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Henners91 wrote:Here's my ruleset:

Profile: N/A

Rules:
Emprah: Everything on the table dies.

Points cost: 1 More than the game threshold.

Can we just sticky that?

It seems to sum up all of the attempts to make stats for "Teh Emprah!!!!!11!!one!1".

@Henners91:
Ok, Andy, work your magic and make it happen

ChrisWWII wrote:He is simply so ridiculouslly powerful that he becomes an 'I win' button for whatever side controls him. It's not really possible to create a 'fair' living god character.

Except nothing in the background material suggests he had that level of power while he was up and about. Whether or not he has that power now is not what we're talking about, since he's either become a Chaos God or a corpse (depending on which side of that argument you're on).

He simply never did anything in the background material to suggest he's got army destroying powers. The only time he actually shows up in a direct conflict against anything except his gene-encoded slaves, he's nearly killed by an Ork.

Except in the background, we KNOW he has the power to control the Astronomicon, maintain the human built sections of the Webway, etc. etc. and your proposal that he has somehow gained power during his internment in the Golden Throne also has no fluff precedent, nor does your previous claim that the Emperor was weaker than most Farseers.

He's called the God-Emperor for a reason.

DarknessEternal wrote:

ChrisWWII wrote:He is simply so ridiculouslly powerful that he becomes an 'I win' button for whatever side controls him. It's not really possible to create a 'fair' living god character.

Except nothing in the background material suggests he had that level of power while he was up and about.

Except for the examples that have been pointed out to you in this thread you mean?

ChrisWWII wrote:Except in the background, we KNOW he has the power to control the Astronomicon, maintain the human built sections of the Webway, etc. etc. and your proposal that he has somehow gained power during his internment in the Golden Throne also has no fluff precedent, nor does your previous claim that the Emperor was weaker than most Farseers.

He built a device to run the Astronomicon. He built a device to create and access a Webway. Devices that run even without his involvement. His scientific knowledge is well precedented. None of it implies anything about army-destroying psychic powers.

By your logic, a tech-priest is more powerful than every Space Marine if he can build a plasma gun.

Monster Rain wrote:
Except for the examples that have been pointed out to you in this thread you mean?

There haven't been any yet.

I think one major mistake all of you are making is making his fluff rules necessarily represented on the tabletop. If you look at the fluff for any ultimate leaders of any army they look practically invincible. However they can have models representing their power in a scaled fashion.

DarknessEternal wrote:

Monster Rain wrote:
Except for the examples that have been pointed out to you in this thread you mean?

There haven't been any yet.

Bwahaha.

CajunMan wrote:

Hahahaha, no, no chance, not ever.

Is there even one occurrence of him doing such in the background? 23 real years of background and he's never done such a thing.

There were legions of titans attacking his palace during the siege of Terra. Wouldn't squashing one or two of those with his mind-bullets been useful? So why didn't he? Because he couldn't.

Magnus destroys titans. Why wouldn't the Emperor be able to? And during the Battle fo Terra, he was busy in the Golden Throne room battling daemons attacking through the hole Magnus made.

That was far out of scope with what his psychic powers actually were capable.

His one great psychic attack was to kill Horus, and it permanently damaged him to do it. The Emperor was many things, but cosmic blaster isn't one of them.

The man made 100,000 SPACE MARINES along with their Primarch kneel with his voice, and made the most powerful psyker after himself (who destroys Titans with his powers) cower away like a dog with his tail between his legs with his gaze. Regarding Horus, the Emperor did not cripple himself with his attack. He was holding back because he wanted to save his son, while Horus ripped his arm off and broke his back. When a space marine(or maybe a custodes) walks in and Horus blasts him apart with his mind, the Emperor sees that Horus is beyond saving and THEN launches his psychic attack, scaring off ALL FOUR CHAOS GODS, and obliterates Horus's soul from existence.

ChrisWWII wrote:The Emperor? Equal to a weak Farseer? The Emperor is probably the strongest psyker EVER born in the material universe. He can single handedly hold off all four of the Chaos Gods, and when he was fighting Horus he was able to completely obliterate Horus's soul. No farseer could do that.

