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MeanGreenStompa wrote:

You beat me to it.

US players use the store tables and don't set up clubs or seem to play at home so much, which, when you consider how much more room folks in the US have for this sort of thing (large basements/spare rooms/attic space) seems odd.

The OP is from Either Oz or NZ though according to his flag, so Im unsure on how folks there do their gaming.

It depends on the area really. I've looked into finding space for the club to play that isn't in a local store (and thus, subject to local store space and hours matching up with our schedules), and the cost is pretty heavy for a full days rental. I imagine that is part of it. Another thing is that while we may have more room, we're also more spread out. So a trip to a local store may take 20 minutes, but driving to one of our club members house who have those things mentioned may take 45 minutes.

Either way, I think the rules could be reasonable, though requiring each player to have a rulebook is kind of a meh thing. Codex sure, dice and templates, sure. Even proxies can be annoying at times (as has been pointed out already). But a shared rulebook? Doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

Frazzled wrote:They don't have to. they do what the they want. Its their ing tables.

Sure. But at that point, why the feth have them?

Sooooo, they're a store, that's trying to sell things, and is asking that you come prepared? Wow... I can't believe someone is complaining that their GW store hasn't turned into a library yet...

I agree with the OP.

it's just a game. I dont see why people have to be so uptight.

Bit puzzled by the proxy rule.
Doesn't proxying allow players to "test drive" units and armies they subsequently might buy, or help choose an army with a play style they feel good with?

I can see a counter argument that some people will just proxy ad infinitum.

The other points, it's GW whaddaya expect
Only joshing...
they don't seem unreasonable as already said.

I think the rules are fair, and will likely change when someone replaces the manager for that store anyway. Then again when that one is replaced, it just seems to be how they go. Don't like it; don't go and a new one quickly takes the place or they don't even care and go on like normal without you.

Manchu wrote:

j_p_chess wrote:3. I personally am extremely angry with lame ass people that say they can't afford x/y but can have a expensive smart phone, roll up in a Luxury car and say they can not buy a rulebook. (like the mom and pop I work for, bouncing checks when they have expensive toys).

I did think this when OP mentoned an iPad. But I guess it's a convenience thing rather than a cannot afford thing.

You'd think so.
Depending on the course it would be a complete waste of money as he could easily go get a second hand laptop for $50ish if money is such a problem.
40k can wait, they should really be studying more.


I'm agreeing with Frazzled here. They get targets they have to meet, they meet them it's alright, if they don't they're gone. That's just the way the hell that is retail is.
That being said I do buy a majority of my stuff from Maelstrom as well, but that was more for a lack of a FLGS and having two nearby GWs (one was good and I buy stuff from occasionally, the other crap and haven't been there for quite a while now).

Now that a FLGS has finally opened up around here though I've decided to try to split it half and half.

It seems to me as an uncreative selling tactic, I know my local manager well and he's extremely relaxed about stuff like this.

To me they all seem fair. I doubt that the shop was bothered about the minis, so much as using the old OOP Codex which is out of date. The intension was probably to get them to purchase the new 'improved' and fith editioned codex.

To be fair, it's not a free playground. Abide by the rules and fun can be had. I used to have a great time playing at one of my older haunts, Darlington GW, same as I do now at WHW. It's all about attitude and approach.

I don't understand why GW would be this way.

You are already paying out of your rectum for an extremely overpriced hobby. The least they can do is have a friendly environment with good boards, terrain, templates, and store copies of codexes and dice that you can use.

I would actually be more encouraged to buy models if the atmosphere was nice instead of being gouged left and right by strict and unnecessary rules.

I agree with the OP. Too many depressed, socially maladjusted nerds play warhammer. You should play for fun and there should be no problem supplying a player with a necessity like a codex or some dice if they are lacking.

Hurrdurr2000 wrote:1) You don't have your own rulebook on your person
2) You don't have the specific codex for the army you are playing on your person
3) You don't bring your own templates, markers and dice
4) You proxy more than 10% of your models

1 & 2) - not having pirated books and codexes is a good thing. Not to mention they're probably fed up of dealing with disputes involving either lack of books or downloaded PDFs with changes to the stats and rules.... I won't play anyone that doesn't have their codex.

3) Is there enough templates and dice for every table? If not then people should be bringing them.

