GW Stores going too far?

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**nels1031**

Hurrdurr2000 wrote:So this has made me finally decide to break my long standing silence on these forums.

My local GW store has recently made a few changes to the rules of being able to use their facilities. The local store has about a dozen gaming tables out the back (all decked out with terrain god bless them). Being a uni student, I'm also blessed with the ability to go in and play during the week when it's relatively quiet - however despite playing at the store purely for the off chance that I'll make a random purchase in order to continue supporting their business (most of my models are maelstrom bought) I'm considering relocating my gaming to a far more convenient (and friendlier and just as well equipped) comic book and hobby store.

A friend of mine informed me this evening after attending the regular Friday night gaming session that you are no loner welcome to play at the GW store if:

1) You don't have your own rulebook on your person
2) You don't have the specific codex for the army you are playing on your person
3) You don't bring your own templates, markers and dice
4) You proxy more than 10% of your models

My friends and I often will use an iPad or laptop to view a rulebook, or our own summaries of the rules for quick reference etc.

Up until tonight the GW store has offered up their own (battered and old) templates and blast markers for lend.

Up until tonight they haven't cared if you wanted to try out a few new models and proxy in a few units to see how things work - or even an entire army just so you can get the feel for it!

I can't help but feel this is some kind of GW wide initiative to drive sales and force people who want to play to spend more of their money in store. I'm also curious if anyone else has similar stories from their local GW stores. Please let me know what you think.

My apologies for the wall of text - I hope it doesn't crit too hard. Half a bag of wine was half the influence behind this thread.

Hurr.

Edit: Wine+spelling.... PHWOAR!!

These threads pop up from time to time, not as often as White Dwarf and pricing threads, but fairly regularly. Every time, I can find little to sympathize with*.

I've been playing in GW stores for the better part of 20 years and I can honestly say that I've never had a redshirt (or blackshirt, back when they were more common) have to tell me the rules of their store. I always did what was, in my mind, respectful and exhibited the most common sense and I got along well with the staff, even during my short stint playing at the GW in Nuremberg, Germany in the early 2000s (and my german sucks). I see nothing wrong with the 4 points that you are complaining about, but that may be because I've always assumed they were the rules.

*The half a bag of wine is genuinely sad though, most of the bums I see in Baltimore are drinking better then you. Also... wine? In College? I guess thats a cultural thing. In the US its kegs and cases of (cheap)beer at our parties/binges. Wine is for church/holidays and Europeans. At least in my family culture.

**Manchu**

NELS1031 wrote:Wine is for church/holidays and Europeans.

That's hilarious.

**MudgeBlack**

I have to say that most of that sounds pretty reasonable. Our FLGSl tourneys require all of the same things. Like others have said #4 sounds a little out of line but it depends on what, why and how often people are proxying. The issue with OOP DE is WAY off in my opinion, they are still GW. But you can vote with your feet, go where you feel comfortable.

**Nu11nV01D**

Well, I think the real answer has to tow both lines a little bit.

These GW stores are a business. It sort-of IS like bringing a big mac into an Italian joint, enjoying their water and breadsticks and not leaving a tip. Also, saying that, I work at a restaurant and I've literally had a woman hand me a tv dinner and tell me to go microwave it for her. But that's a little off topic.

I think everyone can agree that buying books/dice/etc. isn't that big a deal. Compared to fielding a fully painted army, acquiring that other stuff is a walk in the park for your checkbook.

Proxying also gets wayyyy out of hand sometimes, and I can understand why, especially if people complained, the store would have to crack down. 10% is a little strict but I, myself, pretty much just proxy flamers as melta for my IG and chainswords for power weapons. That's about as far as it gets, which would probably be within 10%.

Anyhow, the point I'm making is most people probably wouldn't be angry if this GW store kept their demands reasonable while trying to propagate gaming good will. I'd love a GW store with cheap merchandise, well-built tables as far as the eyes can see, and proxies galore, but you can't pay the bills with a store full of freeloaders.

So I agree with the store and the poster, in a way.

P.S.- although whoever told that guy to quickly finish his game with OOP dark eldar is out of line. They are, or once were, 100% GW Models, so that guy can blow. I doubt everybody who pain-stakingly crafted their own Storm Raven or Drop Pod would be pretty miffed if they were told to upgrade. Hell, I don't even know how that guy would want me to make Rough Riders. Pretty sure they're OOP all around, so what would he say?

**oni**

My question is... How do they know you 'forgot' to bring your rulebook and/or codex? Do you have to present them at the door before you can enter?

