Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Harriticus wrote:Part of the grimdark of 40k was that mankind is facing unstoppable oblivion. This was not just because of the constant wars with the Orks or Chaos, but also because these new radical threats like the Tyranids and Necrons were emerging. Now, really the only threat to mankinds survival is the Tyranids.

And Orks, and Chaos ,and itself...

Actually Orks really pose a greater threat (And as a result take up more of the Imperium's resources) than the Tyranids do.

I think i have decided i dont mind it.

The main (arguably only good point) is It means players can do more cool themed armies. They could do them before but now it means they can be done without the uneasy feeling of Un-canon heresy.

This is a miniature-making hobby so i suppose anything that guarantees more freedom to personalise your army is all that matters.

My sci-fi nerd side Hates it though, the Necrons were thematically interesting. Now their theme is kinda lost.

Melissia wrote:

Harriticus wrote:Part of the grimdark of 40k was that mankind is facing unstoppable oblivion. This was not just because of the constant wars with the Orks or Chaos, but also because these new radical threats like the Tyranids and Necrons were emerging. Now, really the only threat to mankinds survival is the Tyranids.

And Orks, and Chaos ,and itself...

Actually Orks really pose a greater threat (And as a result take up more of the Imperium's resources) than the Tyranids do.

Unless the Orks unite they won't go beyond localized Sub-Sector level threats. They can cause massively destructive wars that can last decades and kill billions, but they won't be able to do anything more unless they were to unite. Which of course won't ever happen.

Chaos can't get past the Cadian Gate and has been doing the same thing it has been for 10,000 years. I agree they should be a greater threat but GW will be GW. Really before only the Necrons and Tyranids came off as galactic-level threats.

You could always do themed armies with Necrons...
Every army had a way of explaining a particularly themed army...
With Necrons it was always the 'damaged tombworld' thing but it never came up that much since very few people collected them.

Harriticus wrote:Unless the Orks unite

That happens all the time. There's many, many warbosses and warlords over the galaxy taht unite in sector-threatening WAAAGH!s.

Harriticus wrote:Chaos can't get past the Cadian Gate

Stop equating Chaos with Chaos Whinyboy Marines.

CSMs are a tiny and insignificant portion of the forces loyal to Chaos.

purplefood wrote:You could always do themed armies with Necrons...
Every army had a way of explaining a particularly themed army...
With Necrons it was always the 'damaged tombworld' thing but it never came up that much since very few people collected them.

Yes, and that's a problem and a weak solution. Before the Necrons were a galactic level threat. A malfunctioning tombworld that still behaved like machines out to harvest life instead of a misunderstood market-economy civilization still would just be a local threat, not anything galactic. 1 Tomb World would do little and just be another bloody war for the Imperium, but the result would be inevitable and little more would come of it.

purple, You've kinda proved my point....

Damaged tombworld?! Did the lost primarchs damage said damaged tombworld?

Necrons can now be given personality both in homebrew fluff and conversions. This is good.

The loss of the tragedy/hamartia element is bad.

Harriticus wrote:

purplefood wrote:You could always do themed armies with Necrons...
Every army had a way of explaining a particularly themed army...
With Necrons it was always the 'damaged tombworld' thing but it never came up that much since very few people collected them.

Yes, and that's a problem and a weak solution. Before the Necrons were a galactic level threat. A malfunctioning tombworld that still behaved like machines out to harvest life instead of a misunderstood market-economy civilization still would just be a local threat, not anything galactic. 1 Tomb World would do little and just be another bloody war for the Imperium, but the result would be inevitable and little more would come of it.

In the previous fluff i thought it worked quite well...
Every Lord in a Tomb world had a duty, if the tomb was damaged in some way he would simply keep going about this duty no matter what and with the next best availible resources he could. Now... not so much...

Melissia wrote:That happens all the time. There's many, many warbosses and warlords over the galaxy taht unite in sector-threatening WAAAGH!s.

I meant truly unite. As in all or at least most Orks in the Galaxy unite as a unified Waaagh! Of course that is never going to happen, it'd be unfluffy of the Orks and GW wouldn't have it.

Stop equating Chaos with Chaos Whinyboy Marines..

The Chaos Gods aren't all that concerned with the affairs of mankind, so without the CSM they'll never be that big a threat. Daemonic incursions are limited to the vagaries of the Warp and heretic forces will always crumble without proper leadership.

Harriticus wrote:I meant truly unite.

Oh, okay. Then you're just wrong.

Harriticus wrote:The Chaos Gods aren't all that concerned with the affairs of mankind, so without the CSM they'll never be that big a threat.

Yeah, except no.

For example:

Chaos-- WITHOUT the whinyboy marines-- reconquered the sector containing the Sabbat Worlds after Sabbat's death. In the second crusade, even WITH the re-appearance of Sabbat, they're still putting up a damned good fight.

Harriticus wrote:The Chaos Gods aren't all that concerned with the affairs of mankind, so without the CSM they'll never be that big a threat. Daemonic incursions are limited to the vagaries of the Warp and heretic forces will always crumble without proper leadership.

What? The Chaos Gods are only interested in the affairs of mankind, since we weeded out most of the warp vulnerable aliens in the crusade. Even Slaanesh doesn't pay as much attention to influencing the Eldar as it does to the humans, mostly because the two kinds of Eldar both have protection from it.

And there's been plenty of heretical non CSM movements that haven't crumbled, just as there's been plenty of CSM groups that crumbled (The Emperor's Children and World Eaters, for starters). The vast majority of Chaos forces are the Lost and the Damned.

I always thought more would eb made of the Saint coming back...
I mean, the Tanith 1st were practically her chosen regiment. They have her blessing, they defended her remains and they defended her reincarnation and to cap it all off one of their own is her bodyguard...
But they get assigned to flank actions rather than the 'frontline' as it were...

Molten Butter wrote:

Harriticus wrote:The Chaos Gods aren't all that concerned with the affairs of mankind, so without the CSM they'll never be that big a threat. Daemonic incursions are limited to the vagaries of the Warp and heretic forces will always crumble without proper leadership.

What? The Chaos Gods are only interested in the affairs of mankind, since we weeded out most of the warp vulnerable aliens in the crusade. Even Slaanesh doesn't pay as much attention to influencing the Eldar as it does to the humans, mostly because the two kinds of Eldar both have protection from it.

And there's been plenty of heretical non CSM movements that haven't crumbled, just as there's been plenty of CSM groups that crumbled (The Emperor's Children and World Eaters, for starters). The vast majority of Chaos forces are the Lost and the Damned.

Nah, they aren't. Even the Horus Heresy garnered but a moment of their attentions. The Great Game is what the Gods and their Daemonic servants are concerned about, they only come together for moments of great concern, and those moments are fleeting. Look to the Daemons of Chaos codex for more.

Melissia wrote:Yeah, except no.

For example:

Chaos-- WITHOUT the whinyboy marines-- reconquered the sector containing the Sabbat Worlds after Sabbat's death. In the second crusade, even WITH the re-appearance of Sabbat, they're still putting up a damned good fight.

And with the "whinyboy marines" as you call them, they laid the Imperium low and the Emperor was confined to a chair for ten thousand years.

Without the Chaos Marines, the Horus Heresy couldn't of happened.

Abaddon is considered to be the greatest threat to the Imperium, the only reason he gets stopped at Cadia (Not that all of his Crusades involved getting past it) is because the Imperium defends the Cadian Gate more than it does anywhere else.

The Chaos Marines are the most hated and among the most dangerous of Chaos' servants. This is canon, your own rather weird bias against them notwithstanding.

Chaos marines are a big threat to the galaxy as well, without them constantly coming through the eye of terror and trying to take cadia, than the Imperiums resources could be spread out more, thus lessening the threat of say, the 'nids...

Void__Dragon wrote:Without the Chaos Marines, the Horus Heresy couldn't of happened.

So? Chaos would have found another way to try to stop the Emperor's meteoric rise in power. It wouldn't have been called the Horus Heresy because there wouldn't be any Horus, but it'd still have happened.

The "I'm 10,000 years old and angry at my dad" marines were just the tools that happened to be in the right place at the right time to do the job, and weak enough of will that they succumbed to Chaos.

Melissia wrote:So? Chaos would have found another way to try to stop the Emperor's meteoric rise in power. It wouldn't have been called the Horus Heresy because there wouldn't be any Horus, but it'd still have happened.

The "I'm 10,000 years old and angry at my dad" marines were just the tools that happened to be in the right place at the right time to do the job, and weak enough of will that they succumbed to Chaos.

How so? The Primarchs were the most effective tools Chaos could use, and they couldn't do anything to the Emperor himself directly. He was too strong, in the Materium beyond their reach, and was psychically devastating their Realm. Which is why the Horus Heresy was instigated.

Most Traitor Marines rebelled because their loyalty for their Primarch was greater than their loyalty to the Emperor. They are angry at the Imperium for a variety of reasons, or, as is more often the case, they are just insane.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Melissia wrote:So? Chaos would have found another way to try to stop the Emperor's meteoric rise in power. It wouldn't have been called the Horus Heresy because there wouldn't be any Horus, but it'd still have happened.

The "I'm 10,000 years old and angry at my dad" marines were just the tools that happened to be in the right place at the right time to do the job, and weak enough of will that they succumbed to Chaos.

How so? The Primarchs were the most effective tools Chaos could use

Not the only ones though. They have aliens adn demons and so on and so forth. The traitor Primarchs just happened to be there already, with minds weak enough to be corrupted. Their presence removed, some other tool would have been used for the purpose.

I never said it'd be equally effective, but the Emperor was a huge target that was actually threatening the Chaos Gods, thus they united against him.

Melissia wrote:Not the only ones though. They have aliens adn demons and so on and so forth. The traitor Primarchs just happened to be there already, with minds weak enough to be corrupted. Their presence removed, some other tool would have been used for the purpose.

I never said it'd be equally effective, but the Emperor was a huge target that was actually threatening the Chaos Gods, thus they united against him.

What leads you to believe the Primarchs are of weak mind?

Only the Grey Knights and the Necrons are completely immune to Chaos' corruption, the Grey Knights due to specialising in fighting it, conditioning, and training, and the Necrons due to not having any Warp presence whatsoever and being completely Material.

A lot of them either required the direct manipulation of a Chaos God to fall, or already had bad blood towards the Emperor and/or their brothers. Or against the how the Imperium was forming in general.

Sure, they would have tried, but they would of been a lot less successful, IMO.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Melissia wrote:Not the only ones though. They have aliens adn demons and so on and so forth. The traitor Primarchs just happened to be there already, with minds weak enough to be corrupted. Their presence removed, some other tool would have been used for the purpose.

I never said it'd be equally effective, but the Emperor was a huge target that was actually threatening the Chaos Gods, thus they united against him.

What leads you to believe the Primarchs are of weak mind?

Only the Grey Knights and the Necrons are completely immune to Chaos' corruption, the Grey Knights due to specialising in fighting it, conditioning, and training, and the Necrons due to not having any Warp presence whatsoever and being completely Material.

A lot of them either required the direct manipulation of a Chaos God to fall, or already had bad blood towards the Emperor and/or their brothers. Or against the how the Imperium was forming in general.

Sure, they would have tried, but they would of been a lot less successful, IMO.

I'm pretty sure 'nids and tau can't be effected by Chaos either...

Nids can be corrupted by Warp energy. Tau can also be corrupted. Their pressence in the Warp is weak, it makes it more difficult.

bombboy1252 wrote:I'm pretty sure 'nids and tau can't be effected by Chaos either...

Tyranids I think you are right about, I forgot about them somehow.

Tau can though.

It's not like they're Pariahs or Blanks or anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:Nids can be corrupted by Warp energy.

Huh, they can?

Void__Dragon wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Nids can be corrupted by Warp energy.

Huh, they can?

There was a Chaos corrupted Hive Ship in Storm of Iron. The Iron Warriors used it to transport Titans.

Coolyo294 wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Nids can be corrupted by Warp energy.

Huh, they can?

There was a Chaos corrupted Hive Ship in Storm of Iron. The Iron Warriors used it to transport Titans.

!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!HUH!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

I now know what I'm basing my future hive fleet on.......

Void__Dragon wrote:What leads you to believe the Primarchs are of weak mind?

The Horus Heresy novels.

I was really only referring to the traitor primarchs anyway..

Melissia wrote:The Horus Heresy novels.

I was really only referring to the traitor primarchs anyway..

I caught that.

I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree. Other than Fulgrim and maybe Lorgar, I wouldn't say the traitor primarchs were especially weak-minded.

Going to withhold judgement but i like Necrons as they are. Unfeeling metal beings seeking only to kill you. Making it so you only win by destroying them VERY Thoroughly. I liked the beset by all sides with more coming from within thing they had but as long as ward has nothing to do with it i will probably accept it.

Varrick wrote: Going to withhold judgement but i like Necrons as they are. Unfeeling metal beings seeking only to kill you. Making it so you only win by destroying them VERY Thoroughly. I liked the beset by all sides with more coming from within thing they had but as long as ward has nothing to do with it i will probably accept it.

Then pull on your unaccepting boots

Ward wrote it.

As to how good a job he did (given he apparently asked for fluff-writing help) we'll have to see..

Ascalam wrote:

Varrick wrote: Going to withhold judgement but i like Necrons as they are. Unfeeling metal beings seeking only to kill you. Making it so you only win by destroying them VERY Thoroughly. I liked the beset by all sides with more coming from within thing they had but as long as ward has nothing to do with it i will probably accept it.

Then pull on your unaccepting boots

Ward wrote it.

As to how good a job he did (given he apparently asked for fluff-writing help) we'll have to see..

I have the torch ready and my pitchfork sharpened. Who did he get help from?

Someone competent, we can only hope

That he actually asked for help is a good sign