The Emperor is far far stronger than even Eldrad, and could wipe the floor with even the greatest Farseer. The Eldar may be powerful, but none are living Gods like the Emperor is.

Not to mention, we have scant little information about the Emperor's actual battlefield performance except for his fight against Horus, and we know that against Horus he was holding back.....but we do know that he was probably stronger psychically than the Primarchs, and we have some information about how awesome they were. We also know that mere daemons of Chaos like Cherubael were able to destroy even Warlord Titans without breaking a sweat. The Emperor is more powerful than all four Chaos Gods COMBINED....if a simple pawn like Cherubael was able to do such damage, who knows what the Empero could have done?

ChrisWWII wrote:Where's the background material that says the greatest psyker ever born ot the human race was "equal to the weakest Eldar farseer"? I do not believe such a thing existed. Otherwise, if the Emperor was so weak, why didn't Eldrad (the greatest Eldar psyker EVER, and who was alive at the time of the Horus Heresy) step in himself? Surely he'd realize that killing the Emperor and letting all of humanity fall to Chaos would be destructive to the Eldar, and it'd be better for him to NOT almost die.

Not to mention, I have shown how logically, the Emperor simply must (at least) have the power to destroy Titans psychically, and probably has a lot more power than that.

CajunMan wrote:

The onus of proof is on you. Everything I've said has been backed up by actual background material.

.....Show me something that says any Farseer is equal to the Emperor. Have you even read any fluff? The Horus Heresy novels? If Farseers were that good then why did ELDRAD HIMSELF, THE MOST POWERFUL FARSEER not obliterate Fulgrim, a Primarch. Magnus, who we see DESTROYING ELDAR AND ORK TITANS, is helpless against the Emperor's power. One hundred thousand Space Marines of the Word Bearers are helpless against his voice. If farseers were more powerful than that, then why did the Space Marines conquer the galaxy? Why are there any Space Marines alive today? If Farseers could make 100 Chapters of Space Marines helpless, surely a craftworld could lay waste to dozens of chapters with ease. As to his physical prowess, he defeated a few of the Primarchs who wouldn't bow right away, such as Leman Russ and Ferrus Manus.

Science be praised!

DarknessEternal wrote:
He built a device to run the Astronomicon. He built a device to create and access a Webway. Devices that run even without his involvement. His scientific knowledge is well precedented. None of it implies anything about army-destroying psychic powers.

By your logic, a tech-priest is more powerful than every Space Marine if he can build a plasma gun.

Uh...no. He built a device that ALLOWED him to control the Astronomicon, and built a device that allowed him to access the webway. If you notice, the reason the Emperor wasn't on the front lines of the battle for terra, was because (thanks to Magnus's psychic warning attempt) he had to stay seated on the GOlden Throne, using his psychic powers to keep it from opening and letiting a daemonic host loose inside the Imperial Palace itself. When he went to go confront Horus, he had to put Malcador the Sigillite, one of the greatest human psykers at the time on the throne, just to TRY and keep the door closed. By the time the EMperor returned, Malcador had been so weakened by the eeffor needed to JUST KEEP THE GATEWAY CLOSED that he was practically dead.

ANd it depending on what you mean by 'power' a Techpriest definitely has more power than any individual Space Marine technologically because he can build a plasma gun, but he also can not match a Space Marine in different areas of power. However, givent hat I've shown that even the devices the Emperor built needed a psyker of ridiculous strength to operate continuouslly, your point here is moot.

This thread is starting to become similar to a middle-school classroom argument...So the last truly useful post would be the last update to the emperor's statline on pg 2 from punkow.

The punctuation in that last post certainly reminds me of middle-school.

You happy now Monster Rain?

Are we cross?

Surely we wouldn't enter a thread with a comment like yours and be so thin-skinned that a little feedback would get us all upset.

The discussion at the time was relevant to the topic.

