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Yes, that's all well and good, but if you tell mentally ill people to just "get over it" it doesn't work very well.
I know it's fashionable (and has been practically forever) to give out about "bs disorders", but as I said, it's as self inflicted as drink related injuries, sports injuries and so on.
If we want to abandon the mentally ill, fine, but it's not going to be a very nice society to live in.
The truth is more complicated than black and white moral judgements.
There is such a thing as being addicted to food. The feeling of a full stomach is very healing and soothing to some and becomes a full time obsession. WHy do you think babies sleep after a full meal?
Yea but I know ALOT of fat people, hell Im a fat fella myself. I can tell you not 1 of them suffer from a disorder or mental condition. Its simply, I like to eat food. And yes I knew a woman personally that was easily 500pounds or more and she was mentally fit as a fiddle, she just didnt want to stop herself. That was my problem for a long ass time, I just wanted to eat thats all.
The dude was given a second chance (bypass surgery) and totally screwed it up by gaining a bunch of weight again. Sorry, but Im with Peter on this one, cut the dude off and let him float alone on it
I'm not denying the addiction nor am I advocating that such people get told to bugger off by the NHS. All I am saying is it is infuriating to see how these stories crop up in the papers and it seems no-one wants to accept that there is just as much onus on the patient to want to get better and help themselves as there is on the NHS to 'cure' people.
As I said, it seems to me it is all too easy for these people to decry everything else rather than take some responsibility for their own actions.
This guy made a willful act to shove 20k calories into his face. There is no withdrawal from overeating that drives you to seek more food lest you go into DT's, crap yourself, or deplete a neurotransmitter so much that you become clinically insane.
Fattie ate himself into a corner (literally) and is now trying to blame the system that told him a great way to get in shape. Give him disability insurance, and let him live on the same allowance that every other citizen deals with if they are crippled. I'm literally shocked that people think he should be given free care for a condition he himself choose to undertake. Nobody FORCED him to get gastric bypass, nobody FORCED him to eat bacon dipped in butter wrapped in crisco X eleventybillion and gain the weight BACK after that.
This is so far from the realm of socially responsible behavior that I'd honestly like to put a bullet in the guy's temple myself just to save your country the BS. Cost to society of this guy's behavior is absolutely unacceptable.
KingCracker wrote:Yea but I know ALOT of fat people, hell Im a fat fella myself. I can tell you not 1 of them suffer from a disorder or mental condition.
Well, that's the hard question. How do you know that absolutely none of them are addicted? The truth is you don't really know.
KingCracker wrote:Its simply, I like to eat food. And yes I knew a woman personally that was easily 500pounds or more and she was mentally fit as a fiddle, she just didnt want to stop herself. That was my problem for a long ass time, I just wanted to eat thats all.
Sure. And I agree that with most of us our unhealthy eating habits are just bad habits. But there is (at least theoretically) a dividing line between a bad habit and an incredibly self-destructive mental disorder.
KingCracker wrote:The dude was given a second chance (bypass surgery) and totally screwed it up by gaining a bunch of weight again. Sorry, but Im with Peter on this one, cut the dude off and let him float alone on it
These kind of extreme cases always test the boundaries of our tolerance and empathy. Maybe this guy has indeed crossed over the line and no longer worthy of human solace or care. But really, if we believe at all that eating can be an addiction (which at least some doctors seem to do), then the fact that this guy has taken it to such an absurd and self-destructive extreme actually, IMO, makes the idea that he's addicted more credible. Now, that's not to say that I think his lawsuit has merit. That's a separate issue.
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As someone qualified to comment on this via my education and professional experience, I am absolutely denying the comparisson to process addiction to chemical dependency. They are not even in the same ball park. One entails long term development of impulse control as well as intense therapy over a long period of time, the other can be treated in the acute stage by low intensity medical supervision and basic counseling.
These comments apply to the following eating disorders, not "OMG I shove 20k calories in my face PAY FOR ME TO LIVE NOW"
Peter, I agree with you. It's not socially responsible, it's depressing. And Filbert, I agree with you, he is pathetic, and he is engaging in the blame game, and that is disgusting. I absolutely do not think he should be successful in suing the NHS, and I think the NHS spent too much money on him and his care to much too little effect.
