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scubasteve04 wrote:The answer was not keep shooting the front armor until something happens (it wont),

Actually, that's not totally true. I read a few testimonies from WWII, and it seems that a tiger I or II tank could relatively easily be damaged or destroyed by repetitive hits from a 75 mm cannon with AT rounds (like the Sherman's cannon). Basically, the frontal armor of the tiger suffers damage with each armor piercing round it takes, and after 5-6 rounds on the same section of the armor plating, the hull of the tiger is breached.

This is why the famous A-10 thunderbolt is such an effective tank hunter. Its GAU-8 rotary cannon uses 30 mm rounds which, in theory, would not be able to inflict important damage to a modern battle tank. But this cannon fires 4 200 rounds per minute!

I believe even a terminator armor would be chewed up by this terrific rate of fire.

Yes, a 75mm gun could, with enough time, pop a tiger from the front.


in reality though, the Sherman isn't going to get more then a couple of rounds off before the tiger pops the sherman. especially at a distance.

even from the side, a 75mm gun could just bounce off a tiger.


even 76mm guns weren't garunteed to get through Tiger armor except at close range.

NagothDaCleaver wrote:Where is the option for "None Of The Above"

I don't believe any heavy artillery we poses currently is more powerful than an Earthshaker Battle Cannon and Termi's get their full save against it.

Futuristic armor composed of materials that are harder than anything we currently can create need futuristic weapons to penetrate them.

umm, possible brain fatr on my part, and slightly OT.....but wouldn't a termie have to take an invul save against an Earthshaker as it is double their toughness?

The GAU-8 in a vaccum, might penetrate Terminator armor (equivilent of an assault cannon IMO, which rends).

In reality, hitting a Terminator with a solid burst of rounds (No advanced targetting or anything, just fired line of sight) in a battle is not going to happen when factoring cover, the crux force field, and teleportation. The GAU-8 is a weapon built for fighting tanks, not infantry.

scubasteve04 wrote:The GAU-8 in a vaccum, might penetrate Terminator armor (equivilent of an assault cannon IMO, which rends).

In reality, hitting a Terminator with a solid burst of rounds (No advanced targetting or anything, just fired line of sight) in a battle is not going to happen when factoring cover, the crux force field, and teleportation. The GAU-8 is a weapon built for fighting tanks, not infantry.

I agree, but this was not exactly my point.

I was wondering which of our weapons could crack a termy suit open.
Of course, in real fighting conditions, (with his forcefield, his shiny assault cannon, its servo-muscles...) a single terminator would ruin the day of any modern army.

Especially if he had a storm shield...

Grey Templar wrote:
Railguns are real,

Bolters use actual real world technology,

Plasma weapons use the Magnetic Tunnel theory of plasma containment,

Space Ship weapons are mostly railguns of one type or another,

Exterminatus is a combination of Biological and conventional weaponry(unlike other planet killing weapons that cause planets to blast into each other by manipulating gravity which is currently scientifically impossable)

40k Skimmers use Magnetic plates to skim the planets magnetic field(and often have additional thrusters to gain orbit of a planet)

You're cherry-picking. 40k has all this, but it also has literal hell, literal demons, people who blow other people apart with mind bullets, fungus-people who make things happen through sheer force of will, and a ten-thousand year old psychic corpse who is also Jesus. If you want to make an argument that some of its technology has the same trappings as existing technology, you can make that argument, but don't try to tell me that 40k is the most realistic future setting ever. It's no Firefly, (where, aside from River Tam's supposed sixth sense), the majority of technology is rooted in hard science. It's not even Traveller, where the FTL system is largely handwaved, but the Third Imperium itself is largely rooted in reality, with some real effort made into figuring out the logistics of exactly how an empire that size manages to operate itself. It's not even Star Trek, and when your science is softer than "Bounce the Primary Particle Beam off the Main Deflector Dish," you know you've hit a new low.

Warhammer 40k is pure fantasy operating on Rule of Cool with the trappings of science fiction. It's a world where "Depleted Deuterium" gyrojet rounds are considered useful weapons (here is a hint: gyrojet technology was abandoned because it honestly sucks for small arms. Standard firearms are more stable, more powerful at close range, and way less likely to light everything around you on fire.). It's a place where chainsaw-swords are useful weapons and not stupidly dangerous, badly-balanced toys that would seize up and jam the first time they were swung into a human being (chainsaws are intended to cut through hard wood, not through soft, shreddable and pliable human flesh).

