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SickSix wrote:Yeah, failcast railguns would suuuuck.

Not cute OR funny. Had ALL THREE in a squad fall off the table...at a local tournament. Needless to say, it made things VERY difficult...

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:If Tau get the Matt Ward treatment,

Could we please not do this? Ever?

Functioning game rules with a chance to at least be a mid tier army?

What's not to love?

Yes. It would be a big step up.

Kepora wrote:

SickSix wrote:Yeah, failcast railguns would suuuuck.

Not cute OR funny. Had ALL THREE in a squad fall off the table...at a local tournament. Needless to say, it made things VERY difficult...

Well sorry about your luck. But I think my chances of having all of my broadsides fall off the table is minuscule compared to the chances of getting large gakked up pieces of finecast that I have to return multiple times or add material to. You are speaking from your experience and I am speaking from mine. Neither of us is 'wrong'.

SickSix wrote:

Kepora wrote:

SickSix wrote:Yeah, failcast railguns would suuuuck.

Not cute OR funny. Had ALL THREE in a squad fall off the table...at a local tournament. Needless to say, it made things VERY difficult...

Well sorry about your luck. But I think my chances of having all of my broadsides fall off the table is minuscule compared to the chances of getting large gakked up pieces of finecast that I have to return multiple times or add material to. You are speaking from your experience and I am speaking from mine. Neither of us is 'wrong'.

I don't know, my friends and I have yet to get a bad finecast model so I never could understand what people are fussing about. Is it that common to get a bad model or are people just whining about 1 in 10,000 models being mildly bad?
I for one thought metal models were the worst thing ever to exist. They are difficult to paint, chip all the time at the slightest touch, and made models unbalanced and fall over easily.
I think the other thing I don't understand is, why make finecast models? Why not drop metal and resin and stick to plastic entirely, it would probably save a lot of money by streamlining production of models by staying with one material.

Dantalian wrote:
I think the other thing I don't understand is, why make finecast models? Why not drop metal and resin and stick to plastic entirely, it would probably save a lot of money by streamlining production of models by staying with one material.

Because ONE metal mold for injection molded plastic is $20,000+ to manufacture. For low volume models like special characters, it just is not cost effective. Now, why didn't they just do straight resin? I have no idea. People have been doing that for ages and it's a known process. Probably would not have had near the hiccups as going to an all new material and process.

@Dantalian Just go here rather than turn this into a FC thread...you don't need to read the whole thing, just skip through the pics and follow the first link:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/414690.page

Brother SRM wrote:

SickSix wrote:Yeah, failcast railguns would suuuuck.

Yeah, (overused annoying catchphrase term) railguns that don't weigh half a pound each, fall over and chip constantly would suck.

They come pre-chipped!

SickSix wrote:

Kepora wrote:

SickSix wrote:Yeah, failcast railguns would suuuuck.

Not cute OR funny. Had ALL THREE in a squad fall off the table...at a local tournament. Needless to say, it made things VERY difficult...

Well sorry about your luck. But I think my chances of having all of my broadsides fall off the table is minuscule compared to the chances of getting large gakked up pieces of finecast that I have to return multiple times or add material to. You are speaking from your experience and I am speaking from mine. Neither of us is 'wrong'.

Getting "gakked up" pieces of finecast isn't nearly as common as people on the internet make it out to be. My buddy has a lictor and tyrant guard in FC and they're fine, and I went to Paper Heroes in Lake Charles (down here in Louisiana) and looked over their FInecast stock. All looked like models I could clean up and assemble in no time. And either way, finecast railguns would be a HELL of a lot easier to fix-jsut glue it back on and go! THe metal ones....those things just do NOT want to stay on. Personally, I'm hoping for Forgeworld-like ones, but maybe keep the option for over-the-shoulder railguns. I just like that look.

coyotius wrote:@Dantalian Just go here rather than turn this into a FC thread...you don't need to read the whole thing, just skip through the pics and follow the first link:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/414690.page

That thread is utter garbage. Not only are most of the models that they've actually SHOWN easy to prep/fix (ALL models need prep work, they always have!), but most of it's just "he-said/she-said" and "Lol Finecast name I think is witty and cool and hurrdurr". They neglect to take into account the numerous people who just go about their business and put togethe rthe models they're totally fine with, instead of going on the internet and going "OMG LOOK HOW GOOD MY CAST CAME OUT".

helium42 wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:

SickSix wrote:Yeah, failcast railguns would suuuuck.

Yeah, (overused annoying catchphrase term) railguns that don't weigh half a pound each, fall over and chip constantly would suck.

They come pre-chipped!

Pretty much explains the previous thread. Would rather have to do a little liquid GS work than hard-to-remove mold lines, hard-to-straighten barrels/rails, and parts that won't stay on. And I actually think Tau are one of the most resin-friendly armies; lots of smooth surfaces, so even if there are imperfections they won't be hard to fix at all. I'm personally anxious to see what they do with Farsight!


