Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Melissia wrote:Most FW rules aren't broken, so no, that's not it.

One bad example does not damn the entire group in the eyes of a mature, intelligent person.

what about the hades breaching drill?
(troops choice- 50pts, S10 AP1 large blast when it surfaces, S10 when ramming, 3" meltagun on the front)
or the damocles rhino?
(60pts, orbital bombardment (chapter master one), orbital bombardment (apoc. asset one)).

Both of them are easy to destroy. They're glass cannons.

This one? It's got the cannon down, but it sure as hell ain't glass.

Melissia wrote:Both of them are easy to destroy. They're glass cannons.

This one? It's got the cannon down, but it sure as hell ain't glass.

Because it's not meant to be a glass cannon?

Making a linebreaking siege vehicle a "glass cannon" is stupidity.

And did I ever suggest it should be? No? Then pipe down sparky.

It would be fine if it was costed appropriately. It's not. It would be fine if it wasn't easily able to destroy most things able to counter it. It is.

Melissia wrote:Both of them are easy to destroy. They're glass cannons.

This one? It's got the cannon down, but it sure as hell ain't glass.

That's exactly what you suggested, actually.

300 points is perfectly appropriate for a bloody Heavy Support slot that has the same carrying capacity as a Razorback, an ordnance weapon(which is arguably overcosted in its standard incarnation), and a pair of close-in anti-vehicle weapons.

Kanluwen wrote:That's exactly what you suggested, actually.

No, it is not. You may have read it that way, but you are wrong.

edit: and the TFC certainly isn't overcosted. It's very damned good at what it does, which is destroy hordes and inconvenience/damage vehicles (Through Tremor, which causes vehicles to move as if through dangerous terrain).

shrike wrote:

Melissia wrote:Most FW rules aren't broken, so no, that's not it.

One bad example does not damn the entire group in the eyes of a mature, intelligent person.

what about the hades breaching drill?
(troops choice- 50pts, S10 AP1 large blast when it surfaces, S10 when ramming, 3" meltagun on the front)
or the damocles rhino?
(60pts, orbital bombardment (chapter master one), orbital bombardment (apoc. asset one)).

Melissia wrote:Both of them are easy to destroy. They're glass cannons.

This one? It's got the cannon down, but it sure as hell ain't glass.

yeah- but at 50 and 60pts respectively, they can afford to be destroyed easily. the drill can't be destroyed until it surfaces, and by then it has already reaped a 5" S10 AP1 blast. that can easily kill a 170pt tactical squad for a fraction of the price. The rhino only needs one turn of shooting, and by then it has fired another S10 AP1 5" blast AND set up an orbital bombardment. That can easily kill a few squads in buildings (provided they stay there) and also take out another tactical squad/captain with the chapter master one. way worth the points IMHO.

The Hades is also an example of something that is intended to be used for very specific scenarios and game setups, not general play.

shrike wrote:yeah- but at 50 and 60pts respectively, they can afford to be destroyed easily. the drill can't be destroyed until it surfaces, and by then it has already reaped a 5" S10 AP1 blast. that can easily kill a 170pt tactical squad for a fraction of the price. The rhino only needs one turn of shooting, and by then it has fired another S10 AP1 5" blast AND set up an orbital bombardment. That can easily kill a few squads in buildings (provided they stay there) and also take out another tactical squad/captain with the chapter master one. way worth the points IMHO.

Actually the Drill requires a DK engineer squad to go along with it, which raises it up to 110 points and two slots, which I think is far more reasonable given that it's basically going to die after delivering its S10 attack. The Mawloc is similar, but arguably better due to being T6 with 3+ and 6 wounds. It also pays for it with more points of course.

The Command Rhino you can only ever have one of, and it takes up your second HQ choice. While it is slightly underpriced, again it delivers its payload then dies. And I only recall it having a single orbital bombardment setup, but I'd have to borrow the book again to check so I'll yield that to ya.

n0t_u wrote:

Because anecdotes are statistical proof, right.

