punkow wrote:Don't offend comrade stalin! Or Superman the red son will punish you! eheh
Anyway guys... there isn't anything in tau ideology of greater good even far comparable to communism (I know it, read all Marx (yes, even Das Kapital), Lenin, Bucharin and even a little bit of Planned economy principles for my last exam).

They're more similar to the corporativist Italian fascist state, without all the racist gak, moved in a pan-alien view ( something like HiroHito japan panasiatism)... after all they're Anime mecha's Fans

Anyway let's not talk about politics ( I love to talk about politics so this makes me suffer) ... let's talk about how much Tau sucks!!!

Grey Templar wrote:
have you read about how the T'au actually organize their Empire internally. they are incredibly favorable to T'au over other allies.


when a planet is conquored they immediatly Sterilize all disenting individuals so only those who are loyal to the T'au empire can reproduce.

Non-T'au are treated as 2nd class citizens. they have to work much harder then a T'au in a similer job would have to. they explain it by saying "You must prove your loyalty to the Greater Good"

the T'au use non-t'au soldiers as cannon fodder. Humans, Vespids, and Kroot are all viewed as expendable troops.

the T'au also compress the 4 castes. neither can cross breed with the other and are stuck with doing the jobs in their particular sphere.

Medium of Death wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
have you read about how the T'au actually organize their Empire internally. they are incredibly favorable to T'au over other allies.


when a planet is conquored they immediatly Sterilize all disenting individuals so only those who are loyal to the T'au empire can reproduce.

Non-T'au are treated as 2nd class citizens. they have to work much harder then a T'au in a similer job would have to. they explain it by saying "You must prove your loyalty to the Greater Good"

the T'au use non-t'au soldiers as cannon fodder. Humans, Vespids, and Kroot are all viewed as expendable troops.

the T'au also compress the 4 castes. neither can cross breed with the other and are stuck with doing the jobs in their particular sphere.

Where did you get all this from? AFAIK the only thing that is somewhat close to being true is the sterilisation thing. Which is from a videogame, so not actually present in any background material that I am aware of.

Why do people always want to paint the Tau with the same grimdarkness that everything else is soaked in?

Medium of Death wrote:Where did you get all this from? AFAIK the only thing that is somewhat close to being true is the sterilisation thing. Which is from a videogame, so not actually present in any background material that I am aware of.

Why do people always want to paint the Tau with the same grimdarkness that everything else is soaked in?

Um. I think that the "couldn't pull it off, yet did" is the whole point of the backstory.

Tau advanced unnaturally fast as a civilization and in their technology; the Codex stresses that point explicity. Add to that the convenient, unnatural warpstorm. Later the sudden appareance of the Etheral with a Tau-controling organ from half a galaxy away, etc.. , etc.. , . The Codex is choke-full of that.. and on purpose.

The whole point of the Tau background is that it isn't natural evolution but that "someone" or "somethings" been tinkering with them. GW could've just made them an old civilization. They purposfully added the "paradox" or "riddle" of their rapid advancement that you complain about to the Tau Background as a little "mystery" to fuel some grimdark speculation that would be different to "the just evolved like any other civilization".

Ledabot wrote:
IvanTih wrote:
ChaosGalvatron wrote:
Maybe the Tau represent just how much trouble the imperium is in. They cant even wipe out these jerks. Back in the Great Crusade days the Tau would have been a blip. heck most of the mentioned troublesome compliances in the HH series would have a tech level as good as the tau.
the only reason the tau matter is because they have a codex. in universe they should be irrelevant.


The Imperium isn't in such trouble.
They steamroll Tau,but they won't because they have better things to do,but if Tau continiue to expand then the Imperium will send a crusade(Sabbath Worlds crusade had 10,000 ships,imagine Tau facing that).


Thats right. both of you. the imperium could steamroll the tau, but they cant afford to. removing recorces on one front to squidge the tau would mean an incersion from another race. they are a perfict example of how limited the imperiums resources are and how bad the're in the poo,

Actually that says how large and important are Tyranid and Chaos incursions.
The Imperium just doesn't care for Tau right now.

have you read about how the T'au actually organize their Empire internally. they are incredibly favorable to T'au over other allies.


when a planet is conquored they immediatly Sterilize all disenting individuals so only those who are loyal to the T'au empire can reproduce.

Non-T'au are treated as 2nd class citizens. they have to work much harder then a T'au in a similer job would have to. they explain it by saying "You must prove your loyalty to the Greater Good"

the T'au use non-t'au soldiers as cannon fodder. Humans, Vespids, and Kroot are all viewed as expendable troops.

the T'au also compress the 4 castes. neither can cross breed with the other and are stuck with doing the jobs in their particular sphere.