4) Sounds good to me, I hate proxy models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Avatar 720 wrote:On a side-note, what if you've memorised your codex? I've owned my Chaos and Tau codices long enough to know how many points each individual part of my army costs and what it does, and it's getting to that point with my fantasy army books.

Can you quote the exact wording for every rule? Because, in the event of a conflict with another rule, that's what would be required. Not your memory of what the rule does.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hurrdurr2000 wrote:Anywho, regardles; I don't know if the attendant was just in a gakky mood or if he was legitimately upset that I'm using the oldschool DE models that aren't PRECISELY WYSIWYG.

(Granted, I didn't have the new codex and I was using 1500 points worth of old models - but hey! I wanted to get a flavour for the way the new army works)

I was politely asked to quickly end my game.

You were playing dark eldar without a codex (in violation of the rule they'd made you aware of) and you think his problem was with the models?

redguardsman wrote:I don't understand why GW would be this way.

You are already paying out of your rectum for an extremely overpriced hobby. The least they can do is have a friendly environment with good boards, terrain, templates, and store copies of codexes and dice that you can use.

I would actually be more encouraged to buy models if the atmosphere was nice instead of being gouged left and right by strict and unnecessary rules.

I agree with the OP. Too many depressed, socially maladjusted nerds play warhammer. You should play for fun and there should be no problem supplying a player with a necessity like a codex or some dice if they are lacking.

The problem is that when you have to supply 10 players with codicies, dice and templates. Or don't really have the capacity to supply them all and fights and/or moaning break out between the 'cause someone's hogging all the dice/template/your codex.

GW employees are there to sell, not to counsel 25 year olds having a hissyfit because of *whatever*

As stated earlier in the thread, the tables are there as a marketing tool.

They aren't 'open' tables though - that's the whole point. They are provided by GW for the express purpose of selling product - no more, no less. They aren't provided because GW are so caring, sharing or because they think you are an all-round good egg; they want to sell models and the tables are a means to that end.

I disagree with the OP. Too many depressed, socially inept bums without jobs play warhams. You should play for fun and there should be no problem supplying your own codex or dice. That would perhaps let us with a modest discretionary income buy stuff without wading through a nerdherd trying to exchange their food coupons for a blister.

Wow. This thread... really? 1, 2, and 3 are reasonable? My BF and I share a rulebook. They cost 60 bucks. We share dice, because we don't need 12,000 f'ing dice. We use one set of templates, because by jove, we don't need 12,000 f'ing templates. Honestly, I think that the proxy rule is the MOST reasonable, because they are trying to sell MODELS. They are not making their cash flow off of rulebooks, templates, and dice.

Seeing as this guy comes from Australia, I can see his point. GW won't allow him to play because he bought his models from overseas, where HE CAN ACTUALLY AFFORD TO PLAY?

Seems like GW might be implementing this policy in a desperate attempt to get more cashflow in Australia. If only they knew...

thebaroness wrote:Wow. This thread... really? 1, 2, and 3 are reasonable? My BF and I share a rulebook. They cost 60 bucks. We share dice, because we don't need 12,000 f'ing dice. We use one set of templates, because by jove, we don't need 12,000 f'ing templates. Honestly, I think that the proxy rule is the MOST reasonable, because they are trying to sell MODELS. They are not making their cash flow off of rulebooks, templates, and dice.

They are reasonable. Though I understand your point to an extent and the manager would have to be a tightwad to insist couples have duplicate equipment

you only need 10 dice and the scatter/artillery dice per table.
Unless you are superstitious/OCD and won't borrow the oppo's. Or they could be I guess, miserable git. Wouldn't play with him again.
Templates: you must have one set between you , likewise oppo presumably would.
Same with books. Do you and BF play same armies. Really can see that as a bone of contention in this context and agin it would be unreasonable to say a couple should have a codex each.
I am not suggesting that is how I would run a store btw. Just that I understand there are players that may be pushing things and the manager may be cheesed off with it.

Having said that if I had an iPad I would be tempted to have PDF files on it rather than risk my army book been ravaged by other players. Grubby handed gits not taking care of my books! B'tards!!

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:
Having said that if I had an iPad I would be tempted to have PDF files on it rather than risk my army book been ravaged by other players. Grubby handed gits not taking care of my books! B'tards!!

You'd rather risk the $500 iPad than $30 armybook? That's the spirit!

years ago, when mum took me down to the store they said: " heyman, if you love this game, once you buy the rulebook you can decide on an army, pick a codex and we'll let you stay here with us for the day, but you have to make sure you learn the rules!"

nevertheless, i never bought the $80 rulebook because i never saw why i should if i can get it online for free. They still let me stay at the store as long as i wanted while mum was off in myer or david jones. the dudes i hung out with were awesome, but i'm not sure if they're still there anymore..... but still, i sat there for a few days during summer holidays painting models and looking at boards untill one day, as i was about to walk into the store (luckily i didn't have any stuff with me ) i met a girl. we didn't stay together for long (i never really liked her lol) but still, meeting her lead me to believe there were other girls out there, and so began my two yeaars of chasing girls i haven't been to GW since, but i have recently gotten back into the hobby and i may go there tomorrow

i really hope the store i used to go to is still really fun to be in ..

Brunius wrote:Seeing as this guy comes from Australia, I can see his point. GW won't allow him to play because he bought his models from overseas, where HE CAN ACTUALLY AFFORD TO PLAY?

Seems like GW might be implementing this policy in a desperate attempt to get more cashflow in Australia. If only they knew...

Buying from GW.

40k
40k BRB $96 (or you can get AoBR for $150 and get it from there)
Templates $14 (or from AoBR)
Dice $13
Codices range from $33 (Black Templars) to $50 (Space Marines) the majority are $48.

Total without AoBR $173
With AoBR $213

WHFB
WHFB BRB $124 (or IoB $165)
Armybooks $48 (except the new O&G one for $62)

Total without IoB $199
With IoB $213

Thus you can see where all the complaints come from and the suggestions for Maelstrom and other online stores.

Avatar 720 wrote:On a side-note, what if you've memorised your codex? I've owned my Chaos and Tau codices long enough to know how many points each individual part of my army costs and what it does, and it's getting to that point with my fantasy army books.

I'm not saying I should be allowed to spring all that on a player who calls BS because it sounds overpowered (defending the Lash or a Railgun against a newbie or skeptical player without a point of reference would be hard), but vs your friends whom you have played umpteen times before and you both know each other's codices back to front, I don't see the issue; would the store still kick you out in that circumstance?

And what if you memorized something incorrectly and your opponent called you on it? C'mon, get real!

redguardsman wrote:I don't understand why GW would be this way.

You are already paying out of your rectum for an extremely overpriced hobby. The least they can do is have a friendly environment with good boards, terrain, templates, and store copies of codexes and dice that you can use.

I would actually be more encouraged to buy models if the atmosphere was nice instead of being gouged left and right by strict and unnecessary rules.

I agree with the OP. Too many depressed, socially maladjusted nerds play warhammer. You should play for fun and there should be no problem supplying a player with a necessity like a codex or some dice if they are lacking.

Surely the point is that if you turn up without rules, codex, templates, or models, you haven't paid a penny for your hobby.

The shop is not a youth club.

Proxying is all right if it's done within reasonable limits. Some people may be taking the piss.

Seems like Gw is starting to crack down just latly

My local store hear in the u.k has just shut our games room till further notice (6 buitiful gaming tables with scenery etc just sitting there collecting dust) there reasining however warpped is that sales are down and until they pick up the games room is shut.

now to me this has had the oposite effect as although i still go in a couple of times a month to paint etc (i used to go every week for about 5 hours on a thursday) i have also noticed that over 50% of the regulars have disapeared and thus they are never going to boost sales by pushing people away

now i do not by any major purchase from the store (they all go to web stores wich can sell the same thing up to 20% cheaper and still make a profit don't get me started on that subjuect) but i will usualy buy little bits when i am in like paint etc

all they have done is pushed us veteran (18 years now including 2 a s a staff member in the good old days) away

however on the posative side it has pushed me into a course of action that i have been threatning for a year or so now and that is to set up and run my own gaming club at my local youth centre (which i also run as i am a youth worker for my sins LOL) it will start on 6th april with all invited and no silly rules (just sencible ones) anyone in the north wales area or chester and surounding areas contact me for details

well thats the soap box rant out of my system for another week LOL

happy gaming all and chin up we still have a fantastic hobby

Hurrdurr2000 wrote:

My friends and I often will use an iPad or laptop to view a rulebook, or our own summaries of the rules for quick reference etc.

Edit: Wine+spelling.... PHWOAR!!

I don't see any of that as particularly unreasonable to be honest. I don't know if you have scanned in the rulebooks yourself but even if you have it is going to look to others like you may have pirated them. This does happen to be "stealing" so why would you expect the company that actually sells the items to let you get away with that?

I'm not getting up on a soap box here because I have certainly downloaded more then my fair share of GW rules off the internet but I don't ever expect to go into a gaming store (GW or not) and wip them out and use them.

sbu wrote:now i do not by any major purchase from the store (they all go to web stores wich can sell the same thing up to 20% cheaper and still make a profit don't get me started on that subjuect) but i will usualy buy little bits when i am in like paint etc

Then why should they pay rent on gaming space if you never buy from them?

The web stores dont have brick and mortar costs and don't have to provide gaming spaces for entitled parasites so of course they can make a profit with 20% cheaper. If you want a gaming space then you might need to accept the 20% increase to fund the game space or maybe you should pay to play in order to justify the store owner's cost output to give time, tables and space for you to place.

It sounds like if you don't know how basic economy works after 18 years of mooching, then he made a great decision throwing you out into the street. I hope you lose tons of time and money making your own gaming center because entitled selfish gamers think they should get everything for free and your effort is worthless and has no value. Gaming clubs are not cheap and neither are maintaining tables and terrain.

Those rules are still relatively lax from what I've seen. One GW store from many years back said that:

1.) no Non-GW items on their tables (including lucky charms, cellphones, and other such nicknacks).
2.) no proxying whatsoever. Your models also must be painted with at least 3 colors, with no original plastic grey or pewter metal showing. They also must conform to WYSIWYG exactly.
3.) Bring everything yourself. That includes rulebook, templates, dice and rulers.

thebaroness wrote:Wow. This thread... really? 1, 2, and 3 are reasonable? My BF and I share a rulebook. They cost 60 bucks. We share dice, because we don't need 12,000 f'ing dice. We use one set of templates, because by jove, we don't need 12,000 f'ing templates. Honestly, I think that the proxy rule is the MOST reasonable, because they are trying to sell MODELS. They are not making their cash flow off of rulebooks, templates, and dice.

Do you never play anyone other than each other?

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:On a side-note, what if you've memorised your codex? I've owned my Chaos and Tau codices long enough to know how many points each individual part of my army costs and what it does, and it's getting to that point with my fantasy army books.

I'm not saying I should be allowed to spring all that on a player who calls BS because it sounds overpowered (defending the Lash or a Railgun against a newbie or skeptical player without a point of reference would be hard), but vs your friends whom you have played umpteen times before and you both know each other's codices back to front, I don't see the issue; would the store still kick you out in that circumstance?

And what if you memorized something incorrectly and your opponent called you on it?

...that would mean I haven't memorised it. Memorising something is remembering what it is/does etc. so, if I get part of it wrong, then I obviously have not memorised it.

As for my opponent calling me on it, read my post again, namely the bit I bolded. If we both knew each others codex and we'd played each other lots of times before, then there would be nothing to call out on, as you would know what your opponent knew and vice versa.

C'mon, get real!

I find this quite innappropriate; was it really necessary?

sbu wrote:Seems like Gw is starting to crack down just latly

My local store hear in the u.k has just shut our games room till further notice (6 buitiful gaming tables with scenery etc just sitting there collecting dust) there reasining however warpped is that sales are down and until they pick up the games room is shut.

now to me this has had the oposite effect as although i still go in a couple of times a month to paint etc (i used to go every week for about 5 hours on a thursday) i have also noticed that over 50% of the regulars have disapeared and thus they are never going to boost sales by pushing people away

now i do not by any major purchase from the store (they all go to web stores wich can sell the same thing up to 20% cheaper and still make a profit don't get me started on that subjuect) but i will usualy buy little bits when i am in like paint etc

all they have done is pushed us veteran (18 years now including 2 a s a staff member in the good old days) away

however on the posative side it has pushed me into a course of action that i have been threatning for a year or so now and that is to set up and run my own gaming club at my local youth centre (which i also run as i am a youth worker for my sins LOL) it will start on 6th april with all invited and no silly rules (just sencible ones) anyone in the north wales area or chester and surounding areas contact me for details

well thats the soap box rant out of my system for another week LOL

happy gaming all and chin up we still have a fantastic hobby

So, if you make no contributions to your hobby store, should you be complaining that it has restricted access to its built-in loiterer's area?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Avatar 720 wrote:

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:

Avatar 720 wrote:On a side-note, what if you've memorised your codex? I've owned my Chaos and Tau codices long enough to know how many points each individual part of my army costs and what it does, and it's getting to that point with my fantasy army books.