Where I don't agree is that we can just say "feth you, it's your own fault, so go die!" Or "Man, he should just stop eating so much and cycle his bike more, or go die!" Maybe I'm unfashionably compassionate, but I feel sorry for people with mental illnesses, even not-very-dramatic ones like eating disorders. I think they need to be looked after so that it doesn't spiral, as it has in this case, and separated from enablers (the carer who was feeding him had to be an enabler). If you do not accept that he was mentally ill, fine, whatever, I don't agree with you. If you do accept it, and still think he deserves to be shot just for getting fat, then I would question your judgement.
Edit: In response to your latest post, I am fine with you disagreeing that it is an "addiction" in the physical sense, however, it is still a destructive behavioural disorder and should be treated as such. It's another form of crazy, and from my perspective, the crazies are to be helped.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/01/08 20:25:14
Where I don't agree is that we can just say "feth you, it's your own fault, so go die!"
Or "Man, he should just stop eating so much and cycle his bike more, or go die!"
Granted. But there must be a cut-off point, no? Or otherwise do we keep funding his lifestyle and treatment for the rest of his life? How is this different to telling a terminal cancer patient they can't have x drug?
I do agree with you there, but it seems to me like his treatment wasn't handled very cost effectively anyway (going on the information I have).
Like, what was the carer doing feeding him so much? Why was that not questioned? Should the carer not have had to track what he was eating? Why did the doctor not refer to an appropriate counsellor? That sort of thing. Mental health provision is almost always underfunded by the public purse, because of the distaste and disgust engendered by those who suffer from it. So maybe there wasn't an available counsellor. But you've still gotta look at all sides of it. I've given up on people in my personal life with addictions who took the piss, so I guess I'm a hypocrite, but I was burned out with no more ability to help them. I'd hope that a national health service could provide more.
You can get mentally addicted to anything. I know people who can't wake up, eat breakfast, go to work, come home, or go to to sleep without pot, but they are some of the first people to tell you, "it's not addictive!"
What causes stuff like this, and that "baby" Jessica 300 lb 5-year-old, is control. Whether self- administered or parentally, where was the control? Do 5 year-olds feed themselves? If the parents are watching, they shouldn't! If the UK's fattest man was bed-ridden, how did he get food?
SoloFalcon1138 wrote:You can get mentally addicted to anything. I know people who can't wake up, eat breakfast, go to work, come home, or go to to sleep without pot, but they are some of the first people to tell you, "it's not addictive!"
Bud, trust me its not the same thing. There are complex chemical reactions in the brain that dictate the state of dependency we term as "addiction". Eating food doesn't cause these reactions in the same degree of intensity, nor in all of the same receptor sites.
Process addiction is not the same as chemical dependency. Habitual behavior patterns can be self reinforcing (herpa derp derp), but they don't have the external pressure of withdrawal as the fundamental underpinning.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wolfun wrote:Did the NHS put a burger in his hand?
No.
Then stop getting bacon grease on the lawsuit!
+1
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Da Boss wrote:
it is still a destructive behavioural disorder and should be treated as such. It's another form of crazy, and from my perspective, the crazies are to be helped.
I totally agree. In this case the most helpful thing that can be done is to make his stupid face stop getting stuffed full of crap that makes him fatter.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/01/08 21:25:57
Peter Wiggin wrote:Also, there is absolutely no mention of "food addiction" anywhere in addiction medicine. Fish Filet =/= light bulb full of meth.
With respect there are people who are addicted to food. Quoting your experience and education as proof of there being no thing doesn't mean there isn't. And, with respect, you need to do some more studying.
How do I know? Saw a patient about 6 months ago who was on mirtazapine and a side effect is increased appetite. He described it as being hungry 24/7 and a consequence he put weight on. 9 months later he was weaned off mirtazapine and then tried to lose the weight but was still eating. He was re-referred to the CPN's in order to address his eating disorder.
Complusive overeating, also known as food addiction, characterised with an obsessive or compulsive relationship to food, does exist and I am slightly disturbed that you advertise yourself as being in the know but miss this. A simple google reveals all you need to know even from from official health sources.
Peter Wiggin wrote:Also, there is absolutely no mention of "food addiction" anywhere in addiction medicine. Fish Filet =/= light bulb full of meth.
With respect there are people who are addicted to food. Quoting your experience and education as proof of there being no thing doesn't mean there isn't. And, with respect, you need to do some more studying.
How do I know? Saw a patient about 6 months ago who was on mirtazapine and a side effect is increased appetite. He described it as being hungry 24/7 and a consequence he put weight on. 9 months later he was weaned off mirtazapine and then tried to lose the weight but was still eating. He was re-referred to the CPN's in order to address his eating disorder.
Complusive overeating, also known as food addiction, characterised with an obsessive or compulsive relationship to food, does exist and I am slightly disturbed that you advertise yourself as being in the know but miss this. A simple google reveals all you need to know even from from official health sources.
With respect to your lack of respect, you clearly have absolutely no background in regards to behavioral pharmacology or the neurological process that is "addiction". Like I said, habitual behavior is not addiction no matter how many times you throw the word at it. Would you like me to elaborate for you?
Peter Wiggin wrote:Also, there is absolutely no mention of "food addiction" anywhere in addiction medicine. Fish Filet =/= light bulb full of meth.
With respect there are people who are addicted to food. Quoting your experience and education as proof of there being no thing doesn't mean there isn't. And, with respect, you need to do some more studying.
How do I know? Saw a patient about 6 months ago who was on mirtazapine and a side effect is increased appetite. He described it as being hungry 24/7 and a consequence he put weight on. 9 months later he was weaned off mirtazapine and then tried to lose the weight but was still eating. He was re-referred to the CPN's in order to address his eating disorder.
Complusive overeating, also known as food addiction, characterised with an obsessive or compulsive relationship to food, does exist and I am slightly disturbed that you advertise yourself as being in the know but miss this. A simple google reveals all you need to know even from from official health sources.
With respect to your lack of respect, you clearly have absolutely no background in regards to behavioral pharmacology or the neurological process that is "addiction". Like I said, habitual behavior is not addiction no matter how many times you throw the word at it. Would you like me to elaborate for you?
Let me sum up:
People can get addicted to stuff, like food, pot, or junk. If people let it get out of hand, they are guilty, not the system, or the fast food companies, or aliens for that matter. Come to terms with your own responsibilities!
As someone who likes to keep myself in shape, I have to say, I have no understanding of how someone can let themselves get into that shape.
But even more so, I don't understand this... unless this man's physiology violates the laws of thermodynamics, then his carers have been having to PLACE INTO HIS HANDS enough food to keep him at that size... Even a body at rest will burn calories. All it takes is to feed him slightly below maintenance for his size and he'll drop the pounds....
So some mind-shatteringly incompetent carer is WILLINGLY handing him the thousands upon thousands of calories that he needs to stay at that weight... Why? Why do they not refuse and simply give him little enough that he loses weight? Why? I cannot, for the life of me, understand...
As for his suing of the NHS. No, just no. If it's not laughed out of court then I'll eat my hat.
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He ate that much, he even got the help of reputable surgeons and other doctors, but because he didn't get the right kind of help, according to him, he deserves to sue? B.S.
Peter Wiggin wrote:With respect to your lack of respect, you clearly have absolutely no background in regards to behavioral pharmacology or the neurological process that is "addiction". Like I said, habitual behavior is not addiction no matter how many times you throw the word at it. Would you like me to elaborate for you?
You have a terrible attitude. How about you get off the ridiculous pedestal you have put yourself on and read? I didn't say habitual.
Just because YOU don't know about it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It is quite arrogant to reply in the disgusting dismissive manner in which you did.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/01/08 22:42:50
Peter Wiggin wrote: Like I said, habitual behavior is not addiction no matter how many times you throw the word at it. Would you like me to elaborate for you?
No one is questioning that. What people are questioning is what can be considered to be addiction or, more broadly, psychological disorder (because, despite what you say, complsive eating is often categorized with things like anorexia), and what can be considered merely habitual.
This isn't just a matter of debate here either. You're happily quoting facts regarding your training in addition medicine, but the truth is that there is no real consensus in the medical community. As with all things connected to the brain, the division between addiction and habituation remain heavily contested to this day.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/01/08 22:26:09
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SoloFalcon1138 wrote:You can get mentally addicted to anything. I know people who can't wake up, eat breakfast, go to work, come home, or go to to sleep without pot, but they are some of the first people to tell you, "it's not addictive!"
You can get 'addicted' to gaming in some form or other.
SoloFalcon1138 wrote:
What causes stuff like this, and that "baby" Jessica 300 lb 5-year-old, is control. Whether self- administered or parentally, where was the control? Do 5 year-olds feed themselves? If the parents are watching, they shouldn't! If the UK's fattest man was bed-ridden, how did he get food?
