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The problem with GW's 40k setting is that everythings power level is based on the juvenile "bigger is better" mentality. The ships are bigger, the weapons have incomprehensible yields, the technology is "more advanced." There was a 40k vs Star Trek thread a while back where I hashed out a number of enormous problems within GW's established canon.

Let's consider the Imperial Battleship example here - BY ITSELF, it exemplefies everything wrong with 40k.

Problem 1. Weapon profiles make no sense.

Going by descriptions of their effect, a battleship's main weapons seem to generate anywhere between 0.1sol (sun's energy output for 1s) to 0.001sol. Torps on the other hand are rated at 600GT. This is a huge difference in weapon yield. Considering that the main guns, gun batteries and torpedoes are supposed to be effective vs. opposing ships (from the 40k universe), it either stands to reason that: Void shields are rated to 0.1 to 0.001sol (to counter main gun fire) and that armor is millions of times weaker than the shield ratings, or the main guns power is overstated by many magnitudes. Lots of 40k fans will state that the smaller ordinance is fired millions of shells at a time. Sure, but a million weak shells doesn't equal a single shot a million times in power. You could fire millions of AK-47 rounds at an Abrahms tank all day long without harming it in the slightest. That same tank wouldn't be nearly so resistant vs an APFSDS round.

Problem 2. No actual thought given to fuel, ordinance, food and water storage.

The ship is huge, and has a crew in the tens of thousands with support staff. Operating periods are given to be in the months between resupply. Given the above weapon yields, and the descriptions in the fluff of week long engagements - despite the size of the ship - there is just not enough space to contain the fuel, ordinance or food for such an extended period, with fuel being the biggest issue. GW interchangably uses Fusion Reactor / Plasma Reactor. Fusion isn't exactly the most efficient sci-fi method out there - it just sounds cool. Plasma is just superheated gas. Basically, absent completely ignoring the laws of thermodynamics (which the writers are obviously doing, giving us gems like being able to recharge a lasgun in a fire), the amount of fuel needed for a ship this size during NON-COMBAT OPERATIONS already strains credibility. Given the extrapolted upper limit of 0.1Sol output void shields / lances (considering the SUN IS A HUGE FUSION REACTOR...) is pretty much laughable. To make things worse, the ship also needs to accomodate space for weapons, ordinance (the aforementioned millions of shells / torpedoes etc), navigation, stardrive, crew quarters, hangars, transport for IG etc. GW pretty much no mention to resupply is mentioned at all - never mind that a KEY ELEMENT of warp travel is that it is supremely unreliable.

Problem 3. No actual thought is given to resources needed to build, let alone operate a ship of this size.

We'll just ignore this for now, as 40k's answer is just to throw manpower at it. Their writers are clearly assuming infinite resources, infinite manpower and infinite energy and food. For the sake of arguement, we can assume that this isn't actually a problem, when realistically, just supplying the raw materials and sustenance for the crews is logistically improbable. Just because you have a ship a 1000 times bigger, in a forgeworld that is 100 times bigger doesn't mean that you can keep cranking out big ships - especially when they are stated to be pretty much reliant on outside supply of food and materials (in the latter case, many magnitudes more materials). Most likely case is when they go to build a new battlecruiser, they get a YOU MUST CONSTRUCT ADDITIONAL PYLONS style situation... and as soon as they go to do that, they find they have INSUFFICIENT MINERALS.

So. My take on this is:

The Imperium is millions of times weaker in the Star Wars universe than in its own. In fact, the ridiculous hyperbole involved with describing the capabilities of the Imperial war machine is more a hinderance than a help here - as forcing the Imperium to operate according to the known laws of physics and normal supply chain will pretty much cause the Imperial Forces to self destruct.

OTOH, the Imperium is pretty much invincible in the 40k universe.

Star Wars "science" is just as ridiculous

Star Wars "science" is just as ridiculous

and 40K is stagnant?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
http://forums.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=166235

well..think I found some subject matter experts on this topic.

So what I gathered from that discussion is that High-end 40k calcs(most powerful/uber level) puts them at the point where a single Cruiser could take the Death Stat out, and low end calcs put Star Wars ISDs pretty much even with an IoM cruiser, possably a slight advantage.

also that 40k ships tend to move through space at .57c(where c = speed of light)

Galactic Stormtroopers hit on 6s, IoM Stormtroopers hit on 3s.

Depends. Pre- the Imperium's 3 Blackstone Fortresses being destroyed/self-destructing, definitely the Imperium. After that, likely still the Imperium, but a closer fight.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Since "Force Unleashed".

We've had this conversation before, I would suggest finding the previous thread on it.

Is that even canon? And even then, I'm calling BS.

If they were really that powerful...how did they get slaughtered? No really, why didn't they just force push the Clone Troopers away against the walls when they turned traitor?

If they are powerful enough to pull a friggen starship out of orbit then they should be able to take out a bunch of foot soldiers without any difficulty.