"There are lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain


Here' the main problem with this: these statistical analysis are being played out on a flat, featureless plane, one on one, where both parties stand there and pound each other. There is no maneuver, no strategy, and both parties are in range of each other.

Using the same comparison, IG cannot beat SM ever.


and, if the player is using IA rules to take the Achilles, then the Destroyer is an IG heavy support choice for regular 40k, IIRC.

And lets see: BS 4, Str 8, 72" range, 2d6 +1 to penetrate. And I have to roll a 3 or better to keep the target sitting there to get pasted next turn again

or, try this: 9 BS3 twin linked lascannons.

n0t_u wrote:
Also were you trying to say that the Orbital Bombardment and Penitent Engine are good?

I've seen engines kill land raiders before. Player screens them with smoke, terrain, and other vehicles until they are in assualting distance. (it's a pain to set up, but doable.)

Kanluwen wrote:The Hades is also an example of something that is intended to be used for very specific scenarios and game setups, not general play.

The hades can only be bought for another unit, which means it's cost is tied to another unit, and it comes in once and dies. It's a 50pt blast that doesn't adjust BS for scatter that does it's thing once and can be killed after that basically, and the unit it is attached to doesn't get to hide in a transport and you exactly where it is going to come in and when after that so you can take proper countermeasures. Very easy for most armies to deal with. If you've dealt with Ordnance weapons or Mawlocs, you won't have any issues.

That's exactly what you suggested, actually.

300 points is perfectly appropriate for a bloody Heavy Support slot that has the same carrying capacity as a Razorback, an ordnance weapon(which is arguably overcosted in its standard incarnation), and a pair of close-in anti-vehicle weapons.

Not if it can't be killed in the space of an average game for most lists. You're looking at each of its abilities in a vacuum. It's got a 4 shot multi-role blast weapon and two very powerful, medium/short range AT guns (which it will likely have no trouble crossing distances to utilize), and a transport capacity on probably the hardiest non-superheavy platform in the game. It will deny most opponents up to 3 KP's, can force an opponent to play for nothing better than a draw in Capture and Control, and really put the nails on a Seize Ground game. You can't stop it from moving at all unless you immobilize it, it'll always be able to at least fire one weapon as long as it has them (lets be honest, stripping 3 guns off this thing isn't going to be doable in the space of most games) no matter how far it has moved, presents a threat to a wide variety of units with it's diverse weapons loadout, and has pretty good reach with it's hull mounted weapon.

The problem is that it's Ferrmonatic Invulnerability ability is just silly, costing it appropriately is nigh impossible because of it.

Melissia wrote:

shrike wrote:yeah- but at 50 and 60pts respectively, they can afford to be destroyed easily. the drill can't be destroyed until it surfaces, and by then it has already reaped a 5" S10 AP1 blast. that can easily kill a 170pt tactical squad for a fraction of the price. The rhino only needs one turn of shooting, and by then it has fired another S10 AP1 5" blast AND set up an orbital bombardment. That can easily kill a few squads in buildings (provided they stay there) and also take out another tactical squad/captain with the chapter master one. way worth the points IMHO.

two slots

actually, the hades drill doesn't take up a slot. the engineers do.

Melissia wrote:The Command Rhino you can only ever have one of, and it takes up your second HQ choice.

it still can easily kill over 60pts worth.

Let's see...

Wolf Lord
5 Wolf Guard
2x 5 Grey Hunters w/Wolf Guard
3x Achilles Land Raiders


Comes to about 1500 points depending on what upgrades you buy. All of them mounted in the Land Raiders of course. I wonder how many lists that aren't built specifically to beat this could actually do so.

shrike wrote:it still can easily kill over 60pts worth.

So? Just because a model can kill more models than it costs doesn't make it über, see for example the Deathwind Missile.

Melissia wrote:Let's see...