So honestly, speculating on whether X real world weapon can penetrate Y fantasy armor is as pointless as arguing whether Kimbo Slice could beat up Batman. The answer is always: "If Dan Abnett needs it to, sure."

A good question for clarification is what is the rate of fire. I'm pretty sure even a .22 bullet, if fired from a high-speed minigun at 400,000 rounds per second would be able to get through in a fairly short amount of time.

Just think of the weapons that have AP2 in the game and try to find a counterpart in real life. A lot of AP2 weapons are energy weapons, which we don't have obviously. Even stuff like tank cannons in 40k don't get you the AP2, so I think it would be a stretch to say any of our modern battlefield weapons would get the job done.

snake wrote:Just think of the weapons that have AP2 in the game and try to find a counterpart in real life. A lot of AP2 weapons are energy weapons, which we don't have obviously. Even stuff like tank cannons in 40k don't get you the AP2, so I think it would be a stretch to say any of our modern battlefield weapons would get the job done.

AP 2 weapons are energy weapons for the most part but AP- weapons like autoguns and Shotguns and AP 6 weapons like Heavy Stubbers can kill termies in the game, however infrequently it happens.

Actually, we do have directed energy weapons, it's just that most of them are still in dev and Alpha test. Honestly? We basically have Lascannons, they're just so big they have to be mounted on 747s. There's a humvee-mounted laser weapon that's just about to be sent into the field, actually.

Dogface 76 wrote:

snake wrote:Just think of the weapons that have AP2 in the game and try to find a counterpart in real life. A lot of AP2 weapons are energy weapons, which we don't have obviously. Even stuff like tank cannons in 40k don't get you the AP2, so I think it would be a stretch to say any of our modern battlefield weapons would get the job done.

AP 2 weapons are energy weapons for the most part but AP- weapons like autoguns and Shotguns and AP 6 weapons like Heavy Stubbers can kill termies in the game, however infrequently it happens.

Armor piercing refers to the ability of a weapon to punch through armor and thus ignore it. Based on their designation as AP- and AP 6, such weapons do not have the typical ability to pierce terminator armor. Otherwise, they would be AP2. Failing a save against an AP- and AP6, etc, weapon more likely represents hitting a joint, some kind of armor malfunction, or torrential rate of fire (see: GAU-8, etc) etc. The OP asked what kind of weapons can pierce through the thickest part of the armor, which is why I suggested a comparison to AP2 weapons - they are the only weapons that typically do this. Otherwise, if you take chance into account, there are probably any number of weapons that could bring a terminator down, such as the shotguns and stubbers you rightly referenced.

Anvildude wrote:Actually, we do have directed energy weapons, it's just that most of them are still in dev and Alpha test. Honestly? We basically have Lascannons, they're just so big they have to be mounted on 747s. There's a humvee-mounted laser weapon that's just about to be sent into the field, actually.

I've heard such, but never really looked into it. Any juicy links you can share?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directed_energy_weapons

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/4231116

http://gizmodo.com/#!5454791/video-of-humvee+mounted-laser-avenger-killing-bombs


That's Wikipedia, Popular Mechanics, and Gizmodo.

There's also a few non-lethal variations, such as the "Very Uncomfortable Heat Ray" and the "Really Loud Noise Beam" but we're not really interested in those for 40K.

Wait till that heat ray is powerful enough to cause 3rd degree burns.

21st century melta gun...

themocaw wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
Railguns are real,

Bolters use actual real world technology,

Plasma weapons use the Magnetic Tunnel theory of plasma containment,

Space Ship weapons are mostly railguns of one type or another,

Exterminatus is a combination of Biological and conventional weaponry(unlike other planet killing weapons that cause planets to blast into each other by manipulating gravity which is currently scientifically impossable)

40k Skimmers use Magnetic plates to skim the planets magnetic field(and often have additional thrusters to gain orbit of a planet)

You're cherry-picking. 40k has all this, but it also has literal hell, literal demons, people who blow other people apart with mind bullets, fungus-people who make things happen through sheer force of will, and a ten-thousand year old psychic corpse who is also Jesus. If you want to make an argument that some of its technology has the same trappings as existing technology, you can make that argument, but don't try to tell me that 40k is the most realistic future setting ever. It's no Firefly, (where, aside from River Tam's supposed sixth sense), the majority of technology is rooted in hard science. It's not even Traveller, where the FTL system is largely handwaved, but the Third Imperium itself is largely rooted in reality, with some real effort made into figuring out the logistics of exactly how an empire that size manages to operate itself. It's not even Star Trek, and when your science is softer than "Bounce the Primary Particle Beam off the Main Deflector Dish," you know you've hit a new low.

Warhammer 40k is pure fantasy operating on Rule of Cool with the trappings of science fiction. It's a world where "Depleted Deuterium" gyrojet rounds are considered useful weapons (here is a hint: gyrojet technology was abandoned because it honestly sucks for small arms. Standard firearms are more stable, more powerful at close range, and way less likely to light everything around you on fire.). It's a place where chainsaw-swords are useful weapons and not stupidly dangerous, badly-balanced toys that would seize up and jam the first time they were swung into a human being (chainsaws are intended to cut through hard wood, not through soft, shreddable and pliable human flesh).

So honestly, speculating on whether X real world weapon can penetrate Y fantasy armor is as pointless as arguing whether Kimbo Slice could beat up Batman. The answer is always: "If Dan Abnett needs it to, sure."

Wai..What? Did they actually say depleted deuterium or are you misquoting? Our anti tank rounds are depleted uranium (DU), used because uranium is heavy as crap and very hard to stop when it's in motion. Deuterium is a hydrogen isotope (the lightest element) used in making hydrogen bombs and fusion research

Praxiss wrote:

NagothDaCleaver wrote:Where is the option for "None Of The Above"

I don't believe any heavy artillery we poses currently is more powerful than an Earthshaker Battle Cannon and Termi's get their full save against it.

Futuristic armor composed of materials that are harder than anything we currently can create need futuristic weapons to penetrate them.

umm, possible brain fatr on my part, and slightly OT.....but wouldn't a termie have to take an invul save against an Earthshaker as it is double their toughness?

No. Instant death doesn't automatically mean your armor is pierced. Many weapons are high strength low AP, and models get an armor save against them, even if they could cause instant death if they wound.

Most of the AP 1 and 2 weapons are heat-based... plasma, melta, massive lasers, etc... And in close combat I always imagine power weapons going through armour like a hot knife goes through butter... they're like really extreme polystyrene cutters! The only ordnance commonly encountered AP2 I can think of is the demolisher, but in the old fluff I think that was a plasma shell or something wierd.

I think the weakness to terminator armour is extreme heat, from a one-shot-one-kill perspective, and so none of the choices really cut it. I imagine the armour is a bit like Iron Man, and can pretty much take an artillery shell... Although the impact would knock the termi down. That said, ignoring the one-shot-kill thing, anything upwards from 20mm could probably take one down with sheer weight of fire, especially with dense AP shot. The shells would push the termi back, chipping and shredding the armour gradually, until it gave and shattered.

Of course, there's always the failsafe force field... lol

Arclaw wrote:Most of the AP 1 and 2 weapons are heat-based... plasma, melta, massive lasers, etc... And in close combat I always imagine power weapons going through armour like a hot knife goes through butter... they're like really extreme polystyrene cutters! The only ordnance commonly encountered AP2 I can think of is the demolisher, but in the old fluff I think that was a plasma shell or something wierd.

I think the weakness to terminator armour is extreme heat, from a one-shot-one-kill perspective, and so none of the choices really cut it. I imagine the armour is a bit like Iron Man, and can pretty much take an artillery shell... Although the impact would knock the termi down. That said, ignoring the one-shot-kill thing, anything upwards from 20mm could probably take one down with sheer weight of fire, especially with dense AP shot. The shells would push the termi back, chipping and shredding the armour gradually, until it gave and shattered.

Of course, there's always the failsafe force field... lol

And the fact that the terminator will be shooting his automatic RPG cannon at you... or is wielding a storm shield while firing anti-tank missiles designed 38k years from now at you from his back-mounted MRL...

Brotherjulian wrote: Wai..What? Did they actually say depleted deuterium or are you misquoting? Our anti tank rounds are depleted uranium (DU), used because uranium is heavy as crap and very hard to stop when it's in motion. Deuterium is a hydrogen isotope (the lightest element) used in making hydrogen bombs and fusion research

Deuterium is used in the detonating charge.


the actual round is made out of a metal.

if you think about it ork guns a crap and their rounds go though the SM terminator armour.

thats because orks are psychic and they THINK the rounds can go through terminators armor.

Orks think, therefore they kill

Grey Templar wrote:

Brotherjulian wrote: Wai..What? Did they actually say depleted deuterium or are you misquoting? Our anti tank rounds are depleted uranium (DU), used because uranium is heavy as crap and very hard to stop when it's in motion. Deuterium is a hydrogen isotope (the lightest element) used in making hydrogen bombs and fusion research

Deuterium is used in the detonating charge.

the actual round is made out of a metal.