Horizon9 wrote:This thread is starting to become similar to a middle-school classroom argument...So the last truly useful post would be the last update to the emperor's statline on pg 2 from punkow.

I would say that this discussion is important, as establishing the Emperor's fluff capabilities is important to establishing his ingame capabilities. It's just like how a Leman Russ is supposed to be a nigh unstoppable battle tank, and thus has AV14, instead of AV10.

Magnus destroyed a titan, not the Emperor.

The Emperor was only a necessary part of the Golden Throne after Magnus broke it (incidently, but punching right through the Emperor's psychic defenses. Magnus also had prescient knowledge of Horus' betrayal and the Emperor was blind to it (along with Eldrad and his crew). There's a case that the Emperor wasn't even as good a psyker as Magnus in those two things).

The Emperor was able to make people he genetically tailored for, and ritualistically indoctrinated, for unswerving loyalty to himself kneel in a non-confrontational situation. In direct combat, he was nearly strangled to death by an ork. He couldn't even make one ork kneel, let alone blow that ork's army into smithereens.

There is simply one single event in which the Emperor was able to use his psychic powers offensively at the level you're describing, and that last act cost him his life.

DarknessEternal wrote:Magnus destroyed a titan, not the Emperor.

And if you read A Thousand Sons, you'd know that the Emperor is a more powerful psyker than Magnus.

Monster Rain wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Magnus destroyed a titan, not the Emperor.

And if you read A Thousand Sons, you'd know that the Emperor is a more powerful psyker than Magnus.

No, I'd know that people said he was a more powerful psyker. What I, nor anyone else, didn't see was any evidence it was true.

So you don't trust the source of the fluff that we are discussing?

The "people" you are referring to are the Emperor himself, and Magnus (who talks about knowing that the Emperor could kill him from the other side of the galaxy). Have you read the book?

Monster Rain wrote:
The "people" you are referring to are the Emperor himself, and Magnus (who talks about knowing that the Emperor could kill him from the other side of the galaxy). Have you read the book?

Right, captain arrogance himself and his loyal slave. No, I trust what neither of them "say". I'd trust absolutely anything that either "did".

If the Emperor could kill someone from the other side of the galaxy, how come he never once did so?

Ah, so you are trolling.

Just for those who are watching at home, I'm going to point out that Magnus was a traitor Primarch and at that time that he talks about the Emperor's psychic prowess he had already made the switch.

His not being killed by the Emperor from across the galaxy after he became a traitor is exactly the evidence to which I refer.

If you can find even one case of the Emperor using his psychic powers on an army-wide destructive level, feel free to PM me. Otherwise I'm checking out of the thread as it's devolved to the point of propaganda.

You have to say it is a strange thing.

If the Emporer was able to use his space magic to destroy one of his most powerful enemies, why didn't he?

The same reason he held back against Horus, I guess.

Whatever that was.

ChrisWWII wrote:He's called the God-Emperor for a reason.

Yeah, blind fanatism.

I'd believe that the Emperor probably didn't want to believe what was happening, and couldn't believe that his own sons had turned against him. That, and Magnus was probably unaware of the Webway project, which is why he sent the message in the first place...I'm guessing alot of the Emperor's strength had to go into closing and sealing the portal, which could explain why he never used his powers over long distances during the Heresy.

Thena gain, almost every psychic power we've seen both in-game and in fluff requires LoS...so maybe Mangus was just being over panicky.

Magnus destroyed a titan, not the Emperor.

Yea...and the Emperor's [i]gaze[i] made Magnus, a titan killer, locked to his seat unable to do anything.

The Emperor was only a necessary part of the Golden Throne after Magnus broke it (incidently, but punching right through the Emperor's psychic defenses. Magnus also had prescient knowledge of Horus' betrayal and the Emperor was blind to it (along with Eldrad and his crew). There's a case that the Emperor wasn't even as good a psyker as Magnus in those two things).