Wolf Lord
5 Wolf Guard
2x 5 Grey Hunters w/Wolf Guard
3x Achilles Land Raiders


Comes to about 1500 points depending on what upgrades you buy. All of them mounted in the Land Raiders of course. I wonder how many lists that aren't built specifically to beat this could actually do so.

hmm... good idea...

Regardless of the rules, I think the model itself is pretty damn ugly. The whole front looks like someone has taken a hammer to a regular LR and gone to town on it.

SilverMK2 wrote:Regardless of the rules, I think the model itself is pretty damn ugly. The whole front looks like someone has taken a hammer to a regular LR and gone to town on it.

I think it looks good. Anyone know what colour that yellow is? (don't just say yellow) ¬_¬ (e.g: sunburst yellow, golden yellow, ect.)

I think it would have looked better if that cannon was on a turret.

Melissia wrote:I think it would have looked better if that cannon was on a turret.

like the TFC mount, but minus the tracks...that would look better...

Was more thinking like the Punisher mount.

The Punisher, despite sucking, looks badass.

Melissia wrote:Was more thinking like the Punisher mount.

The Punisher, despite sucking, looks badass.

I would agree.

Melissia wrote:Was more thinking like the Punisher mount.

The Punisher, despite sucking, looks badass.

yh, I do like the punisher, despite the fact everyone hates it...

SilverMK2 wrote:

Melissia wrote:Was more thinking like the Punisher mount.

The Punisher, despite sucking, looks badass.

I would agree.

Defeats the purpose of the vehicle when you add a turret.

It's a weak spot, something a vehicle like this doesn't want or need.

For feth's sake, they sealed the assault ramp and its compartment specifically for that reason it looks like.

Kanluwen wrote:Defeats the purpose of the vehicle when you add a turret.

It's a weak spot, something a vehicle like this doesn't want or need.

For feth's sake, they sealed the assault ramp and its compartment specifically for that reason it looks like.

Don't get me wrong, I understand why there is no turret. Doesn't mean I have to like how it looks

Can anyone Mathhammer what would happen if I punched this thing in the face with Ghazzy?

Melissia wrote:Let's see...

Wolf Lord
5 Wolf Guard
2x 5 Grey Hunters w/Wolf Guard
3x Achilles Land Raiders


Comes to about 1500 points depending on what upgrades you buy. All of them mounted in the Land Raiders of course. I wonder how many lists that aren't built specifically to beat this could actually do so.

I'm thinking:

IG:

CCS
2xvets (grend, vet missile)
3 valks (LC MRP HB)
3 vendettas (HB)
Marbo


That's (if the math is right) 1485pts with 12 lascannons (9 of which are TL), 12 HBs, 3 MRPS deeps striking to where ever.

chowderhead13 wrote:Can anyone Mathhammer what would happen if I punched this thing in the face with Ghazzy?

with 7 charging attacks, hitting automatically assuming no movement, on average less than 40% chance to kill, or need probably three turns of charges to ensure a kill result. Hitting on 4's, less than 20%, or about 5 charges. Hitting on 6's, you'll need about 15 charges to kill it.

If somebody put this in their army, I would simply not play against their army as I do not plan on tailoring my entire list in order to possibly (but more probably not) take it down.

Vaktathi wrote:

chowderhead13 wrote:Can anyone Mathhammer what would happen if I punched this thing in the face with Ghazzy?

with 7 charging attacks, hitting automatically assuming no movement, on average less than 40% chance to kill, or need probably three turns of charges to ensure a kill result. Hitting on 4's, less than 20%, or about 5 charges. Hitting on 6's, you'll need about 15 charges to kill it.

And thats just beyond silly. Ghaz excels at smashing vehicles, and pretty much anything else as well

Didn't someone on this forum already build a LR with a TFC? As I recall, he built it into a siege shield, instead of the front ramp, and it didn't look like crap. Congrats to forgeworld for making their model look worse than a scratchbuild.

On the killing this thing side of things, what about manticores? You could at least stack some hits on it . . .