Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Medium of Death wrote:Well if it's a completely different Giger creature that is somehow not related to the Alien i'll be shocked.

Giger's work is two distinctive to plausibly represent drastically different creatures in these closely knit films.

As for LV-426 being different? Well there is that Sand storm thing.

Perhaps events in the film unleash some kind of planet altering force. A massive section of ground does open up after-all, and then that storm appears to arrive, it could be the opposite of the Atmosphere processor.

Atmosphere De-generator?

Sounds a tad silly. Meh.

The ground has a sort of biomechanoid-like formation in LV-426 so it would need to be a high-yield nuke or a massive meteor to cause such a change (but then wouldnt the derelict be destroyed?).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:

Mr Hyena wrote:Facehuggers feed oxygen to the host to keep them alive.

And where'd the facehugger get it from? Photosynethsis in the lightless bowls of the Derelict? "And then some magic happens."

Then what about the mountain discrepancy? The ship isn't even located where it should be.

The Derelict takes off, is rammed by the Prometheus, and the rolls all over the place. Is there a clear shot of where it settles? Also there are going to be some minor differences, even if we did have the GPS coodinates to hand. To wit:

Spoiler:

I believe it was mentioned in Alien that the 'hugger was keeping him alive.

I know it gets rammed. But if its going to be LV-426 I'd expect it to be somewhere near a mountain and not just flat ground and its impact crater.

Medium of Death wrote:Atmosphere De-generator?

No need. The only shots sans helmets occur inside. And we know that the atmosphere is not actually composed of anything poisonous to humans. It's just like Earth minus oxygen, a bit more argon, and some neon (which is not poisonous).

So here is a question, did Ridley make Predator or was he just Alien?

Mr Hyena wrote:I believe it was mentioned in Alien that the 'hugger was keeping him alive.

Yeah, it's covering his nose and has a phallic ovipositor crammed down his windpipe. But the trick is that there was some moment when that thing wasn't down his gullet and the helmet was breached. And whatever it fed Kane before they brought him back to the Nostromo is unlikely to be oxygen since there's no evidence of any oxygen present on LV426. It's not like the facehugger would know that humans need oxygen.

I know it gets rammed. But if its going to be LV-426 I'd expect it to be somewhere near a mountain and not just flat ground and its impact crater.

As I said, I don't know if there is a shot of the settled Derelict post-crash from the same angle as in Alien so until we find that picture the idea that "there's no cliff nearby" is moot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slarg232 wrote:So here is a question, did Ridley make Predator or was he just Alien?

Just Alien. Predator was John McTiernan (Die Hard). The second one was Stephen Hopkins (The Ghost & the Darkness).

Right I'm going to stop reading this thread now, it will ruin the film for me!

Yeah, it's covering his nose and has a phallic ovipositor crammed down his windpipe. But the trick is that there was some moment when that thing wasn't down his gullet and the helmet was breached. And whatever it fed Kane before they brought him back to the Nostromo is unlikely to be oxygen since there's no evidence of any oxygen present on LV426. It's not like the facehugger would know that humans need oxygen.

The alien is a parasitoid of any species it can physically attach to. I'm sure it knows we need oxygen.

How would it know that? Also this:

The alien is a parasitoid of any species it can physically attach to.

is pure supposition.

Pacific wrote:Right I'm going to stop reading this thread now, it will ruin the film for me!

Au contraire, your eye and ear will be primed for a finer appreciation.

Manchu wrote:How would it know that?

Its Parasitology. A parasite needs to be adapted to its host. In this case, the host will die before implantation is completed if no oxygen is supplied (humans die quite quickly to this). Its a similar case to parasitic worms of animals...if it is not meant to be in a human but does, they will wander aimlessly in the body until they die as they do not know how to complete the lifecycle.

The 'perfect organism' would therefore be adapted to any potential host.

is pure supposition.

Spike, the rottweiler. Humans. Predators. (if you add the expanded universe: Apes, Jockies, Whales, etc).

All significantly different.

A parasite does not know whether it can survive on/in a particular host. A worm that can only live in a fish might find its way into a human. It doesn't suddenly change into a worm that can also live in a human. It simply dies.

