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Hear hear! Ahriman is the bombdiggidy. I can't wait for Atlas Infernal to hit the streets.

Amen brother!

cromwest wrote:Roboute Guilliman is the best Primarch hands down. No Roboute Guilliman = no imperium.

That means he's the worst Primarch hands down. The Imperium is a very very bad place. Would you really want to live there? Mankind deserves better than the Imperium!

Mankind can only exist like The Imperium.

Well the dumbest is sure as hell Jeghati Khan. Coolest for me has to be Sanguinius.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:That means he's the worst Primarch hands down. The Imperium is a very very bad place. Would you really want to live there? Mankind deserves better than the Imperium!

Actually, the Ultima Segmentum is the best place in the Imperium to live. By all accounts, the Ultramarines are very benevolent monarchs, and the citizens of their worlds are relatively happier than any others in the Imperium.

Omegus wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:That means he's the worst Primarch hands down. The Imperium is a very very bad place. Would you really want to live there? Mankind deserves better than the Imperium!

Actually, the Ultima Segmentum is the best place in the Imperium to live. By all accounts, the Ultramarines are very benevolent monarchs, and the citizens of their worlds are relatively happier than any others in the Imperium.

I think much of that can be accredited to the fluff writers Fanboygasms for them

My favorite Primarch is Horus. To me he seems like the strongest (though he's definitely rivaled by Reboute and Russ) and the smartest (though he's definitely rivaled by AlphariusOmegon). He gained the favor of the Chaos Gods and the Allegiance of over half of the Imperium. Using good tactics he manipulated the Imperium and left it wide up to attack. The only reason he didn't rule the galaxy was because he got all emotional at the end and gave the Emperor an opportunity to kill him.

Ultramar specifically has been like it is for a long time, Index Astartes at least. It makes sense with Guillimans character and role within the Primarchs.

Wardragoon wrote:I think much of that can be accredited to the fluff writers Fanboygasms for them

Be that as it may, it's the fluff we have to work with. Someone has got to be the good guy, even if it is those rigid arseholes the Ultramarines.

LoneLictor wrote:My favorite Primarch is Horus. To me he seems like the strongest (though he's definitely rivaled by Reboute and Russ) and the smartest (though he's definitely rivaled by AlphariusOmegon). He gained the favor of the Chaos Gods and the Allegiance of over half of the Imperium. Using good tactics he manipulated the Imperium and left it wide up to attack. The only reason he didn't rule the galaxy was because he got all emotional at the end and gave the Emperor an opportunity to kill him.

I could be wrong, but I feel Horus didn't really manipulate anyone, if anything he was the one manipulated its seems to me that a lot of the primarchs respected him even more than the Emperor so thats why a lot of them followed him into heresy.

On a random note I find it kind of weird that half went traitor and half went loyal....cause I would probably join my brother in overthrowing my father from power(useless since we don't live with him anymore)...just a food for thought

Omegus wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:I think much of that can be accredited to the fluff writers Fanboygasms for them

Be that as it may, it's the fluff we have to work with. Someone has got to be the good guy, even if it is those rigid arseholes the Ultramarines.

Well even though the primarch was kind of a dink Space Wolves are probably the most human/kind of all the chapters, UMs tend to act like a logs been shoved up their bum

LoneLictor wrote:My favorite Primarch is Horus. To me he seems like the strongest (though he's definitely rivaled by Reboute and Russ) and the smartest (though he's definitely rivaled by AlphariusOmegon). He gained the favor of the Chaos Gods and the Allegiance of over half of the Imperium. Using good tactics he manipulated the Imperium and left it wide up to attack. The only reason he didn't rule the galaxy was because he got all emotional at the end and gave the Emperor an opportunity to kill him.

If we're talking raw intelligence, none of them compare to Magnus. Horus had the best combination of everything. And he didn't give the Emperor any opportunities, the part about him hesitating in the last minute has been overwritten/retconned. He never had a chance against the Emperor, and it was only when he killed that Custodian that interrupted the battle, that the Emperor realized there was no hope for his son and completely annihilated him. The Emperor could have done that from the start of the battle if he really wanted to.

Wardragoon wrote:

Omegus wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:I think much of that can be accredited to the fluff writers Fanboygasms for them

Be that as it may, it's the fluff we have to work with. Someone has got to be the good guy, even if it is those rigid arseholes the Ultramarines.

Well even though the primarch was kind of a dink Space Wolves are probably the most human/kind of all the chapters, UMs tend to act like a logs been shoved up their bum

yup! That's why their chapter master is the most beloved Space Marine Chapter Master in the Imperium. They're better than the Ultramarines by far. Maybe not in organization but certainly in humanity towards others.

Or Ollanius Pious if you choose to believe.