QFT. That video made me angry. Its not a heart wrenching medical tragedy involving a child, it's a case of child abuse for social workers to investigate. The parents/carers need locking up, and I do mean that literally. No matter the disorder, and she may have a fair few, you cannot put on the pounds if the stodge isn't there. And no its not 'love' to over-indulge, not to that extent.
I met a real fattie, he is very round and 26 stone. That to me is a fattie. He puffs and pants and has problems with stairs, he goes out for four kebabs and two trifles and comes home eats them and feels hungry about two hours later. He is about as fat as he can go and it will kill him fairly soon unless he is careful. I only met him socially the rest of the info I got from his flatmate.
I call him a 'real fattie' because he goes out and gets his own two trifles and four kebabs. However once you are so fat you cant do that, once you cross the 30 stone barrier and cant leave the flat easily, and especially when you exheed 40 stone and cant move, then you are increasingly clearly an abuse victim.
20,000 calories a day. I dont have a car and if I went out and got hold of 60k calories, a standard three days supply, I would have problems getting it home unless they were all Mars bars or something.... Stopping for a maths break.....
Mars bars weigh in at 260calories each, though they are quite small now. That means 231 Mars bars for three days supply. At 58g each, thats still over thirteen kilos
.....ok scratch that. I would still have a problem. I am not going to work it out if the groceries included chips or other 'healthier' stuff. There is no car that he can drive; so if his phone is disabled so he cannot order online, and his carer/wife flatly refused to give him more than 2k calories with five fruit and veggie choices, what could her do about it? Eat the chair?
Seriously we are looking at the wrong source of the problem when weight gets that bad. Allow me to look at a similar problem.
I knew this girl, a nice girl well brought up and a real looker too, but who was cursed with the drink. In order to have an alcoholic in my life I had to have NO booze in the house. This is easy for me because alcohol has no hold on me. I can make a bottle of sherry last for years, and I keep some good wine for a meal, I could forfeit both of those without any real loss. I was ok with that. Likewise someone with Mr Mason in the house would have to keep an empty fridge, or one part filled with healthfoods.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Peter Wiggin wrote:"Behavioral addiction" isn't really accepted as a diagnosis these days. Its been proposed for the DSM-V, but currently things like this are viewed as one of a few things.
1. Genetic disorder, yes some folks have jacked up glands and require medical help.
2. Symptomatic behavior brought on by another diagnosis (IE Somatoform or Anxiety disorders most likely)
3. Impulse control disorders
4. Possible EDNOS 307.50....IE Eating disorder not otherwise specified
I'd hazard to say that this guy falls into the impulse control disorder spectrum, which would require a clinical treatment regimen incorporating counseling for the behavioral aspect, and DIET WITH EXERCISE for the physical portion.
Gastric bypass is an abomination in my eyes. Right up there with the Vomitoriums of ancient Rome.
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Richr Romans had a room in where a slave would help you vomit up the banquet you just ate so that you could return to dine or go to the next banquet.
While a food resource waste it kept obesity in check and was part of the daily life of those who owned enough to be above subsistence living. In some respects the Romans got it right, at the very least I don't see why Peter Wiggin finds it an abomination. Its a bit late to get bleeding heart about children going hungry below the forum steps and as far as the excesses of wealth go, eating enough for three or four people is a burden society can afford. especially compared to the utter waste that surrounds our supermarket society and global food logistics.
Puking your meal up is five minutes of misery, for that you can return to your couch and enjoy an hour of good wine cheer and feasting. Romans partied hard but put more practical thought into it than perhaps we do.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
I'll give my simple solution to the problem. STOP PAYING BENEFITS!!!!!
No benefits = No Money = Unable to actually buy the food in the first place = Have to get a job to get money = excersise.
Simples
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Oh, that's GENIUS! And then, when all the folks on welfare can't find work, begin to starve, and then are forced to beg, steal, attack others, or die in the streets, we'll be SORTED!
Da Boss wrote:Oh, that's GENIUS! And then, when all the folks on welfare can't find work, begin to starve, and then are forced to beg, steal, attack others, or die in the streets, we'll be SORTED!
I'm glad we agree, although I never thought of myself a genius. I hope he wins his case, he's well within his rights to sue the Government. It was the Government who provided the funds to enable him to feed himself to oblivion. If the Government hadn't given him a free life on benefits, he couldn't have done this to himself.
Simples.
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