IvanTih wrote:

Medium of Death wrote:Where did you get all this from? AFAIK the only thing that is somewhat close to being true is the sterilisation thing. Which is from a videogame, so not actually present in any background material that I am aware of.

Why do people always want to paint the Tau with the same grimdarkness that everything else is soaked in?

Deathwatch RPG.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Medium of Death wrote:Where did you get all this from? AFAIK the only thing that is somewhat close to being true is the sterilisation thing. Which is from a videogame, so not actually present in any background material that I am aware of.

Why do people always want to paint the Tau with the same grimdarkness that everything else is soaked in?

Deathwatch RPG.

What? What they do in Deathwatch?

IvanTih wrote:

Medium of Death wrote:Where did you get all this from? AFAIK the only thing that is somewhat close to being true is the sterilisation thing. Which is from a videogame, so not actually present in any background material that I am aware of.

Why do people always want to paint the Tau with the same grimdarkness that everything else is soaked in?

Deathwatch RPG.

IvanTih wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Medium of Death wrote:Where did you get all this from? AFAIK the only thing that is somewhat close to being true is the sterilisation thing. Which is from a videogame, so not actually present in any background material that I am aware of.

Why do people always want to paint the Tau with the same grimdarkness that everything else is soaked in?

Deathwatch RPG.

What? What they do in Deathwatch?

The Tau in the Jericho Reach region are the closest we've got to a look at what life can be like under the Tau at its worst.

Forced sterilisation, indoctrination camps, people disappear when they express discontent, and either don't reappear, or reappear as brainwashed cheerleaders.

The Tau use subject species as test subjects for dangerous enviroments, rather than risking the lives of Tau, and in one situation are basically firing off ships with subject race pilots into the stellar equivalent of an industrial potato peeler.

Secret labs with Nazi style medical experiments and "psychological" testing as well.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Medium of Death wrote:Where did you get all this from? AFAIK the only thing that is somewhat close to being true is the sterilisation thing. Which is from a videogame, so not actually present in any background material that I am aware of.

Why do people always want to paint the Tau with the same grimdarkness that everything else is soaked in?

Deathwatch RPG.

Gee would that be the same Deathwatch RPG that was made by a company which isn't even a subsidiary of GW? The same Deathwatch RPG that GW has never claimed is official cannon.

And for those who use the Dawn of War games as fluff how do you explain that the differant factions have differant versions of what happened which if you consider it fluff means that all of it happened and by extension none of it did.

I agree that the Tau have a Grim-dark side to them, every race does. But the extent has not officially been shown as there is just not enough official fluff behind them.

And for those who say that the Tau and Imperium are equal in technology it's just the Tau are better at applying it across a wider area then the Imperium. I hate to break it to you but that equals more advanced technology. The ability to miniaturise and diversify your technology requires new processes and new techniques which the Tau have done and is the key to advanced technology. Yes the Imperium miniaturised forms of their technology but they are hardly produced on a mass scale and are often ancient devices. So the Imperium has variants of Bolter shell? ok well with the exception of Rail guns the Tau have moved past solid round projectiles.

Sure the old computers that filled entire rooms can still be called computers the same way that modern day laptops can be called computers. But does that mean that the technology is equal? No.

If you really want to know which race has the best technology it is the Orks simply because they have everyones technology.

Gee would that be the same Deathwatch RPG that was made by a company which isn't even a subsidiary of GW? The same Deathwatch RPG that GW has never claimed is official cannon.

And for those who use the Dawn of War games as fluff how do you explain that the differant factions have differant versions of what happened which if you consider it fluff means that all of it happened and by extension none of it did.

I agree that the Tau have a Grim-dark side to them, every race does. But the extent has not officially been shown as there is just not enough official fluff behind them.

And for those who say that the Tau and Imperium are equal in technology it's just the Tau are better at applying it across a wider area then the Imperium. I hate to break it to you but that equals more advanced technology. The ability to miniaturise and diversify your technology requires new processes and new techniques which the Tau have done and is the key to advanced technology. Yes the Imperium miniaturised forms of their technology but they are hardly produced on a mass scale and are often ancient devices. So the Imperium has variants of Bolter shell? ok well with the exception of Rail guns the Tau have moved past solid round projectiles.

Sure the old computers that filled entire rooms can still be called computers the same way that modern day laptops can be called computers. But does that mean that the technology is equal? No.