Wardragoon wrote:Well even though the primarch was kind of a dink Space Wolves are probably the most human/kind of all the chapters, UMs tend to act like a logs been shoved up their bum

There is nothing human/kind about the Space Wolves. In Battle for the Fang where we see a lot of interaction between Wolves and their Fenrisian servants, they are extremely arrogant and aloof. They don't even know the names of the people who give their lives to serve them, referring to them all as "mortals" and seeing their deaths as inconsequential as long as their needs are met.

They'll give you props for courage or martial ability, sure, but that's about it.

Ultramarines are no different.

Omegus wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:Well even though the primarch was kind of a dink Space Wolves are probably the most human/kind of all the chapters, UMs tend to act like a logs been shoved up their bum

There is nothing human/kind about the Space Wolves. In Battle for the Fang where we see a lot of interaction between Wolves and their Fenrisian servants, they are extremely arrogant and aloof. They don't even know the names of the people who give their lives to serve them, referring to them all as "mortals" and seeing their deaths as inconsequential as long as their needs are met.

They'll give you props for courage or martial ability, sure, but that's about it.

Yet all the other fluff supports them as being kind and generally more human than the ultramarines(look how learchus is the epitome of an ultramarine and his general disdain for others)
For instance it kind of implies that Logan Grimnar was damn near willing to go renegade over the slaughter of the Imperial Guardsmen for the first Armageddon war

I don't see Learchus as having disdain for mortals, just that it's part of his duty to help them. Warriors of Ultramar has him being a serious drill instructor rather than an aloof and arrogant Space Marine.

What fluff? Where is the support? The only thing people ever mention is Logan Grimnar's feud with the Inquisition over their treatment of the Armaggeddon survivors.

I'm not saying Ultramarines are BFF with their servants, all Astartes see themselves as far beyond "mere mortals" and are arrogant dicks. But whereas Ultramar holds a civilized and Utopian society, Fenris is a primitive deathworld. Whereas the Ultima Segmentum is the most peaceable and stable of the Imperial realms (notwithstanding all the Tyranids, but what are you gonna do), Fenris is just Fenris.

If I'm going to be seen as an inconsequential spec by my masters, I rather live in a high-tech super Rome in Space, than on a frozen deathworld populated by savages.

The space wolves novels have them interacting quite a bit with mortals, and they seem friendly enough.

Fair enough. Those novels are still a joke, though. They are aimed at 12-year-olds with their tales of teenage wolf lord. They don't approach the level of writing of say, Prospero Burns, or Battle for the Fang.

Omegus wrote:Fair enough. Those novels are still a joke, though. They are aimed at 12-year-olds with their tales of teenage wolf lord. They don't approach the level of writing of say, Prospero Burns, or Battle for the Fang.

Well I could say most of the fluff is aimed for that age range, if you don't believe me look at all the Mary Sue characters, also ignoring fluff because you dont like it is bad

Many of the Primarchs have things that are laudable about them but it is in the critical moments that has told the most about their worth.
Blood Angles, Imperial Fists and White Scars held their ground defending holy Terra and the Emperor.
Rogal Dorn did well but later nearly got his entire legion killed off in the Iron Cage incident, and his forces were combat ineffective for what 10-20 years after that? Not good.

Kahn also did well there but not a lot else. <ponders>

Sanguinius, went toe to toe with possessed Horus and gave his last breath making the opening in Horus' armor that the Emperor needed to take him down, even at such a cost.

Sanguinius gets my vote. Not that I much care for what the BA have become since, but for the reasons stated.

Wardragoon wrote:Well I could say most of the fluff is aimed for that age range, if you don't believe me look at all the Mary Sue characters, also ignoring fluff because you dont like it is bad

I'm not ignoring the fluff because I don't like it, I'm simply going by the most recent fluff we have, and valuing books that focus on character development more than "hurr, let's get drunk and go fightin' 'round da world!"

Omegus wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:Well I could say most of the fluff is aimed for that age range, if you don't believe me look at all the Mary Sue characters, also ignoring fluff because you dont like it is bad

I'm not ignoring the fluff because I don't like it, I'm simply going by the most recent fluff we have, and valuing books that focus on character development more than "hurr, let's get drunk and go fightin' 'round da world!"

Okay in all fairness only Haegr's that way

And it's still awesome.

But we'r not talking about how well it's written (its full of typo's XD) etc. anyway so who cares.

Otherwise I'll just go read GG, Eisenhorn and Ravenor for the 5th time or something.

Soladrin wrote:And it's still awesome.

But we'r not talking about how well it's written (its full of typo's XD) etc. anyway so who cares.

Otherwise I'll just go read GG, Eisenhorn and Ravenor for the 5th time or something.

How is Eisenhorn?

Good stuff. It's Dan Abnett, for all his flaws his stuff is the best BL puts out.

DORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRN