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The thing here that gets me most is why on earth would you be disallowed from using OOP models for your dark eldar? One reason I love this game vs MtG is that while card sets rotate out every 3 months, my carnifexes, termagants, and grey hunters will be legit models for me to play with until...oh...say...forever. Telling you not to play with old (GW!) models in favor of the new plastics is tantamount to telling you 40k has a subscription fee. That is not my interpretation of how the game works.

Thankfully i live in a portion of America where there are no GW shops, only FLGS's and my own personal game-room in the house. This store you're describing doesn't sound like it has a very 'friendly' aura even before these rules were implemented.

One thing further - I agree with having your own RB, dice, and templates on hand and I loathe when people do BAD proxying (counts-as isn't as terrible because it's at least representational). My main issue was their stance on your older models.

Manchu wrote:I've always wondered if redshirts would try talking this way to an adult not dressed in an Iron Maiden tshirt.

I've never had any of these as an issue. For a long period of time we had a troop that played nothing but EPIC, and had lots of proxies for different tests, including paper bases for entire armies.

i'll note the OP said they actually buy their stuff online. Based on that, why on earth should they let you play there again?

Frazzled wrote:i'll note the OP said they actually buy their stuff online. Based on that, why on earth should they let you play there again?

Because it's a GW store that he wants to play at with his GW army composed of GW models that he bought from a GW-sourced supplier?

This isn't the bought online at 20% discount/want to play at Indy retailer moral dilemma. Having people in the store exhibiting the product and displaying their enthusiasm for the only product that the store sells for free should be good for business. I guess GW land doesn't view it the same way.

Nothing really strikes me as harsh, but my GW have never let you proxy anything; I left 2 kroot at home (before I started to hate them) and was told that I couldn't use two berzerkers to proxy them and to count them as casualties instead, so I guess i'm just used to it.

As for using non-current models, that's too far, and i'd complain to either the store manager, the regional manager, or write a written complaint to GW HQ; you're being disallowed to use GW models in a GW store to play a GW game, which is pathetic.

@sourclams: What makes you think GW doesn't like that? They don't seem to care if you buy the rulebook there or online, just that you bought one. I agree with your main point about having people play their being like advertising. Probably ties into why they want you to have the latest stuff, too.

@Frazzled: That's what I was thinking. It's a lot harder to tell an adult in a polo shirt some unreasonable bs than it is to tell a scruffy college kid.

all of those rules are double-edged blades. one, two and three mostly make sense, but a group only needs one rulebook per game, not one per player.

as for the proxy rule:

I played purely with cardboard base cutouts for a long time. It was not because I was cheap, it was because I didn't want to start an army that I would just put on the shelf. I played that way until I was sure I wanted to play eldar, then I celebrated with a box of dire avengers and a latte

Manchu wrote:@sourclams: What makes you think GW doesn't like that? They don't seem to care if you buy the rulebook there or online, just that you bought one. I agree with your main point about having people play their being like advertising. Probably ties into why they want you to have the latest stuff, too.

Or it could simply be the OP just has a pretty crummy looking army and the "please have the most current models" is a little less harsh than "Your stuff looks like it was assembled and painted by a blind man painting with a brush in his nose".

@Frazzled: That's what I was thinking. It's a lot harder to tell an adult in a polo shirt some unreasonable bs than it is to tell a scruffy college kid.

I dunno about that one. Many of the adults who come in wearing polo shirts look just as scruffy as the college kids in Iron Maiden shirts

I'm with GW on this one.

Also, its Guderian.

Heinz Guderian.

They have probably had people take home dice\templates as well as grab stock off the shelves for rulebooks\codexes.

#4 seems a bit unreasonable but might be due to player complaints.

Kanluwen wrote:
I dunno about that one. Many of the adults who come in wearing polo shirts look just as scruffy as the college kids in Iron Maiden shirts

And at last, Kanluwen is unmasked...

Kanluwen wrote:

Manchu wrote:@Frazzled: That's what I was thinking. It's a lot harder to tell an adult in a polo shirt some unreasonable bs than it is to tell a scruffy college kid.

I dunno about that one. Many of the adults who come in wearing polo shirts look just as scruffy as the college kids in Iron Maiden shirts

I guess I was more referring to age and overall hygiene in relation to social status. A thritysomething redshirt doesn't really have the social standing to ask a professional, even in "plainclothes," to respect some ridiculous rule. In the end, a red/blackshirt can kick anybody out for any reason. I just think he'll have a harder time working up the nerve with some individuals as opposed to others.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
I dunno about that one. Many of the adults who come in wearing polo shirts look just as scruffy as the college kids in Iron Maiden shirts

And at last, Kanluwen is unmasked...

...

Damnit, how'd he find out!

But seriously. I find it makes people more responsive if you look presentable(even if it's just a t-shirt and cargo pants, make sure they're not covered in paint, etc) and not like a stoner out for a munchy run.

sourclams wrote:

Frazzled wrote:i'll note the OP said they actually buy their stuff online. Based on that, why on earth should they let you play there again?

Because it's a GW store that he wants to play at with his GW army composed of GW models that he bought from a GW-sourced supplier?

This isn't the bought online at 20% discount/want to play at Indy retailer moral dilemma. Having people in the store exhibiting the product and displaying their enthusiasm for the only product that the store sells for free should be good for business. I guess GW land doesn't view it the same way.

Get ing real. They are not buying from the store there. That means his purchases don't mean gak to the employees in the store who are sold on store sales and orders. Enlightened self interest means push this turkey out, he's a waste of their space and oxygen.

And that's a pants-on-head slowed way to look at it. That's my whole point.

Frazzled wrote:

sourclams wrote:

Frazzled wrote:i'll note the OP said they actually buy their stuff online. Based on that, why on earth should they let you play there again?

Because it's a GW store that he wants to play at with his GW army composed of GW models that he bought from a GW-sourced supplier?

This isn't the bought online at 20% discount/want to play at Indy retailer moral dilemma. Having people in the store exhibiting the product and displaying their enthusiasm for the only product that the store sells for free should be good for business. I guess GW land doesn't view it the same way.

Get ing real. They are not buying from the store there. That means his purchases don't mean gak to the employees in the store who are sold on store sales and orders. Enlightened self interest means push this turkey out, he's a waste of their space and oxygen.

Hmm, if you were talking about a FLGS, you'd be dead on, but the sales of GW minis to third party shops is keeping GW stores open just as much as the direct store sales, they are all keeping the company afloat.

GW has been fairly open about the shops being about recruitment and induction into the hobby, the sales from those shops is a fairly good secondary bonus to them after they've got new folks coming in and seeing the hobby first hand.

Maybe Frazzled means that particular store is not keeping its doors open with third party sales?


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MeanGreenStompa wrote:GW has been fairly open about the shops being about recruitment and induction into the hobby, the sales from those shops is a fairly good secondary bonus to them after they've got new folks coming in and seeing the hobby first hand.

This is hard to square with the closing of so many stores.

sourclams wrote:And that's a pants-on-head slowed way to look at it. That's my whole point.

No its smart actually. Enlightened self interest. Exept in la la hand all salesmen think of their targets.
Further they have no proof the OP has acquired anything from the OEM in any manner. You no buy stuff you GTF out!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

sourclams wrote:

Frazzled wrote:i'll note the OP said they actually buy their stuff online. Based on that, why on earth should they let you play there again?

Because it's a GW store that he wants to play at with his GW army composed of GW models that he bought from a GW-sourced supplier?

This isn't the bought online at 20% discount/want to play at Indy retailer moral dilemma. Having people in the store exhibiting the product and displaying their enthusiasm for the only product that the store sells for free should be good for business. I guess GW land doesn't view it the same way.

Get ing real. They are not buying from the store there. That means his purchases don't mean gak to the employees in the store who are sold on store sales and orders. Enlightened self interest means push this turkey out, he's a waste of their space and oxygen.

Hmm, if you were talking about a FLGS, you'd be dead on, but the sales of GW minis to third party shops is keeping GW stores open just as much as the direct store sales, they are all keeping the company afloat.

GW has been fairly open about the shops being about recruitment and induction into the hobby, the sales from those shops is a fairly good secondary bonus to them after they've got new folks coming in and seeing the hobby first hand.

Again, has no one ever worked in retail? They care about their store sales. They don't give a flying up anyone else's. If they did they are not salemen and should be fired.

4 I can understand to a to a point if the probably the same people showed up all the time with a ton of proxies . I can see a store getting miffed at that same with bring your own supplys as some people probably kept borrowing all the time.

Manchu wrote:Maybe Frazzled means that particular store is not keeping its doors open with third party sales?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:GW has been fairly open about the shops being about recruitment and induction into the hobby, the sales from those shops is a fairly good secondary bonus to them after they've got new folks coming in and seeing the hobby first hand.

This is hard to square with the closing of so many stores.

Exactly.

The primary purpose GW stores have game tables, and allow people to come in and play for free is so that the random Joe strolling into the store sees...

1) A diverse selection of GW products owned by individuals.

2) Painted Armies (which look great, even if badly painted when compared to...) unpainted Armies (indicating playability even if you dont have time/ability to paint.)

3) The possibility of player "recruitment." (i.e. - Hey guys whatcha playing? 40K, You ever play? No, but I have wanted to start! You should, it's fun, want to give it a go? Sure! etc...)

Please understand that it is no different than if you brought your "Big Mac" sack into a 4 star restraunt and occupied one of thier tables while you enjoyed the ambiance and breadsticks and water while you chowed down and left no tip.

Again, while that may or may not be the idea it doesn't seem to keep stores open.

Manchu wrote:This is hard to square with the closing of so many stores.

Yet it's what two store managers have both told me over beers, that the high ups are comfortable with other shops selling their minis, even at discount, as they view the GW store's principle goal as recruitment.

I also understand the closing of stores is to reduce rental overheads and in many cases smaller one man outfits have reopened near the original store but outside the premium mall space they had been occupying.

Frazzled wrote:
Again, has no one ever worked in retail? They care about their store sales. They don't give a flying up anyone else's. If they did they are not salemen and should be fired.

Individuals may well care about their sales targets, that's certainly true, but I doubt they would be allowed to set a store policy about that. I mean, if people are going into that shop with models bought at another GW store, what then? They can hardly be expected to take their receipts into the store for the next few years every time they want a match.

GW must expect people to come into the store to play with their GW models purchased at other locations, regardless of price, for as long as they have the open tables for people to come in and game.

(and again, on that note, OP, buy your templates and books, doesn't matter where but obtain some, because as I've read it, several GWs no longer welcome random gaming and only allow introduction games, so perhaps just be thankful you have the tables... or do what I'd do and open yourself a clubhouse to play... that does require a bit more work, but you'd be setting your own rules in your own club).

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Manchu wrote:This is hard to square with the closing of so many stores.

Yet it's what two store managers have both told me over beers, that the high ups are comfortable with other shops selling their minis, even at discount, as they view the GW store's principle goal as recruitment.

I think it's a great idea. I'm sure that's one of the things their remaining stores are trying to accomplish. But I also know that redshirts are supposed to move product and not just create goodwill.

My two cents,

1. In GW stores I have noticed; different Blackshirt,different rules.

2. If you are not happy, don't game there (vote with your wallet).

3. I personally am extremely angry with lame ass people that say they can't afford x/y but can have a expensive smart phone, roll up in a Luxury car and say they can not buy a rulebook. (like the mom and pop I work for, bouncing checks when they have expensive toys).

4.


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4. Proxies, sorry Its called WYSIWYG for a reason.

In my best Arnold Rimmer voice
"Honestly whats next? Sneakers representing titans, my boogers as snotlings? Or how about Lister's genitals representing chaos spawn!

j_p_chess wrote:3. I personally am extremely angry with lame ass people that say they can't afford x/y but can have a expensive smart phone, roll up in a Luxury car and say they can not buy a rulebook. (like the mom and pop I work for, bouncing checks when they have expensive toys).

I did think this when OP mentoned an iPad. But I guess it's a convenience thing rather than a cannot afford thing.

All the rules listed, applied by someone with a modicum of common sense, seem fairly reasonable to me.

That said, the staff can make or break a store. I've generally had good experience in GW stores, but I've met the odd red shirt who, if given a store of his own, would have me running for the exit...

Manchu wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Manchu wrote:This is hard to square with the closing of so many stores.

Yet it's what two store managers have both told me over beers, that the high ups are comfortable with other shops selling their minis, even at discount, as they view the GW store's principle goal as recruitment.

I think it's a great idea. I'm sure that's one of the things their remaining stores are trying to accomplish. But I also know that redshirts are supposed to move product and not just create goodwill.

Oh I agree, but going to 1-man-per-store and instituting draconian policies about the use of store facilities are two things that aren't going to help store sales in the least.

I can understand about not allowing non-GW models, coke can proxies, or scruffy looking 2nd edition armies that arrived the store via shoebox carried by unwashed band tshirt guy, but the 'no sharing dice' policy is hardly that.

GW stores are continuing their glorious death spiral into oblivion. Great strategic vision, that.

Manchu wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:GW has been fairly open about the shops being about recruitment and induction into the hobby, the sales from those shops is a fairly good secondary bonus to them after they've got new folks coming in and seeing the hobby first hand.

This is hard to square with the closing of so many stores.

You know, I can kind of understand why they'd close so many stores.

Having a large amount of stores in the same vicinity(like they tended to do at times) results in an overcrowding of 'official' GW shops. They really just need one in a central location, then they direct you to the FLGSes for gaming, etc.

All things being equal, it seems to be a problem of conflicting visiosn regarding what stores are supposed to be doing. How much automony to blackshirts have on this kind of thing or is it all from On High?