Depleted Deuterium. Get it right. It's an infamous little blurb in. . . I think the 4th edition rulebook or SM Codex. . . on the page with the cutaway of the bolter round.

Either way, it's the explosive.

I think people had the erronious notion that it was being used for the same reason we use Depleted Uranium in Savo rounds.

Grey Templar wrote:Either way, it's the explosive.

I think people had the erronious notion that it was being used for the same reason we use Depleted Uranium in Savo rounds.

You mean APFSDS Rounds? Also known as Armor Piercing Fin-Stablized Discarding Sabot rounds? Sabot meaning "shoe," referring to the plastic "shoe" that holds the depleted uranium dart in place in the gun barrel?

Not to mention that there is no such thing as Depleted Deuterium?

yeah, i meant Sabot rounds.

Grey Templar wrote:yeah, i meant Sabot rounds.

Let's test your gun knowledge further. How many rounds of .50 BMG does a DEAGLE brand Desert Eagle hold in an extended clip?

themocaw wrote:Let's test your gun knowledge further. How many rounds of .50 BMG does a DEAGLE brand Desert Eagle hold in an extended clip?

Trick question. Desert eagle uses .50 action express

No such thing as deagle brand either

.50 holds 7 IIRC, .44 holds 8, .357 holds 9





Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nice /k/ references though...

An AP2 Leman Russ demolisher has a maximum table range of 24". Given an optimistic 40k scale of 1/48 that's 1152 inches, or 96 feet, or an amazing 29 metres!

The exceptionally long ranged AP2 vanquisher can hit things 72" away. That's an optimistic scale 3456 inches, or 288 feet, or ALMOST 88 METRES!!

The modern generic M256 cannon arming the M1A1 and M1A2, (abrams) in contrast, is accurate and lethal to armour as a direct-fire weapon to around 9600+ feet, or around 3000 metres. (or 2400 inches / 200 feet scale tabletop range, lol!)
A generic indirect artillery/basilisk equivalent, like a L118 artillery gun, can reliably hit 17km+, (or 1100 feet + scale tabletop range!!)

Now obviously major concessions have to be made to the weapon profiles to allow them to actually be playable on a tabletop, but taking the RAW as even a very, very, very loose basis for the weapons means that nearly all 40k weaponry is woefully underpowered in terms of range compared to 21st century weapons. Their terminal effects when they hit, however, generally seem to be MUCH greater! I really do think the resistance of a terminator suit to 21st century high density projectiles with huge velocity & kinetic energy wouldn't be that good, as there are no 40k weapons that possess those qualities and therefore minimal need for a defense against them.

TL;DR In my opinion against 40k heavy weight solid or explosive low velocity ammo, the terminators are nigh on invulnerable, but against 21st century (pre-dark age of technology?) high energy, high velocity rounds they would be holed.

Arclaw wrote:Most of the AP 1 and 2 weapons are heat-based... plasma, melta, massive lasers, etc... And in close combat I always imagine power weapons going through armour like a hot knife goes through butter... they're like really extreme polystyrene cutters! The only ordnance commonly encountered AP2 I can think of is the demolisher, but in the old fluff I think that was a plasma shell or something wierd.

I think the weakness to terminator armour is extreme heat, from a one-shot-one-kill perspective, and so none of the choices really cut it. I imagine the armour is a bit like Iron Man, and can pretty much take an artillery shell... Although the impact would knock the termi down. That said, ignoring the one-shot-kill thing, anything upwards from 20mm could probably take one down with sheer weight of fire, especially with dense AP shot. The shells would push the termi back, chipping and shredding the armour gradually, until it gave and shattered.

Of course, there's always the failsafe force field... lol

I think the opposite is true of termy armor. Most AP1 and 2 weapons happen to be heat based in 40k yes, but the name ceramite implies ceramics (massive heat resistance but brittle) allied with something to reinforce them)
There were attempts (and this may have lead to Chobham armor?) to infuse ceramics with molten aluminum in this regard. This and the background that the original intent of the terminator armor program was maintenance inside of plasma reactors (HEAT!) makes me believe TDA armor would be very resistant to heat, and it's actual weakness should be powerful kinetic energy rounds. (rail guns, sabot tank rounds) I liken krak missiles to a modern HEAT missile which actually use a jet of plasma on impact so I think the armor would resist those very well