What we have here is not a case of parisitology but of script writing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr Hyena wrote:Spike, the rottweiler. Humans. Predators. (if you add the expanded universe: Apes, Jockies, Whales, etc).

As far as Ridley's source material goes, you've only got humans I'm afraid. As I said, your statement is pure supposition.

Manchu wrote:A parasite does not know whether it can survive on/in a particular host. A worm that can only live in a fish might find its way into a human. It doesn't suddenly change into a worm that can also live in a human. It simply dies.

What we have here is not a case of parisitology but of script writing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr Hyena wrote:Spike, the rottweiler. Humans. Predators. (if you add the expanded universe: Apes, Jockies, Whales, etc).

As far as Ridley's source material goes, you've only got humans I'm afraid. As I said, your statement is pure supposition.

So Alien 3 isn't canon?

A parasite does not know whether it can survive on/in a particular host. A worm that can only live in a fish might find its way into a human. It doesn't suddenly change into a worm that can also live in a human. It simply dies.

What we have here is not a case of parisitology but of script writing.

I covered that in my post.

I don't think "canon" matters to Sir Ridley. He won't ignore his work and it'd be a massive faux pas to ignore James Cameron's (so better not to deal with xenomorphs extensively, as I explained earlier). Fincher wants nothing to do with Alien 3, like everyone else, so why bother taking it into account?

Back to parisitology, there is a hole in the Alien script here. But it could be plugged in Prometheus is the xenomorph turns out to be a parasite that is specific to humans. But that's just supposition on my part.

Scott has explicitly stated that the original xenomorph will not be in Prometheus.

Maybe they need to introduce the DNA of the species with the growing of the face hugger so it knows what it's host is. I mean, how does the face hugger know what to do without eyes, or ever seeing a Human before. Could explain why the Alien has a Human skull underneath.

Perhaps a retcon that facehuggers are specifically designed for Humans because they were the first interstellar race to find the Space Jockey ship?

Hence why there aren't eggs, just vials filled with weird goo. The goo creates a Proto Alien and that in turns starts producing some xenomorph eggs as we know them.

If it does plug it up then I don't think we can call the alien the 'ultimate lifeform'.

That said I'd be ok with it if Ridley gives a retcon for what happened with Spike (or the Ox in some cuts)

Mr Hyena wrote:I covered that in my post.

But you came to a conclusion that was simply more speculation: namely that the facehugger could adapt to the needs of humans based on the scientific theory that they are a "perfect organism." Not too compelling. The better explanation is that none of O'Bannon and Shusset and Gyler and Hill thought very hard about the matter when they wrote the script. If Ridley wants to plug the hole in Prometheus, that's fine -- but we can't assume that's the case. And none of this does anything to prove that Prometheus doesn't take place on LV426.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr Hyena wrote:If it does plug it up then I don't think we can call the alien the 'ultimate lifeform'.

Who says it's the ultimate life form? A defective robot? Big deal. I could call a piano the "perfect instrument" or a banana split the "ultimate desert." It's not a fact; it's a value judgement.

Perhaps Prometheus will retcon it with the goo. Different biomechanoid for different species? The worm thing in the trailer for humans but something different if it was dog DNA?

Medium of Death wrote:Maybe they need to introduce the DNA of the species with the growing of the face hugger so it knows what it's host is. I mean, how does the face hugger know what to do without eyes, or ever seeing a Human before. Could explain why the Alien has a Human skull underneath.

Perhaps a retcon that facehuggers are specifically designed for Humans because they were the first interstellar race to find the Space Jockey ship?

Hence why there aren't eggs, just vials filled with weird goo. The goo creates a Proto Alien and that in turns starts producing some xenomorph eggs as we know them.

Quite a lot of parasites don't have eyes. They sense many signals.

One problem with the only-human idea: what happens if an egg is on a world with no humans?

In Aliens, we see facehuggers jump across rooms aiming for fairly small targets (a human child's face). That's one hell of a sense of smell.

Manchu wrote:In Aliens, we see facehuggers jump across rooms aiming for fairly small targets (a human child's face). That's one hell of a sense of smell.

Kinda like hyper-evolved, hyper-sensitive fish lice.

Mr Hyena wrote:

Medium of Death wrote:Maybe they need to introduce the DNA of the species with the growing of the face hugger so it knows what it's host is. I mean, how does the face hugger know what to do without eyes, or ever seeing a Human before. Could explain why the Alien has a Human skull underneath.