I'm not saying I should be allowed to spring all that on a player who calls BS because it sounds overpowered (defending the Lash or a Railgun against a newbie or skeptical player without a point of reference would be hard), but vs your friends whom you have played umpteen times before and you both know each other's codices back to front, I don't see the issue; would the store still kick you out in that circumstance?

And what if you memorized something incorrectly and your opponent called you on it?

...that would mean I haven't memorised it. Memorising something is remembering what it is/does etc. so, if I get part of it wrong, then I obviously have not memorised it.

As for my opponent calling me on it, read my post again, namely the bit I bolded. If we both knew each others codex and we'd played each other lots of times before, then there would be nothing to call out on, as you would know what your opponent knew and vice versa.

C'mon, get real!

I find this quite innappropriate; was it really necessary?

Yes it was. People who can't show up prepared to play/work/etc. become rather tedious company. This store is probably tired of its store stock becoming a lending library. The staff is probably tired of becoming referees when two players become elevated in there tone.

This is a game, treat it as such. That being said, come prepared. It is not appropriate to show up without your rulebooks, codexes, templates, etc.

Avatar 720 wrote:...that would mean I haven't memorised it. Memorising something is remembering what it is/does etc. so, if I get part of it wrong, then I obviously have not memorised it.

Remembering what it is/does is not the same as memorising the exact wording which you may well need in the event of a rules conflict. Why is bringing your codex a problem?

Yes it was. People who can't show up prepared to play/work/etc. become rather tedious company. This store is probably tired of its store stock becoming a lending library. The staff is probably tired of becoming referees when two players become elevated in there tone.

This is a game, treat it as such. That being said, come prepared. It is not appropriate to show up without your rulebooks, codexes, templates, etc.

Do you know what else is tedious? People not reading the whole post before they reply.

me wrote:read my post again, namely the bit I bolded.

Remembering what it is/does is not the same as memorising the exact wording which you may well need in the event of a rules conflict. Why is bringing your codex a problem?

You're bringing my reply out of context; I was replying to the secnario of having memorising something incorrectly.

As for bringing the codex being a problem; you're putting words into my mouth there, as I never said it was a problem, I simply brought memorising the codex up as a possibility.

I can sum up the problems of this entire thread in one ancient military secret: KISS .

People complain about the state of the hobby, too expensive, stores imposing draconian rules, etc. Does no one see the root of these events is probably *gasp* them?
"I memorize my codex, releiving me of carrying a 6 oz book into my store" Really? You have committed that much to memory? Or are you simply trying to play the Devil's advocate for a futile cause?
"I have proxied over 10% of my army, they're jerks for not letting me in" Or are they jerks for trying to avoid the inevitable arguments caused my the magic shape-changing troops?
"Why does the store not provide templates, dice, and whatnot when I come in to play?" Why don't they supply you a tournament ready army, too?

The answer to many of these questions is in the power of the players. You want the customer service to get better? Then become a customer, not a freeloader!

"I memorize my codex, releiving me of carrying a 6 oz book into my store" Really? You have committed that much to memory? Or are you simply trying to play the Devil's advocate for a futile cause?

Assuming you're replying to me here (since i'm the only one who's brought it up as a possibilty so far), may I ask you where I said i'd memorised it in order to save weight? All you've done is mis-quoted me to try and prove a point.

What I did bring up (and what you keep failing to understand) is the possbility of it being done. I studied drama for over 5 years, and had to memorise a lot of stuff in short amounts of time; naturally, this became second nature, and I started doing it with other things.

My point that I have been trying to make: What if a group of people who play each other (this was the bolded part that you ignored) did just that, memorised their codices because they'd played that army for a long time/played against it for a long time?

Next time, if you want to quote me, please do it with my actual words, otherwise try and paraphrase and avoid adding in bits that were not originally there.