**Balance**

It does seem like a difficult-to-enforce rule. As has been said, i doubt they do a check for Codexes upon entry, and 'subtle' proxies should be hard to notice unless they're spending more time watching games in progress than actually running the store.

**Avatar 720**

On a side-note, what if you've memorised your codex? I've owned my Chaos and Tau codices long enough to know how many points each individual part of my army costs and what it does, and it's getting to that point with my fantasy army books.

I'm not saying I should be allowed to spring all that on a player who calls BS because it sounds overpowered (defending the Lash or a Railgun against a newbie or skeptical player without a point of reference would be hard), but vs your friends whom you have played umpteen times before and you both know each other's codices back to front, I don't see the issue; would the store still kick you out in that circumstance?

**Manchu**

Avatar 720 wrote:On a side-note, what if you've memorised your codex?

What you've stumbled across is a possible rational for these rules. I think we can agree that they are mainly directed at pre-teens and teens. I can only imagine that there are tons of fights about what Billy "TFG" Johnson remembers his units can do -- at least judging by how often this seems to happen among adults.

**Redbeard**

Manchu wrote:I've always wondered if redshirts would try talking this way to an adult not dressed in an Iron Maiden tshirt.

What about an adult in an Iron Maiden t-shirt?

When I started playing, in 2004, there was a rule that you had to have your models painted and based to play in the store, except for a few 'beginner hours' on Saturdays. Boy, do I miss those days. You could go down to the shop, find a pick-up game with an adult opponent and generally play a decent game.

They changed that rule, and now the store is full of nothing but kids with barely or badly painted models. Adults have pretty much stopped gaming and only go in for long enough to make purchases.

**Manchu**

Redbeard wrote:What about an adult in an Iron Maiden t-shirt?

That's why I never wear my Iron Maiden shirts into gaming stores.

**imweasel**

Some of these rules seem quite ridiculous.

What's next? Your models must be painted to 3 color standard using only gw paints?

If you are going to have open gaming tables, have open gaming tables.

If you don't want open gaming tables, charge for them or take them out.

**Manchu**

Renting the tables might preclude the need for any of these rules. But imagine the threads that would go up . . .

**Grot 6**

Hurrdurr2000 wrote:So this has made me finally decide to break my long standing silence on these forums.

My local GW store has recently made a few changes to the rules of being able to use their facilities. The local store has about a dozen gaming tables out the back (all decked out with terrain god bless them). Being a uni student, I'm also blessed with the ability to go in and play during the week when it's relatively quiet - however despite playing at the store purely for the off chance that I'll make a random purchase in order to continue supporting their business (most of my models are maelstrom bought) I'm considering relocating my gaming to a far more convenient (and friendlier and just as well equipped) comic book and hobby store.

A friend of mine informed me this evening after attending the regular Friday night gaming session that you are no loner welcome to play at the GW store if:

1) You don't have your own rulebook on your person
2) You don't have the specific codex for the army you are playing on your person
3) You don't bring your own templates, markers and dice
4) You proxy more than 10% of your models

My friends and I often will use an iPad or laptop to view a rulebook, or our own summaries of the rules for quick reference etc.

Up until tonight the GW store has offered up their own (battered and old) templates and blast markers for lend.

Up until tonight they haven't cared if you wanted to try out a few new models and proxy in a few units to see how things work - or even an entire army just so you can get the feel for it!

I can't help but feel this is some kind of GW wide initiative to drive sales and force people who want to play to spend more of their money in store. I'm also curious if anyone else has similar stories from their local GW stores. Please let me know what you think.

My apologies for the wall of text - I hope it doesn't crit too hard. Half a bag of wine was half the influence behind this thread.

Edit: Wine+spelling.... PHWOAR!!

Hurr.

Dude, seriously...

Drama much? GW doesn't need to snipe you to drive up sales. They're doing fine on thier own.

The old saying still holds true, "You want to play, you gotta pay."
At the very basic, you buy a book, minis, and dice. Agreed upon by players, rule books and templates, but thats beforehand, or by group proxy. No one goes into a store and starts demanding to use thier stuff, not have the stuff to play, so you drop a turd on the table and claim it a bloodthirster. Even with some of the cat's I play with, you have to at the very least have something to play with.

I might not like the temperature of the water, but i'm still going to swim. I might pee in the pool a little bit, but seriously dude, you can't think that those are really that serious to get uppity about.