Perhaps a retcon that facehuggers are specifically designed for Humans because they were the first interstellar race to find the Space Jockey ship?

Hence why there aren't eggs, just vials filled with weird goo. The goo creates a Proto Alien and that in turns starts producing some xenomorph eggs as we know them.

Quite a lot of parasites don't have eyes. They sense many signals.

One problem with the only-human idea: what happens if an egg is on a world with no humans?

I guess my theory is kind of based on eliminating Advanced Space fairing cultures.

Perhaps the Ships/Vial temples are located throughout the galaxy and are seen as a way to kill off advancing civilisations.

All intelligent life should be able to find the signals that the (insert name here) left behind.

It's almost like they are on wires!

I'd like to say my post makes more sense than a life-form that can couple with pretty much any creature in the Galaxy.

But then I would, wouldn't I.

Medium of Death wrote:I'd like to say my post makes more sense than a life-form that can couple with pretty much any creature in the Galaxy.

But then I would, wouldn't I.

Did you know there was "Mantis Aliens"? Guess the host. Some of the expanded universe takes this to ridiculous levels (the toys are mainly the only culprits of this...like the mantis alien) but some do make some logical sense.

Mr Hyena wrote:One problem with the only-human idea: what happens if an egg is on a world with no humans?

Drones can survive the vacuum of space. We don't know how hardy eggs are. The innards of the Derelict are a pretty safe environ and it doesn't seem like much time passes between Prometheus and Alien. Alien takes place in 2122, if you count back from Aliens. Prometheus occurs only 34 years before. That's not a lot of time for the eggs to sit around, especially under that blue light, which could have protected them. (Conversely, it could have been a "don't get closer than this to the eggs" warning sign.) If the eggs aren't hardy and the facehuggers do need humans then the eggs would still hatch if disturbed (actually, we don't know if it takes a human presence to stimulate them or whether any movement/proximity is sufficient) and any facehugger that couldn't find a human would implant the egg to no avail in another species or simply die without implanting anything in the case of barren planetoid like LV426.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Manchu wrote:In Aliens, we see facehuggers jump across rooms aiming for fairly small targets (a human child's face). That's one hell of a sense of smell.

Kilkrazy wrote:It's almost like they are on wires!

And if I didn't know better, I'd say people were pulling the wires even!

http://www.cinemablend.com/new/Ridley-Scott-Says-Xenomorph-Absolutely-Prometheus-28428.html

Kilkrazy wrote:It's almost like they are on wires!

There's actually a quite cool little documentary in the Aliens bonus DVD of the ALIEN quadrilogy box-set regarding how they did those scenes.

It does involve wires, but it's an excellent use of said wire and camera trickery!
It's all easy mode CGI now.

As for the Mantis, yeah I know I have one in a box in the loft somewhere!
Along with the Snake Alien. I think their was also Gorilla Alien, and a Winged King Alien IIRC.
I'll blame the toy companies for that though.

Mr Hyena wrote:Some of the expanded universe takes this to ridiculous levels (the toys are mainly the only culprits of this...like the mantis alien) but some do make some logical sense.

In the upcoming video game sequel to Aliens, we will see at least one further morph. You remember the bull alien toy?No imagine it much bigger:@5:48

"We call this one 'the Crusher.'"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Medium of Death wrote:It involves wires, but it's an excellent use of wire!

And rewound film!

Hey, wait - Colonial Marines is good to go? Alright!

That 'Crusher' Alien really gets away from the sleek, hyper-killing, bio-mechanical monster image that were used to.

Why crush your Species hosts, when a drone can simply drag Humans away with ease.

Silly Gearbox.

Didn't the xenomorph in Alien 3 come from a facehugger coupling with a dog? Wouldn't that pretty much confirm that the facehuggers don't specifically need humans to do their thing?

Hordini wrote:Didn't the xenomorph in Alien 3 come from a facehugger coupling with a dog? Wouldn't that pretty much confirm that the facehuggers don't specifically need humans to do their thing?

That's why I suggested a possible Ret-Con.
It's common knowledge that Ridley/Cameron weren't completely happy with the direction the films went after they did their.