Magnus had knowledge because the Daemon told him, IIRC. To show Magnus that the best of them had fallen. Daemons hate the Emperor, why would they tell him? As to Magnus punching through the Emperor's defense, it took all his own power, all his Legion's psykers, AND thousands of sacrifices to try to get to the Emperor.

The Emperor was able to make people he genetically tailored for, and ritualistically indoctrinated, for unswerving loyalty to himself kneel in a non-confrontational situation. In direct combat, he was nearly strangled to death by an ork. He couldn't even make one ork kneel, let alone blow that ork's army into smithereens.

Just those he genetically tailored? How about normal human beings going insane by just looking at him. Or going blind. Or the xenos mentioned by Kharn in the World Eaters short story being completely annihilated by the Emperor's power when Perturabo could not beat them. As to the Ork, the the Ork was described as a very large and powerful Warboss, and also Horus says that they saved each other numerous times in the early Crusade. And myself or ChrisWWII said anything about the Emperor destroying armies. Our argument stems from you saying he is no more powerful than an Eldar Farseer, which is, quite frankly, ignorant.

There is simply one single event in which the Emperor was able to use his psychic powers offensively at the level you're describing, and that last act cost him his life.

.....After he took it easy on Horus to try and save him. After Horus obliterated the Marine that stepped into the chamber, the Emperor used his power....to chase off ALL OF THE CHAOS GODS AND OBLITERATE HORUS'S SOUL FROM EXISTENCE.

His not being killed by the Emperor from across the galaxy after he became a traitor is exactly the evidence to which I refer.

The Emperor didn't want to kill him from across the galaxy. He wanted Russ to bring him back in chains. Horus manipulated Russ into burning Prospero.

He also didn't want to destroy Horus because he thought he could save him. That's why the Emperor told the Assassin temples to stop trying to assassinate Horus.

If you can find even one case of the Emperor using his psychic powers on an army-wide destructive level, feel free to PM me. Otherwise I'm checking out of the thread as it's devolved to the point of propaganda.

Myself or ChrisWWII have made a claim of him destroying armies. Only that he is vastly more powerful than Magnus or Eldrad. Eldrad didn't know Fulgrim was corrupt until he saw him face to face and saw Fulgrim's daemon sword.

Go ahead and leave the thread. That's typical of people on the internet who have nothing to back up their claims. Next time you want to debate something, bring some evidence. Or a decent argument.

Monster Rain wrote:Are we cross?

Surely we wouldn't enter a thread with a comment like yours and be so thin-skinned that a little feedback would get us all upset.

The discussion at the time was relevant to the topic.

We're fine. I just felt that the topic was relevant, as we do need to establish what the emperor is capabl of. I just felt like this thread wasnt making any progress on that because we started to move towards the emperor being a powerful psyker, and then someone jutted in and said that Magnus was better.... At least we can say we've moved past ws10 bs10 train of thought. I still think a ws 6 bs5 s4 t4 w4 i5 a4 sv2/3++ at 600pts is reasonable. Give him a rule similar to sw saga of the warrior born, and maybe not all psychic powers, just sword of sanguines, living lightning, null zone, vortex of doom and something to make opposing models strike at i1. Sorry for the confusion

I do wonder why so few people frequent the Proposed Rules forum?

The reasoning contained within this thread is reason alone me suspects...

List for good emperor rules.

4 powers a turn? Check. Any power from Space marines, blood angels, space wolves, witch hunters, grey knights or imperial guard books? Check. Leadership increasing AoE? Check. 2+/4+ shadowfield? Check. Boatload of rerolls as i mentioned? Check.Toughness/strength above 4? No! (As i mentoned on PAGE 1!) Anything Strength D? No! (unless one shot).

New rule. 'Surrounded by tragedy'
Mortal action will not kill the emperor but those around him perish in their droves or are consumed by infighting. Each time the emperor takes his last unsaved wound do not remove him from play, instead roll a dice on a 2+ you must immediately remove an allied, non superheavy, unit from the board. On the roll of a 1 the, non superheavy, unit to be removed is chosen by the opponent.