bolters as that effective. The Firestorm cannons are basically oversized doom-sirens. That's AWESOME. And the Tled AC is....brutal.

Today my Phobos Patter Land Raider won me the game by wrecking or immobilizing 3 Rhinos and pulled the mobility right out from under the opponent, and on turn 5 I assaulted the one objective my opponent held with my Assault Terminators and Vulkan making the score 2-0. Battle report will be up tomorrow.

Anecdotal? Sure. But I just wanted to point out that this could not have been done with any other variant of Land Raider.

The LRC has about the same firepower as a tac squad. 12 TL bolter shots will net you about 11 hits. One less then 9 marines. It'll net you 5 wounds.

The TL-AC will net you 4 wounds (not counting rending, too much math...) and the MM will kill... something mechanized.

So total, the LRC will net 9 savable wounds. So about 3 dead MEQ. Not bad.

Now awaiting for someone to say that the LRR would of killed the entire squad...

Inigo Montoya wrote:I will say 4. None.
1 land raider is just too easy to open up.

They really depend on your play style. I run an 'ard boyz Vulkan list that uses 4 raiders, a redeemer, a phobos, and 2 crusaders. All are outstanding at what they do, but each has a very different role for me. YMMV, and I encourage you to really analyze exactly what holes you need filled. Again, I strongly advise against a single land raider!

Just wondering how you can have 4 Land Raiders if your only allowed to run 3 Heavy Support Choices?

Riddick40k wrote:

Inigo Montoya wrote:I will say 4. None.
1 land raider is just too easy to open up.

They really depend on your play style. I run an 'ard boyz Vulkan list that uses 4 raiders, a redeemer, a phobos, and 2 crusaders. All are outstanding at what they do, but each has a very different role for me. YMMV, and I encourage you to really analyze exactly what holes you need filled. Again, I strongly advise against a single land raider!

Just wondering how you can have 4 Land Raiders if your only allowed to run 3 Heavy Support Choices?

Dedicated transports

heck BA can ONLY get them that way!

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:The LRC has about the same firepower as a tac squad. 12 TL bolter shots will net you about 11 hits. One less then 9 marines. It'll net you 5 wounds.

The TL-AC will net you 4 wounds (not counting rending, too much math...) and the MM will kill... something mechanized.

So total, the LRC will net 9 savable wounds. So about 3 dead MEQ. Not bad.

Now awaiting for someone to say that the LRR would of killed the entire squad...

Yea I prefer the LRC :-)