If you would have come out of left field with, " They complained about my old stuff, or "I was using a couple of beastmen for Dark Eldar and they threw a gasket..."

That stuff you're mad about is pretty much a drop in the bucket for issues GW has.

I can go with this for the whole issue. It's probibly the wine... Try beer next time. Beer makes you smarter.

**Backfire**

Redbeard wrote:
What about an adult in an Iron Maiden t-shirt?

Dunno, except such adults are less lame than those without Iron Maiden shirts.

**filbert**

imweasel wrote:Some of these rules seem quite ridiculous.

What's next? Your models must be painted to 3 color standard using only gw paints?

If you are going to have open gaming tables, have open gaming tables.

If you don't want open gaming tables, charge for them or take them out.

They aren't 'open' tables though - that's the whole point. They are provided by GW for the express purpose of selling product - no more, no less. They aren't provided because GW are so caring, sharing or because they think you are an all-round good egg; they want to sell models and the tables are a means to that end.

On a side note, I have never really understood the fascination for playing games in a GW store. I don't go into HMV and listen to music and watch DVDs for hours on end, nor do I spend time playing games in a video game shop.

**imweasel**

filbert wrote:
They aren't 'open' tables though - that's the whole point. They are provided by GW for the express purpose of selling product - no more, no less. They aren't provided because GW are so caring, sharing or because they think you are an all-round good egg; they want to sell models and the tables are a means to that end.

On a side note, I have never really understood the fascination for playing games in a GW store. I don't go into HMV and listen to music and watch DVDs for hours on end, nor do I spend time playing games in a video game shop.

Then if they aren't open tables, charge for them or pack em up.

Plain and simple.

**filbert**

imweasel wrote:

Then if they aren't open tables, charge for them or pack em up.

Plain and simple.

Why are you trying to boil this down to a binary answer? Its their train set, they can choose what rules they want. Don't like? Don't go there -simples.

**GazzyG**

It must be an individual store thing.

At WHW the tables are free to use as you want and the staff won't give a crap whether painted/unpainted or proxied.

I suppose in smaller stores with space at more of a premium, individual managers may have to consider things a bit more carefully.

**filbert**

I thought WHW were going to start charging for tables? There was something posted about it in the Tournies section a while ago. Not sure if it is solely for tournaments though.

**imweasel**

filbert wrote:
imweasel wrote:

Then if they aren't open tables, charge for them or pack em up.

Plain and simple.

Why are you trying to boil this down to a binary answer? Its their train set, they can choose what rules they want. Don't like? Don't go there -simples.

I guess you also have your own 'binary' answer as well.

Seems simple to me. Don't go there.

**filbert**

imweasel wrote:
Seems simple to me. Don't go there.

Er, I know. That's why I said it.

Regardless, its not just a case of either make them free or make people pay to use them - as I have been trying to explain, the tables exist more as a marketing tool than as a sop to the gaming community. They aren't really there for the gamer's benefit; its for the newcomers.

**chromedog**

Hurrdurr2000 wrote:

1) You don't have your own rulebook on your person
2) You don't have the specific codex for the army you are playing on your person
3) You don't bring your own templates, markers and dice

My friends and I often will use an iPad or laptop to view a rulebook, or our own summaries of the rules for quick reference etc.

GW battlebunker rules state that in order to play in them, you MUST have 1,2,3 and have them with you. Nothing unreasonable there. I no longer play in one because I live a 3 hour trip away from it.

With the exception of WH&DH, there are no 'current' rulebooks or codices on pdf 'legally', so they are in the right to stop you using their store with 'illegal' products. To them, it's no different to you using recasts of their figures in store. "Far use" provisions do not cover this kind of media (under Australian law). The copying of digital media changes to the ACA were to enable the legal use of mp3 players (and ipods) and DvD PLAYERS (because they don't play off the disc, but copy into a buffer first, then play from that).

**imweasel**

filbert wrote:
Regardless, its not just a case of either make them free or make people pay to use them - as I have been trying to explain, the tables exist more as a marketing tool than as a sop to the gaming community. They aren't really there for the gamer's benefit; its for the newcomers.

What 'marketing tool' for 'newcomers'?

Sorry, you 'newcomers' can't play on our tables without dropping $100-150+ US apiece, just to get started 'marketing tool'?

Yes. That's an absolute fantastic way to 'market tool' your game to 'newcomers'.

I'll stick with my binary answer as a better way to go...