Because they weren't expecting it, even jedi have to sleep/take a dump sometimes

Also, if it's Old republic era, Star Wars; GE era, IOM

Also battles may be won by landslides depending on who's commanding which army. Lord Creed can make a Titan pop out from behind a street light but Grand Admiral Thrawn can tell exactly what species is commanding a ship and which tactic to use against them and when simply by comparing methods of the enemy to various art forms... Tactical Genius battle of the century right there.

keezus wrote:The problem with GW's 40k setting is that everythings power level is based on the juvenile "bigger is better" mentality. The ships are bigger, the weapons have incomprehensible yields, the technology is "more advanced." There was a 40k vs Star Trek thread a while back where I hashed out a number of enormous problems within GW's established canon.

Let's consider the Imperial Battleship example here - BY ITSELF, it exemplefies everything wrong with 40k.

Problem 1. Weapon profiles make no sense.

Going by descriptions of their effect, a battleship's main weapons seem to generate anywhere between 0.1sol (sun's energy output for 1s) to 0.001sol. Torps on the other hand are rated at 600GT. This is a huge difference in weapon yield. Considering that the main guns, gun batteries and torpedoes are supposed to be effective vs. opposing ships (from the 40k universe), it either stands to reason that: Void shields are rated to 0.1 to 0.001sol (to counter main gun fire) and that armor is millions of times weaker than the shield ratings, or the main guns power is overstated by many magnitudes. Lots of 40k fans will state that the smaller ordinance is fired millions of shells at a time. Sure, but a million weak shells doesn't equal a single shot a million times in power. You could fire millions of AK-47 rounds at an Abrahms tank all day long without harming it in the slightest. That same tank wouldn't be nearly so resistant vs an APFSDS round.

Problem 2. No actual thought given to fuel, ordinance, food and water storage.

The ship is huge, and has a crew in the tens of thousands with support staff. Operating periods are given to be in the months between resupply. Given the above weapon yields, and the descriptions in the fluff of week long engagements - despite the size of the ship - there is just not enough space to contain the fuel, ordinance or food for such an extended period, with fuel being the biggest issue. GW interchangably uses Fusion Reactor / Plasma Reactor. Fusion isn't exactly the most efficient sci-fi method out there - it just sounds cool. Plasma is just superheated gas. Basically, absent completely ignoring the laws of thermodynamics (which the writers are obviously doing, giving us gems like being able to recharge a lasgun in a fire), the amount of fuel needed for a ship this size during NON-COMBAT OPERATIONS already strains credibility. Given the extrapolted upper limit of 0.1Sol output void shields / lances (considering the SUN IS A HUGE FUSION REACTOR...) is pretty much laughable. To make things worse, the ship also needs to accomodate space for weapons, ordinance (the aforementioned millions of shells / torpedoes etc), navigation, stardrive, crew quarters, hangars, transport for IG etc. GW pretty much no mention to resupply is mentioned at all - never mind that a KEY ELEMENT of warp travel is that it is supremely unreliable.

Problem 3. No actual thought is given to resources needed to build, let alone operate a ship of this size.

We'll just ignore this for now, as 40k's answer is just to throw manpower at it. Their writers are clearly assuming infinite resources, infinite manpower and infinite energy and food. For the sake of arguement, we can assume that this isn't actually a problem, when realistically, just supplying the raw materials and sustenance for the crews is logistically improbable. Just because you have a ship a 1000 times bigger, in a forgeworld that is 100 times bigger doesn't mean that you can keep cranking out big ships - especially when they are stated to be pretty much reliant on outside supply of food and materials (in the latter case, many magnitudes more materials). Most likely case is when they go to build a new battlecruiser, they get a YOU MUST CONSTRUCT ADDITIONAL PYLONS style situation... and as soon as they go to do that, they find they have INSUFFICIENT MINERALS.

So. My take on this is:

The Imperium is millions of times weaker in the Star Wars universe than in its own. In fact, the ridiculous hyperbole involved with describing the capabilities of the Imperial war machine is more a hinderance than a help here - as forcing the Imperium to operate according to the known laws of physics and normal supply chain will pretty much cause the Imperial Forces to self destruct.

OTOH, the Imperium is pretty much invincible in the 40k universe.

I agree with you as bigger often isn't better at war (real-world wars have proven that). Given that the resources of IoM worlds are limited, they should build smaller but more efficient ships. Even if they would be as comfortable as submarine, the Imperials would spend less resources and be able to construct more ships. I doubt that other races except Orks have such goofy ships as the IoM does.
But I have an addition to your thoughts. Why do the Imperials like to decorate their ships with huge temples, banners and angel statues? Is it a rational use of resources?
I will understand that if this is a missionary ship constructed to look solemn and impressive, but what's with simple military ships? Should they be decorated as Gothic cathedrals and why?

Grey Templar wrote:So what I gathered from that discussion is that High-end 40k calcs(most powerful/uber level) puts them at the point where a single Cruiser could take the Death Stat out, and low end calcs put Star Wars ISDs pretty much even with an IoM cruiser, possably a slight advantage.

also that 40k ships tend to move through space at .57c(where c = speed of light)

Those calcs are highly suspect. The whole thing falls apart as soon as you pit 40k ships against their counterparts. Ignoring the implausibility that fusion reactors could generate so much power... it still makes no sense to have such a huge spread in weapon yields, considering that if the lower yield weapons are effective, higher yield ones are inefficient, and if the higher yield weapons are needed, the lower yield ones are ineffective.

Why do the Imperials like to decorate their ships with huge temples, banners and angel statues? Is it a rational use of resources?

The Imperium is a society built upon their faith in the God-Emperor.

Psienesis wrote:

Why do the Imperials like to decorate their ships with huge temples, banners and angel statues? Is it a rational use of resources?

The Imperium is a society built upon their faith in the God-Emperor.

And they also like all their ships, buildings and vehicles to be pimp-up with Emeperor's Gothic style things.

Farseer Petriel wrote:

keezus wrote:The problem with GW's 40k setting is that everythings power level is based on the juvenile "bigger is better" mentality. The ships are bigger, the weapons have incomprehensible yields, the technology is "more advanced." There was a 40k vs Star Trek thread a while back where I hashed out a number of enormous problems within GW's established canon.

Let's consider the Imperial Battleship example here - BY ITSELF, it exemplefies everything wrong with 40k.

Problem 1. Weapon profiles make no sense.

Going by descriptions of their effect, a battleship's main weapons seem to generate anywhere between 0.1sol (sun's energy output for 1s) to 0.001sol. Torps on the other hand are rated at 600GT. This is a huge difference in weapon yield. Considering that the main guns, gun batteries and torpedoes are supposed to be effective vs. opposing ships (from the 40k universe), it either stands to reason that: Void shields are rated to 0.1 to 0.001sol (to counter main gun fire) and that armor is millions of times weaker than the shield ratings, or the main guns power is overstated by many magnitudes. Lots of 40k fans will state that the smaller ordinance is fired millions of shells at a time. Sure, but a million weak shells doesn't equal a single shot a million times in power. You could fire millions of AK-47 rounds at an Abrahms tank all day long without harming it in the slightest. That same tank wouldn't be nearly so resistant vs an APFSDS round.

Problem 2. No actual thought given to fuel, ordinance, food and water storage.

The ship is huge, and has a crew in the tens of thousands with support staff. Operating periods are given to be in the months between resupply. Given the above weapon yields, and the descriptions in the fluff of week long engagements - despite the size of the ship - there is just not enough space to contain the fuel, ordinance or food for such an extended period, with fuel being the biggest issue. GW interchangably uses Fusion Reactor / Plasma Reactor. Fusion isn't exactly the most efficient sci-fi method out there - it just sounds cool. Plasma is just superheated gas. Basically, absent completely ignoring the laws of thermodynamics (which the writers are obviously doing, giving us gems like being able to recharge a lasgun in a fire), the amount of fuel needed for a ship this size during NON-COMBAT OPERATIONS already strains credibility. Given the extrapolted upper limit of 0.1Sol output void shields / lances (considering the SUN IS A HUGE FUSION REACTOR...) is pretty much laughable. To make things worse, the ship also needs to accomodate space for weapons, ordinance (the aforementioned millions of shells / torpedoes etc), navigation, stardrive, crew quarters, hangars, transport for IG etc. GW pretty much no mention to resupply is mentioned at all - never mind that a KEY ELEMENT of warp travel is that it is supremely unreliable.

Problem 3. No actual thought is given to resources needed to build, let alone operate a ship of this size.

We'll just ignore this for now, as 40k's answer is just to throw manpower at it. Their writers are clearly assuming infinite resources, infinite manpower and infinite energy and food. For the sake of arguement, we can assume that this isn't actually a problem, when realistically, just supplying the raw materials and sustenance for the crews is logistically improbable. Just because you have a ship a 1000 times bigger, in a forgeworld that is 100 times bigger doesn't mean that you can keep cranking out big ships - especially when they are stated to be pretty much reliant on outside supply of food and materials (in the latter case, many magnitudes more materials). Most likely case is when they go to build a new battlecruiser, they get a YOU MUST CONSTRUCT ADDITIONAL PYLONS style situation... and as soon as they go to do that, they find they have INSUFFICIENT MINERALS.

So. My take on this is:

The Imperium is millions of times weaker in the Star Wars universe than in its own. In fact, the ridiculous hyperbole involved with describing the capabilities of the Imperial war machine is more a hinderance than a help here - as forcing the Imperium to operate according to the known laws of physics and normal supply chain will pretty much cause the Imperial Forces to self destruct.

OTOH, the Imperium is pretty much invincible in the 40k universe.

I agree with you as bigger often isn't better at war (real-world wars have proven that). Given that the resources of IoM worlds are limited, they should build smaller but more efficient ships. Even if they would be as comfortable as submarine, the Imperials would spend less resources and be able to construct more ships. I doubt that other races except Orks have such goofy ships as the IoM does.
But I have an addition to your thoughts. Why do the Imperials like to decorate their ships with huge temples, banners and angel statues? Is it a rational use of resources?
I will understand that if this is a missionary ship constructed to look solemn and impressive, but what's with simple military ships? Should they be decorated as Gothic cathedrals and why?

The ships themselves are ancient, venerable, and sacred. There are alot of ships that have been around since the Emperor walked amoung men, its natural they will decorate them.

The fact that they have survived for thousands of years suggests that their designs are sturdy, never assume that decadence = flimsy. a pretty ship can also be a deadly one.


And lets face it, the Imperium just likes to pimp everything out. Deadly Beauty.

Yes I know its about the Federation, but see the Star Destroyer at the bottom?

Now nothings to say a SW turbolaser doesn't punch out the other side of an IoM battleship, but nothing says it does either.

Just food for thought, really can see this going either way... just a matter of psyker versus Jedi IMO.

I wonder what happens if a IoM ship rams through a formation of Star Destroyers, in their nice tight formations.

its going to be a horrible horrible mess.


Size alone might cause the crew of SW ships to surrender. I mean what else are you supposed to do when a ship 20 times your tonnage, scratch that; a half dozen ships 20 times your tonnage accompanied by 20 or so ships equal to your tonnage, suddenly appearing out of a cross-dimensional gateway with absolutly no warning?(SW sensors wouldn't detect a warp jump)

Shock and Awe FTW!!!

Grey Templar wrote:Size alone might cause the crew of SW ships to surrender. I mean what else are you supposed to do when a ship 20 times your tonnage, scratch that; a half dozen ships 20 times your tonnage accompanied by 20 or so ships equal to your tonnage, suddenly appearing out of a cross-dimensional gateway with absolutly no warning?(SW sensors wouldn't detect a warp jump)

You almost make it sound like Warp travel is precise and reliable.

keezus wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Size alone might cause the crew of SW ships to surrender. I mean what else are you supposed to do when a ship 20 times your tonnage, scratch that; a half dozen ships 20 times your tonnage accompanied by 20 or so ships equal to your tonnage, suddenly appearing out of a cross-dimensional gateway with absolutly no warning?(SW sensors wouldn't detect a warp jump)

You almost make it sound like Warp travel is precise and reliable.

Define "Precise" and "Reliable"


If by precise you mean "I can appear within 3,000 kilometers of my destination coordinates 85% of the time" then yeah, its precise.

If by reliable you mean "We only have a 10% chance of getting lost" then yeah, its reliable.



You seem to think that a huge % of all IoM warp jumps have something terrible go wrong. I am sure that the success percentage is in the 90s.

The chance of something happening goes up if you are operating in areas of warp trubulance, but why should we assume that it isn't calm in the theoretical area that this conflict is taking place?

Psienesis wrote:

Why do the Imperials like to decorate their ships with huge temples, banners and angel statues? Is it a rational use of resources?

The Imperium is a society built upon their faith in the God-Emperor.

Brother Coa wrote:

Psienesis wrote:

Why do the Imperials like to decorate their ships with huge temples, banners and angel statues? Is it a rational use of resources?

The Imperium is a society built upon their faith in the God-Emperor.

And they also like all their ships, buildings and vehicles to be pimp-up with Emeperor's Gothic style things.

Grey Templar wrote:

Farseer Petriel wrote:

keezus wrote:The problem with GW's 40k setting is that everythings power level is based on the juvenile "bigger is better" mentality. The ships are bigger, the weapons have incomprehensible yields, the technology is "more advanced." There was a 40k vs Star Trek thread a while back where I hashed out a number of enormous problems within GW's established canon.

Let's consider the Imperial Battleship example here - BY ITSELF, it exemplefies everything wrong with 40k.

Problem 1. Weapon profiles make no sense.

Going by descriptions of their effect, a battleship's main weapons seem to generate anywhere between 0.1sol (sun's energy output for 1s) to 0.001sol. Torps on the other hand are rated at 600GT. This is a huge difference in weapon yield. Considering that the main guns, gun batteries and torpedoes are supposed to be effective vs. opposing ships (from the 40k universe), it either stands to reason that: Void shields are rated to 0.1 to 0.001sol (to counter main gun fire) and that armor is millions of times weaker than the shield ratings, or the main guns power is overstated by many magnitudes. Lots of 40k fans will state that the smaller ordinance is fired millions of shells at a time. Sure, but a million weak shells doesn't equal a single shot a million times in power. You could fire millions of AK-47 rounds at an Abrahms tank all day long without harming it in the slightest. That same tank wouldn't be nearly so resistant vs an APFSDS round.

Problem 2. No actual thought given to fuel, ordinance, food and water storage.

The ship is huge, and has a crew in the tens of thousands with support staff. Operating periods are given to be in the months between resupply. Given the above weapon yields, and the descriptions in the fluff of week long engagements - despite the size of the ship - there is just not enough space to contain the fuel, ordinance or food for such an extended period, with fuel being the biggest issue. GW interchangably uses Fusion Reactor / Plasma Reactor. Fusion isn't exactly the most efficient sci-fi method out there - it just sounds cool. Plasma is just superheated gas. Basically, absent completely ignoring the laws of thermodynamics (which the writers are obviously doing, giving us gems like being able to recharge a lasgun in a fire), the amount of fuel needed for a ship this size during NON-COMBAT OPERATIONS already strains credibility. Given the extrapolted upper limit of 0.1Sol output void shields / lances (considering the SUN IS A HUGE FUSION REACTOR...) is pretty much laughable. To make things worse, the ship also needs to accomodate space for weapons, ordinance (the aforementioned millions of shells / torpedoes etc), navigation, stardrive, crew quarters, hangars, transport for IG etc. GW pretty much no mention to resupply is mentioned at all - never mind that a KEY ELEMENT of warp travel is that it is supremely unreliable.

Problem 3. No actual thought is given to resources needed to build, let alone operate a ship of this size.

We'll just ignore this for now, as 40k's answer is just to throw manpower at it. Their writers are clearly assuming infinite resources, infinite manpower and infinite energy and food. For the sake of arguement, we can assume that this isn't actually a problem, when realistically, just supplying the raw materials and sustenance for the crews is logistically improbable. Just because you have a ship a 1000 times bigger, in a forgeworld that is 100 times bigger doesn't mean that you can keep cranking out big ships - especially when they are stated to be pretty much reliant on outside supply of food and materials (in the latter case, many magnitudes more materials). Most likely case is when they go to build a new battlecruiser, they get a YOU MUST CONSTRUCT ADDITIONAL PYLONS style situation... and as soon as they go to do that, they find they have INSUFFICIENT MINERALS.

So. My take on this is:

The Imperium is millions of times weaker in the Star Wars universe than in its own. In fact, the ridiculous hyperbole involved with describing the capabilities of the Imperial war machine is more a hinderance than a help here - as forcing the Imperium to operate according to the known laws of physics and normal supply chain will pretty much cause the Imperial Forces to self destruct.

OTOH, the Imperium is pretty much invincible in the 40k universe.

I agree with you as bigger often isn't better at war (real-world wars have proven that). Given that the resources of IoM worlds are limited, they should build smaller but more efficient ships. Even if they would be as comfortable as submarine, the Imperials would spend less resources and be able to construct more ships. I doubt that other races except Orks have such goofy ships as the IoM does.
But I have an addition to your thoughts. Why do the Imperials like to decorate their ships with huge temples, banners and angel statues? Is it a rational use of resources?
I will understand that if this is a missionary ship constructed to look solemn and impressive, but what's with simple military ships? Should they be decorated as Gothic cathedrals and why?

The ships themselves are ancient, venerable, and sacred. There are alot of ships that have been around since the Emperor walked amoung men, its natural they will decorate them.

The fact that they have survived for thousands of years suggests that their designs are sturdy, never assume that decadence = flimsy. a pretty ship can also be a deadly one.


And lets face it, the Imperium just likes to pimp everything out. Deadly Beauty.

Psienesis wrote:

Why do the Imperials like to decorate their ships with huge temples, banners and angel statues? Is it a rational use of resources?

The Imperium is a society built upon their faith in the God-Emperor.

So you don't see any rational reasons to do that. I don't find them too.
P.S. Though many Middle-Eastern states are built upon the Muslim faith, they don't have tanks and ships looking like Arabian palaces and mosques - it would be impractical and ridiculous.

Grey Templar wrote:If by precise you mean "I can appear within 3,000 kilometers of my destination coordinates 85% of the time" then yeah, its precise.
If by reliable you mean "We only have a 10% chance of getting lost" then yeah, its reliable.

Reliable = Throwing 10 darts at a dart board and getting all of them on the board - not necessarily in the same spot, but they are all on the board.
Precise = Throwing 10 darts at a dart board and getting them all clustered in one spot - not necessarily even on the board, but they are all in one spot.
I concede that in 40k fluff, Warp travel could be considered "reliable". Precise, IMHO, not so much.

Warp travel is travelling outside the known universe through the immaterium and then popping back out somewhere else in space time. The reason why the IoM usually doesn't get lost is because they can latch onto the psychic beacon of the Astronomicon which continues to exist as a fixed point in the immaterium. Depending on distortions to the Astronomicon while in the immaterium, the exit point will be proportionally displaced in space/time. Considering that the distortions are completely random, due to the nature of the warp, your exit point will vary widely. Even if we assume that all distortions are minor and one appears in a 3000km radius of the intended location, +/-5 minutes... at 0.1c sublight speeds, that still puts over 8 million km between you and your intended foe.

If the Astronomicon signal is lost, then the ships have a very high chance of never returning to our material plane. Ergo, unless one assumes that the Astronomicon reaches "A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away"... While it might be argued that it reaches a galaxy far, far away (since the psychic signature of the Great Devourer can be detected in our galaxy), it is unlikely that it reaches "long ago" from the "grim darkness of the far future", considering that the Imperium didn't use the present system of warp travel until the Astronomicon was put into place - I can only conclude that in this context, Warp travel can not be considered reliable in the least.

The Astronomican doesn't even cover the entire Milky Way. There are regions to the far eastern fringe of the Segmentum Ultima and the galactic north-east that are "outside the light of the Emperor", and Navigators have to rely on local fixed points and guess-work in order to safely navigate the Warp.

Why is it we are putting this hypothetical matchup in some place beyond the reach of the Astronomican?

And, FYI, Warp Travel isn't impossable without the Astronomican. Warp Travel functioned just fine in the 10,000 years prior to the Astronomican being created. All it does is help in times and places where the Warp is turbulant, it functions like a lighthouse. In calm/mild weather you don't need it, its only useful during a storm.


And 8 million kilometers of accuracy isn't really important if you consider the speed of IoM ships, if they really are traveling at a significant fraction of the speed of light 8 million Kilometers is going to be nothing.

On the subject of IoM ships being decorated all pretty like. Do recall that warp travel sucks, and almost all IoM ships are built with gargoyles and/or religious iconography to ward of daemonic incursions while traveling. The theory is they scare the daemons away, this is in addition to the Geller Field of course.

This being 40k it works of course.

Grey Templar wrote:Why is it we are putting this hypothetical matchup in some place beyond the reach of the Astronomican?

And, FYI, Warp Travel isn't impossable without the Astronomican. Warp Travel functioned just fine in the 10,000 years prior to the Astronomican being created. All it does is help in times and places where the Warp is turbulant, it functions like a lighthouse. In calm/mild weather you don't need it, its only useful during a storm.


And 8 million kilometers of accuracy isn't really important if you consider the speed of IoM ships, if they really are traveling at a significant fraction of the speed of light 8 million Kilometers is going to be nothing.

Also, Chaos worshippers tend to travel through the Warp, and it seems unlikely they'd be using the Astronomican. I suppose the Eye might serve a similar purpose perhaps.

Anyway, surely the Galactic Empire are at a severe disadvantage due to their lack of teleportation tech. They don't have the shields to prevent it, so some Space Marines could just teleport on board and JOTWW the Emperor (Palaptine)

Grey Templar wrote:I wonder what happens if a IoM ship rams through a formation of Star Destroyers, in their nice tight formations.

its going to be a horrible horrible mess.


Size alone might cause the crew of SW ships to surrender. I mean what else are you supposed to do when a ship 20 times your tonnage, scratch that; a half dozen ships 20 times your tonnage accompanied by 20 or so ships equal to your tonnage, suddenly appearing out of a cross-dimensional gateway with absolutly no warning?(SW sensors wouldn't detect a warp jump)

Shock and Awe FTW!!!

Well, as long as you keep in mind that the firepower of a single stardestroyer is possibly ( as in we have an idea on what a stardestroyer can do but the firepower of Imperial ships varies widely. Of course one could wonder if the standard armement of imperial cruisers could depopulate entire worlds, like a stardestroyer can with relatively little effort, why did the imperium create exterminatus class weapons? ). far above and beyond anything an Imperial ship can muster, i doubt that shock and awe alone will work.

Durza wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Why is it we are putting this hypothetical matchup in some place beyond the reach of the Astronomican?

And, FYI, Warp Travel isn't impossable without the Astronomican. Warp Travel functioned just fine in the 10,000 years prior to the Astronomican being created. All it does is help in times and places where the Warp is turbulant, it functions like a lighthouse. In calm/mild weather you don't need it, its only useful during a storm.


And 8 million kilometers of accuracy isn't really important if you consider the speed of IoM ships, if they really are traveling at a significant fraction of the speed of light 8 million Kilometers is going to be nothing.

Also, Chaos worshippers tend to travel through the Warp, and it seems unlikely they'd be using the Astronomican. I suppose the Eye might serve a similar purpose perhaps.

Anyway, surely the Galactic Empire are at a severe disadvantage due to their lack of teleportation tech. They don't have the shields to prevent it, so some Space Marines could just teleport on board and JOTWW the Emperor (Palaptine)

And Eldar. They also use the warp, and they certainly don't use the astrominicon or the Eye of Terror.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KingDeath wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:I wonder what happens if a IoM ship rams through a formation of Star Destroyers, in their nice tight formations.

its going to be a horrible horrible mess.


Size alone might cause the crew of SW ships to surrender. I mean what else are you supposed to do when a ship 20 times your tonnage, scratch that; a half dozen ships 20 times your tonnage accompanied by 20 or so ships equal to your tonnage, suddenly appearing out of a cross-dimensional gateway with absolutly no warning?(SW sensors wouldn't detect a warp jump)

Shock and Awe FTW!!!

Well, as long as you keep in mind that the firepower of a single stardestroyer is possibly ( as in we have an idea on what a stardestroyer can do but the firepower of Imperial ships varies widely. Of course one could wonder if the standard armement of imperial cruisers could depopulate entire worlds, like a stardestroyer can with relatively little effort, why did the imperium create exterminatus class weapons? ). far above and beyond anything an Imperial ship can muster, i doubt that shock and awe alone will work.

There is a difference between killing all life on a planet, and reducing said planet into a heap of molten slag.

Here's a hint : One is easier than the other.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Durza wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Why is it we are putting this hypothetical matchup in some place beyond the reach of the Astronomican?

And, FYI, Warp Travel isn't impossable without the Astronomican. Warp Travel functioned just fine in the 10,000 years prior to the Astronomican being created. All it does is help in times and places where the Warp is turbulant, it functions like a lighthouse. In calm/mild weather you don't need it, its only useful during a storm.


And 8 million kilometers of accuracy isn't really important if you consider the speed of IoM ships, if they really are traveling at a significant fraction of the speed of light 8 million Kilometers is going to be nothing.

Also, Chaos worshippers tend to travel through the Warp, and it seems unlikely they'd be using the Astronomican. I suppose the Eye might serve a similar purpose perhaps.

Anyway, surely the Galactic Empire are at a severe disadvantage due to their lack of teleportation tech. They don't have the shields to prevent it, so some Space Marines could just teleport on board and JOTWW the Emperor (Palaptine)

And Eldar. They also use the warp, and they certainly don't use the astrominicon or the Eye of Terror.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KingDeath wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:I wonder what happens if a IoM ship rams through a formation of Star Destroyers, in their nice tight formations.

its going to be a horrible horrible mess.


Size alone might cause the crew of SW ships to surrender. I mean what else are you supposed to do when a ship 20 times your tonnage, scratch that; a half dozen ships 20 times your tonnage accompanied by 20 or so ships equal to your tonnage, suddenly appearing out of a cross-dimensional gateway with absolutly no warning?(SW sensors wouldn't detect a warp jump)

Shock and Awe FTW!!!

Well, as long as you keep in mind that the firepower of a single stardestroyer is possibly ( as in we have an idea on what a stardestroyer can do but the firepower of Imperial ships varies widely. Of course one could wonder if the standard armement of imperial cruisers could depopulate entire worlds, like a stardestroyer can with relatively little effort, why did the imperium create exterminatus class weapons? ). far above and beyond anything an Imperial ship can muster, i doubt that shock and awe alone will work.

There is a difference between killing all life on a planet, and reducing said planet into a heap of molten slag.

Here's a hint : One is easier than the other.

Well, reducing a planet to a heap of molten slag is exactly what a base delta zero operation is supposed to do.

KingDeath wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Durza wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Why is it we are putting this hypothetical matchup in some place beyond the reach of the Astronomican?

And, FYI, Warp Travel isn't impossable without the Astronomican. Warp Travel functioned just fine in the 10,000 years prior to the Astronomican being created. All it does is help in times and places where the Warp is turbulant, it functions like a lighthouse. In calm/mild weather you don't need it, its only useful during a storm.


And 8 million kilometers of accuracy isn't really important if you consider the speed of IoM ships, if they really are traveling at a significant fraction of the speed of light 8 million Kilometers is going to be nothing.

Also, Chaos worshippers tend to travel through the Warp, and it seems unlikely they'd be using the Astronomican. I suppose the Eye might serve a similar purpose perhaps.

Anyway, surely the Galactic Empire are at a severe disadvantage due to their lack of teleportation tech. They don't have the shields to prevent it, so some Space Marines could just teleport on board and JOTWW the Emperor (Palaptine)

And Eldar. They also use the warp, and they certainly don't use the astrominicon or the Eye of Terror.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KingDeath wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:I wonder what happens if a IoM ship rams through a formation of Star Destroyers, in their nice tight formations.

its going to be a horrible horrible mess.


Size alone might cause the crew of SW ships to surrender. I mean what else are you supposed to do when a ship 20 times your tonnage, scratch that; a half dozen ships 20 times your tonnage accompanied by 20 or so ships equal to your tonnage, suddenly appearing out of a cross-dimensional gateway with absolutly no warning?(SW sensors wouldn't detect a warp jump)

Shock and Awe FTW!!!

Well, as long as you keep in mind that the firepower of a single stardestroyer is possibly ( as in we have an idea on what a stardestroyer can do but the firepower of Imperial ships varies widely. Of course one could wonder if the standard armement of imperial cruisers could depopulate entire worlds, like a stardestroyer can with relatively little effort, why did the imperium create exterminatus class weapons? ). far above and beyond anything an Imperial ship can muster, i doubt that shock and awe alone will work.

There is a difference between killing all life on a planet, and reducing said planet into a heap of molten slag.

Here's a hint : One is easier than the other.

Well, reducing a planet to a heap of molten slag is exactly what a base delta zero operation is supposed to do.

And what is this? Is it a specialized weapon, or when a bunch of ships target a planet?

You guys are taking this way too seriously. In a straight up fight, the ridiculous numbers that the IoM puts up pretty much equals curb-stomp. I just like pulling the IoM numbers apart, since they make no sense even within the context of 40k.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Warp_jump

This might help you guys out with respect to warp travel. Work outside the normal warp chanels, and outside the Astronomicon, and you're inviting issues. Seems to have limitations regarding dropping directly into systems as well.

Regarding the forces of Chaos, considering that for them, it is like travelling inside your own house, I doubt that they'd have any issues.

KingDeath wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Durza wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Why is it we are putting this hypothetical matchup in some place beyond the reach of the Astronomican?

And, FYI, Warp Travel isn't impossable without the Astronomican. Warp Travel functioned just fine in the 10,000 years prior to the Astronomican being created. All it does is help in times and places where the Warp is turbulant, it functions like a lighthouse. In calm/mild weather you don't need it, its only useful during a storm.


And 8 million kilometers of accuracy isn't really important if you consider the speed of IoM ships, if they really are traveling at a significant fraction of the speed of light 8 million Kilometers is going to be nothing.

Also, Chaos worshippers tend to travel through the Warp, and it seems unlikely they'd be using the Astronomican. I suppose the Eye might serve a similar purpose perhaps.

Anyway, surely the Galactic Empire are at a severe disadvantage due to their lack of teleportation tech. They don't have the shields to prevent it, so some Space Marines could just teleport on board and JOTWW the Emperor (Palaptine)

And Eldar. They also use the warp, and they certainly don't use the astrominicon or the Eye of Terror.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KingDeath wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:I wonder what happens if a IoM ship rams through a formation of Star Destroyers, in their nice tight formations.

its going to be a horrible horrible mess.


Size alone might cause the crew of SW ships to surrender. I mean what else are you supposed to do when a ship 20 times your tonnage, scratch that; a half dozen ships 20 times your tonnage accompanied by 20 or so ships equal to your tonnage, suddenly appearing out of a cross-dimensional gateway with absolutly no warning?(SW sensors wouldn't detect a warp jump)

Shock and Awe FTW!!!

Well, as long as you keep in mind that the firepower of a single stardestroyer is possibly ( as in we have an idea on what a stardestroyer can do but the firepower of Imperial ships varies widely. Of course one could wonder if the standard armement of imperial cruisers could depopulate entire worlds, like a stardestroyer can with relatively little effort, why did the imperium create exterminatus class weapons? ). far above and beyond anything an Imperial ship can muster, i doubt that shock and awe alone will work.

There is a difference between killing all life on a planet, and reducing said planet into a heap of molten slag.

Here's a hint : One is easier than the other.

Well, reducing a planet to a heap of molten slag is exactly what a base delta zero operation is supposed to do.

AFAIK, the Empire didn't have the ability to destroy an entire planet before the Deathstar was created(Han Solo: New Hope)

They could wipe a planet's population out, but not destroy the planet.


The Imperium can actually destroy a planet with a couple of well placed Clyclonic Torpedos, Torpedos that can be launched from just about any ship the Imperium has. Same goes for Virus bombs. All thats required is the Authorization to use said weaponry.

Grey Templar wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Durza wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Why is it we are putting this hypothetical matchup in some place beyond the reach of the Astronomican?

And, FYI, Warp Travel isn't impossable without the Astronomican. Warp Travel functioned just fine in the 10,000 years prior to the Astronomican being created. All it does is help in times and places where the Warp is turbulant, it functions like a lighthouse. In calm/mild weather you don't need it, its only useful during a storm.


And 8 million kilometers of accuracy isn't really important if you consider the speed of IoM ships, if they really are traveling at a significant fraction of the speed of light 8 million Kilometers is going to be nothing.

Also, Chaos worshippers tend to travel through the Warp, and it seems unlikely they'd be using the Astronomican. I suppose the Eye might serve a similar purpose perhaps.

Anyway, surely the Galactic Empire are at a severe disadvantage due to their lack of teleportation tech. They don't have the shields to prevent it, so some Space Marines could just teleport on board and JOTWW the Emperor (Palaptine)

And Eldar. They also use the warp, and they certainly don't use the astrominicon or the Eye of Terror.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KingDeath wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:I wonder what happens if a IoM ship rams through a formation of Star Destroyers, in their nice tight formations.

its going to be a horrible horrible mess.


Size alone might cause the crew of SW ships to surrender. I mean what else are you supposed to do when a ship 20 times your tonnage, scratch that; a half dozen ships 20 times your tonnage accompanied by 20 or so ships equal to your tonnage, suddenly appearing out of a cross-dimensional gateway with absolutly no warning?(SW sensors wouldn't detect a warp jump)

Shock and Awe FTW!!!

Well, as long as you keep in mind that the firepower of a single stardestroyer is possibly ( as in we have an idea on what a stardestroyer can do but the firepower of Imperial ships varies widely. Of course one could wonder if the standard armement of imperial cruisers could depopulate entire worlds, like a stardestroyer can with relatively little effort, why did the imperium create exterminatus class weapons? ). far above and beyond anything an Imperial ship can muster, i doubt that shock and awe alone will work.

There is a difference between killing all life on a planet, and reducing said planet into a heap of molten slag.

Here's a hint : One is easier than the other.

Well, reducing a planet to a heap of molten slag is exactly what a base delta zero operation is supposed to do.

AFAIK, the Empire didn't have the ability to destroy an entire planet before the Deathstar was created(Han Solo: New Hope)

They could wipe a planet's population out, but not destroy the planet.


The Imperium can actually destroy a planet with a couple of well placed Clyclonic Torpedos, Torpedos that can be launched from just about any ship the Imperium has. Same goes for Virus bombs. All thats required is the Authorization to use said weaponry.

Wait...they can actually destroy planets? Like, into little chunks? I thought they just made it inhospitable and volcanic, like in DoW2 retribution.