If you really want to know which race has the best technology it is the Orks simply because they have everyones technology.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:I understand that, what I am saying is that they are advanced for their age, and their stuff does not seem easy to produce, wwwwwaaaaayyyyy to much personal tech for it to be mass produced like the IoM does. Im on your side haha the Tau are not my favorite army at all. btw mass production is the best when you can get it right. (Like the IoM)

xXSir MontyXx wrote:In comparison to all the other races, no. For the time that they have been a space faring recognized empire by the rest of the 40k universe. They have advanced very quickly, to quickly. This is GW's plan though so its ok, cuz I know any race could plow through them if they felt like it.

ShadowAngel159 wrote:

Ledabot wrote:I still dont understand why people hate tau. everything cant be evil or its a pretty pointless game eh? Tau are supposed to fill the giant gap where the honorable species from every other sci-fi thing ever went.

Honorable? The Tau? I don't think that "Join us or die" is very honorable.

Here's a standard expansion of the Tau Empire:

Tau: Hello, new world! Would you like to join our empire for the Greater Good? We'll treat you as second-rate citizens, use your military as cannon fodder for our superior military and guns, and force you to help us make better technology by taking yours! All for the Greater Good! Would you like to join us?
Planet: No. Go away now.
Tau: Fine... then we'll do this the hard way.
**Tau invasion fleet comes in and takes over. Native population becomes second-rate citizens. Laws for population control take place. Majority of people become labor force. Military becomes cannon fodder for Tau Fire Caste. Any and all useful technology is taken away and used by the Tau for future conquests. All for the "Greater Good."**

Now, I don't know about you, but I don't find socialism (or communism, whatever you want to call it) very honorable. Because that is what the Tau are: Socialists. In Space. They say "Everyone is equal." Here is how it really is: "Everyone is equal. The Tau are just more equal. And the Ethereals are even more equal." Also, their policy for expansion is "Join us or die" pretty much.

Yes, I will admit that the Tau are unified unlike the Imperium, and maybe even a little more advanced than the Imperium (please don't kill me, Imperial fanboys. I'm on your side [sorta]). But NO race in all of 40k is truly honorable. None. Not even the Tau and their so-called "Greater Good." If you say no to what they want from you, they will pick up their rifle and shoot you in between the eyes, just like every other race in all of Warhammer 40,000. All for the "Greater Good."

Citations? Tau codex, Dawn of War (yes I use that as a citation. I consider that game to be fluff) tau ending, various books with the Tau in them (I do not remember specific names so please do not ask me for them), a lot of the Tau Empire fluff.

xXSir MontyXx wrote:Exactly! As i said, they seem very naive of the way the galaxy works. "hey those green fellas over there seem like some good guys, im sure they will help our cause."

"Join us or die" is way better than "Die". Also, people who join the Tau do get some rights and stuff, and usually have a better life than say, a Hive City.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:So does anyone want to provide an official source where it says that the Tau have trouble producing their tech in large numbers or are you guys just going to keep saying it without proof.

Ground combat: We don't know. Again hypervelocity and hypersonic have both been used to describe them, but that just tells us they'd be at least as fast, or faster than modern tank weapons (close to or over several km/s at least.) It could be faster, but I will point out speed is not neccesaril a be all, end-all as far as penetration goes (indeed hypervelocity impacts can introduce the possibility of cratering, which while increasing damage redues penetration and penetration typically matters alot for tank guns.)

In the case of the Hammerhead railgun specifically, it is consistnetly noted to perform better than conventional battle cannon (but not neccesarily Vanquisher cannon, and is ins ome ways outperformed by Earthshakers) and be highly effective at penetrating Russ armor. I tend not to read too deeply into the "punch a hole in and liquify everything inside it" since its quite possible that the physics behind that is unrealistic (we'd be talking a massive shockwave to do it, and prboabl knocking the tank around with some violent accelerations.)

I'm not even going to touch on game mechanics.

Andy Hoare: Like alot of 40K writers, he has his good moments and bad moments. the Rogue trader novels are his bad moments. Basically his version of Soul Drinkers. HE does write decent stuff though (Hunt for Voldorius was mentioned, and he had a hand in the 13th Black Crusade and Tactica Imperialis big books, which were both interesting reading. And he's written some decent short stories like Hunter, Prey.) Graham McNeill has Honsou and "Dead Sky, Black Sun" to his name. Abnett has his own lackluster showings (Legion, Straight Silver, etc.) Goto has Eldar Prophecy (which is to date the worst 40K novel I've read.) and there is of course Ben "liquid plasma" Counter who is consistently hit and miss.

Anyhow, the Rogue Trader novels have their annoyances, but then again lots of novels do (I get tird of Abnett making laser bullet weapons.)

Tau tactics and technology: And in particular how it stacks up to the Imperium, can be summed up in one word. Consistency. That is their big edge ove the Imperium really. It's not so much that they are all-around better, per se (because they aren't), its that they manage to standardize their tech and gear better, and to apply it more consistently. They are more unified, and more focused, and tend not to be as distracted as the Imperium is (partly a result of how they are organized, partly because of their small size, and partly because they're on the ass end of nowhere and tend to only catch the backlash from other major powers conflicts.) Their sensitivity to causalties (much like what the US has with its citizen soldiers) will lead to more upteching (pursuant to tactics and presumably logistics.) Also, your average Fire Warrior is probably more in line with a Storm Trooper, while auxiliaries are either specialists or the more expendable grunts (and aren't neccesarily as well teched, but could be more numerous.) Of course, Guard "quality" varies dramatically as well (logistics, planet of origin, standing/importance of the tithe, etc.)

Tau tech can, I suspect, vary quite a bit in performance, which may account for the variable performance. Tau armor could be upgraded by stronger plates (and thus be as good as flak or better depending on how configured) but this may have drawbacks (greater weight, which reduces mobility.) In some cases the Tau probably want greater protection, but not in all cases.

Pulse weapons probably have similar issues. It is unlikely there is just ONE kind of pulse weapon, any more than there is one kind of assautl rifle, or lasgun, or bolter. (and I mean more than just the "pulse rifle and pulse carbine.) We know pulse rifles as a rule are better than lasguns at least in terms of per shot firepower and range, but that doesn't mean "all around" better. Range will mean that they either behave like a semi-auto rifle (aimed shots) or as a machine gun (spray and pray.)

The former is more along the lines of Tau tactics. Setting may also play a role in firepower (It isn't impossible for a pulse weapon to exceed the destructive output of a bolter, although quanitfying the comparison is a bit complex methinks.) but it needn't apply in all cases (Arguably, it doesn't. hell, Bolter firepower can vary quite a bit on its own, so better has to be reflected in that context as well.)

Tactics wise, again consistecny seems to matter. The Imperium doesnt really have a defined set of tactics despite what some claim (either way) but they embrace a little bit of everything. This is a bit of a problem, since they tend to leave it up to individual commanders to decide, and this can create wildly varying effects (from intelligent fighting to not so intelligent "choke them with our numbers" Brannigan-style.) The Imperium can (to an extent) afford this though, since they are a large, industrious empire. The Tau are industrious, but they aren't numerous, and their tactics must reflect this. I suspect alot of the earlier "codex" thinking I have commented on from the previous Tau Codexes are their version of the "tactica Imperialis/Uplifting Primer/Munitorum guidelines" bits.. basically thats "theoretical" stuff laid down by their adminstration. In practice, like with the Imperium, capability can vary according to the leader they have (Taros illustrates this nicely) since some Commanders clearly are brilliant and others, less so. The "less so" however will beneift from a more consistent (and cautious) doctrine that emphasize mobility and firepower (which their tech base can support, to an extent), so any shortcomings are liekly mitigated (assuming numbers aren't a factor.)

Later stuff to come out so far in 5th edition (Planetstrike and such) have hinted the Tau are proving more willing to adopt their basic tactics (as laid down in earlier codexes) to other concepts - they follow the "abandoning territory no matter what" philosohpy alot less blindly, for example. They still hate static warfare, and probably arne't as good at it, but they will do it if they NEED to (and still incoroprate the elements of their other doctrines if they can.)

You also have to remember that being on the edge of the galaxy, they tend to be hard to reach by many conventional powers and they also face a huge logistical advantage compared to others (say the Imperium, especialyl since the Astronomican problems cropped up with the edges of the Empire.) Supply lines (and information) have often been a problem the Imperium faces in fighting the tau, and location plays a huge role in that.

As an aside, I dont draw any particular significance from stuff about the tau "sterilizing" humans - I now expect the tau to contain their own share of donkey-caves like the Imperium does. The Imperium has good and bad people too.

Lasgun/bolter/Hellgun vs Pulse rifle
The biggest advantages (as far as we know evidence wise) that the Lasguns will have will be reliability and durability, sheer versatility, and [possibly] rate of fire and ammo. The first is a no-brainer, given how easy to build and repair lasguns can be. They also are doubtless easier to train folk on as far as usage and maintenance go. Versatility is not quite so obvious, and refers to the tendency for lasguns to encompass many different variants, to be modular (long las, or las carbines being modified lasguns, as well as long and short barreled lasguns, assault lasguns, etc.) and can have differing performance (power output, range, etc.) by something as simple as changing a barrel and sights (range/accuracy) or powerpack (using hotshots, which even normal lasgun can do.) But lasguns can have variable modes too (wide beam "flamethrower/shotgun" modes, like in Legion, or sustained piercing/cutting/slicing beams, as well as the thermal/explosive modes.) As far as Rate of fire goes? Lasgun ROF form a few shots a sec (uplifting primer) to tens/hundreds of shots a second (Blood Pact, Only in Death and 13th Legion novels, to name a few examples) and I've never heard of pulse weapons matching that. Ammo usage can also vary from as fwe as 40-50 shots per powerpack (depending on setting) to hundreds, whilst I havent heard pulse rifles being much more than the 40-50 shot category (agian setting matters, but still..)

Hellguns by extension ought to share the versatility and ammo/rate of fire advantage. They may be similiar in performance to bolters and pulse weapons though (As I said, it can depend on alot.

Bolters are phyiscal projectiles, so they have explosive eccect with kinetic effects to contend with. This could give them better penetration. (remember Space Marine bolters arguably can be anti-vehicle weapons consistently. I dont think the same can always be said of pulse rifles) Bolters though are basically meant to be fired by power armored troops, so they would lack alot of advantages wielded by anyone else (lacking stocks for one thing, but also targeter sights and similar.) And yes this is ignoring the whole "how bolters work" angle (which is "not how GW envisions them")

Orbital Bombardment While it is a huge asset, I DO have to point out that even if you disregard GT+ firepower for Imperial ships, the energy release of orbital bombardment can do Bad Things to the surface and climate of a planet in the long term. How is it going to effect climate and weather patterns to consistently inject kilotons or megatons of energy via bombardment (which we know the Imperium has done), especially over some of the longer and more protracted ground wars? (Of course that tends to be a central grimdark feature of 40K anyhow and often comes about from overuse of conventional artillery and gas/chemical weapons or bioweapons rather than just nukes. ) But it could still be a cause for concern on some worlds (say, Agri-worlds) but not others (the older and more populous Hive worlds)


Tau in general: I think its worth noting that we can distinguish between in and out universe at least when it comes to Tau "w anking." The tau by themselves are fine. Its the fanboys (And arguably this can include some authors, but then again that can be said of alot of factions in 40K too.. Goto seemed to hte the Eldar for example and there ar always the pro Space Marine authors who can be grating..) Its the fanboys who tend to elicit the most negative reactions when it comes to the tau. Personally I hate tau fanboys, but the tau themselves aren't too bad (tactics masturbation wise they've changed a bit with more recent editions too, which I'll touch on later.)

In universe the Tau surviving can be attributed to luck (which can be tangible, if weird. and it has been hinted tau survival has been deliberately contrived in universe by someone) and the fact they are way out on the ass end of nowhere (and thus either hard for other powers to crush, or end up conflicting with one of the larger powers like the Imperium, who often seem to provide a buffer to the tau.) This is counterbalanced by their combined arrogance and blind adherence to their manifest destin- err Greater Good, coupled with sheer naivety when it comes to the universe at large (Take Chaos for example. I dont know if they've actually admitted Chaos Gods, Chaos, and daemons exist yet. And as we know historically that is a recipe for disaster sooner or later, and the Tau having a minimal presence in the warp cannot wholly mitigate that.)

SanguinaryGuard wrote:Tau is gay because their plasmas dont overheat. The Imperium needs that gak

xXSir MontyXx wrote:
Exactly! As i said, they seem very naive of the way the galaxy works. "hey those green fellas over there seem like some good guys, im sure they will help our cause."

That also happens in Tyranid codex where they throw party for Necrons when they destroy Tyranid ships,then the Necrons proceed to kill every Tau on the planet(can't remember the name right now) and also happens when they give Tau from each cast to this guy as a part of cultural exchange,after that DE kill every Tau and their allies on the planet and after that their bodies are used to form sigils which could be interpret as ALLYOURBASEBELONGTOUS! answer from Vect.

So does anyone want to provide an official source where it says that the Tau have trouble producing their tech in large numbers or are you guys just going to keep saying it without proof

xXSir MontyXx wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:
Exactly! As i said, they seem very naive of the way the galaxy works. "hey those green fellas over there seem like some good guys, im sure they will help our cause."

That also happens in Tyranid codex where they throw party for Necrons when they destroy Tyranid ships,then the Necrons proceed to kill every Tau on the planet(can't remember the name right now) and also happens when they give Tau from each cast to this guy as a part of cultural exchange,after that DE kill every Tau and their allies on the planet and after that their bodies are used to form sigils which could be interpret as ALLYOURBASEBELONGTOUS! answer from Vect.

Are you saying he doesnt look trust worthy, cuz I think quite the opposite