**Kanluwen**

imweasel wrote:
filbert wrote:
Regardless, its not just a case of either make them free or make people pay to use them - as I have been trying to explain, the tables exist more as a marketing tool than as a sop to the gaming community. They aren't really there for the gamer's benefit; its for the newcomers.

What 'marketing tool' for 'newcomers'?

Sorry, you 'newcomers' can't play on our tables without dropping $100-150+ US apiece, just to get started 'marketing tool'?

Yeah, you didn't think that response through did you?

What do people who wander into a GW see on game night?
People playing and (in rare cases, granted) having fun. It's crazy, but someone might look and say..."y'know...that looks fun. I like fun. I can haz fun too?" and suddenly...GW has a new customer!

Yes. That's an absolute fantastic way to 'market tool' your game to 'newcomers'.

Clearly the photos of GW shops they publish have misled me! I thought I could, as a 'newcomer' who has no army of my own and stumbled into the shop one day, watch two guys have fun playing a game they enjoy with two fully painted and coherent armies!

CURSE YOU FALSE ADVERTISING! CUUUUUUUUUUUUURRRRRRRRRRRRRSEEEE YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOU!

**filbert**

imweasel wrote:
filbert wrote:
Regardless, its not just a case of either make them free or make people pay to use them - as I have been trying to explain, the tables exist more as a marketing tool than as a sop to the gaming community. They aren't really there for the gamer's benefit; its for the newcomers.

What 'marketing tool' for 'newcomers'?

Sorry, you 'newcomers' can't play on our tables without dropping $100-150+ US apiece, just to get started 'marketing tool'?

Yes. That's an absolute fantastic way to 'market tool' your game to 'newcomers'.

I'll stick with my binary answer as a better way to go...

You misunderstand me. I'm not defending or agreeing with the policy - I am simply explaining why the tables exist in GW stores. They are there to draw people in; so they can see games being played and thus spend their buy-in. This is how the GW business model survives; with a constant churn of new starters. Its handy for GW that so many of their own customers are happy to do advertising for them by playing in their own stores.

**imweasel**

filbert wrote:You misunderstand me. I'm not defending or agreeing with the policy - I am simply explaining why the tables exist in GW stores. They are there to draw people in; so they can see games being played and thus spend their buy-in. This is how the GW business model survives; with a constant churn of new starters. Its handy for GW that so many of their own customers are happy to do advertising for them by playing in their own stores.

Sorry, thought you were trying to give valid reasons on why a gw store would issue such edicts.

If this is the case, then they probably didn't go far enough with their rules. They should make the rules such that only the elite of the elite gets to 'demo' their game in their store for 'free'.

**Frazzled**

imweasel wrote:
filbert wrote:
They aren't 'open' tables though - that's the whole point. They are provided by GW for the express purpose of selling product - no more, no less. They aren't provided because GW are so caring, sharing or because they think you are an all-round good egg; they want to sell models and the tables are a means to that end.

On a side note, I have never really understood the fascination for playing games in a GW store. I don't go into HMV and listen to music and watch DVDs for hours on end, nor do I spend time playing games in a video game shop.

Then if they aren't open tables, charge for them or pack em up.

Plain and simple.

They don't have to. they do what the

they want. Its their

ing tables.

**Kilkrazy**

Manchu wrote:All things being equal, it seems to be a problem of conflicting visiosn regarding what stores are supposed to be doing. How much automony to blackshirts have on this kind of thing or is it all from On High?

This is what has always puzzled me. The US game playing scene seems to revolve around playing in shops.

The UK scene is much more about clubs at parish halls, community centres and people's houses.

It would seem obvious that GW themselves aren't interested in people playing in their shops unless it helps sell product (directly or indirectly).

**GalacticDefender**

The first three don't seem that bad, but the last one... Meh.

**MeanGreenStompa**

Kilkrazy wrote:
Manchu wrote:All things being equal, it seems to be a problem of conflicting visiosn regarding what stores are supposed to be doing. How much automony to blackshirts have on this kind of thing or is it all from On High?

This is what has always puzzled me. The US game playing scene seems to revolve around playing in shops.

The UK scene is much more about clubs at parish halls, community centres and people's houses.

It would seem obvious that GW themselves aren't interested in people playing in their shops unless it helps sell product (directly or indirectly).

You beat me to it.

US players use the store tables and don't set up clubs or seem to play at home so much, which, when you consider how much more room folks in the US have for this sort of thing (large basements/spare rooms/attic space) seems odd.

The OP is from Either Oz or NZ though according to his flag, so Im unsure on how folks there do their gaming.