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Kilkrazy wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:If Tau get the Matt Ward treatment,

Could we please not do this? Ever?

Functioning game rules with a chance to at least be a mid tier army?

What's not to love?

Yes. It would be a big step up.

Just keep him away from the fluff. Either way I heard Phil Kelly's gonna be doing it, but if they make any pre-existing units outside of Kroot, Vespid, or Farsight (and perhaps his squad) close-combat units then we're gonna have problems.

SickSix wrote:

Dantalian wrote:
I think the other thing I don't understand is, why make finecast models? Why not drop metal and resin and stick to plastic entirely, it would probably save a lot of money by streamlining production of models by staying with one material.

Because ONE metal mold for injection molded plastic is $20,000+ to manufacture. For low volume models like special characters, it just is not cost effective. Now, why didn't they just do straight resin? I have no idea. People have been doing that for ages and it's a known process. Probably would not have had near the hiccups as going to an all new material and process.

What? How much is a Resin mold then? You can't provide a number without something to compare it to. Also this argument seems a little iffy to me. I could see cutting corners if there was a thousand or so special characters, but 40k doesn't have that many special characters. Each Resin model requires some amount of hands-on labor, making the final cost per unit produced fairly high. This is in contrast to injection molding where the initial cost of creating the metal mold is higher, but the mold can be used to produce a much higher number of units, resulting in a lower cost per unit. Plastic injection molding will still be the most economical process to choose.

coyotius wrote:@Dantalian Just go here rather than turn this into a FC thread...you don't need to read the whole thing, just skip through the pics and follow the first link:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/414690.page

Ok that sucks, but I would like to see a statistic on how common this problem is. It seems rather high, but my inner stats major would rather see numerical evidence. I see he got 8 bad models in a row, but out of my group of friends there has been about 30 FC models purchased and none of them have any errors. From what I can tell the rate of error is actually pretty low, but people are blowing the problem out of proportion. And even then I would much rather fix a hole on a resin model then try to clean up a piece of bent metal. Because I don't think I ever got a broadside that did not have its railguns bent in some way that I had to fix.


More or less back on topic, I hate broadsides so much right now that I pretty much substitute them with other crisis models and put paper hats on them. I have say I have lost many a broadside over the years, and now with the price of them going up like it is I don't care to even put them on table anymore. I can't imagine resin molding two railguns would be easier than a mass plastic mold of railguns that they can just throw in the existing crisis suit box. Crisis suits coming boxes of 3 would be nice, but I don't see it happening unless they really do plan on making crisis suits cheap in the next codex and able to field a greater number of them. What I could see them doing is boxing a crisis suit kit with the parts needed to make it into a broadside, and just get rid of the broadside box altogether. I think that would make people a lot happier in the long run.

But all this talk is pretty much moot since we don't know what GW will do with the next codex. For all we know crisis suits will get an option to have one Railgun on one suit per squad making them stronger AT as well as anti-troop. I can't seem to find the image right now, but I have seen some people model a fireknife with one mounted railgun that looked pretty cool. I also expect Firewarrior to get railrifles in their lists in the next edition as well. In the current edition railrifles are listed as "just recently been autorised for issue to front-line units," so I see no reason why they wouldn't get bumped into a squad that can better use them. It's small changes with existing material like this I would like to see in the next Tau codex.

SickSix wrote:

Dantalian wrote:
I think the other thing I don't understand is, why make finecast models? Why not drop metal and resin and stick to plastic entirely, it would probably save a lot of money by streamlining production of models by staying with one material.

Because ONE metal mold for injection molded plastic is $20,000+ to manufacture. For low volume models like special characters, it just is not cost effective. Now, why didn't they just do straight resin? I have no idea. People have been doing that for ages and it's a known process. Probably would not have had near the hiccups as going to an all new material and process.

Then why are new special character models coming out in Finecast? Some of the new ones were never produced in metal.

FrozenSoul80 wrote:

SickSix wrote:

Dantalian wrote:
I think the other thing I don't understand is, why make finecast models? Why not drop metal and resin and stick to plastic entirely, it would probably save a lot of money by streamlining production of models by staying with one material.

Because ONE metal mold for injection molded plastic is $20,000+ to manufacture. For low volume models like special characters, it just is not cost effective. Now, why didn't they just do straight resin? I have no idea. People have been doing that for ages and it's a known process. Probably would not have had near the hiccups as going to an all new material and process.

Then why are new special character models coming out in Finecast? Some of the new ones were never produced in metal.

Why is GW playing deadfish on advertising when ever economist and buisness owner would tell you that's a stupid idea? GW is not known for its practicality, I would not be surprised if they are doing FC knowing it's more expensive.

FrozenSoul80 wrote:
Then why are new special character models coming out in Finecast? Some of the new ones were never produced in metal.

They stopped using metal because of the price of tin, and shipping weight costs. That's why they switched over to Finecast.

Brother SRM wrote:

FrozenSoul80 wrote:
Then why are new special character models coming out in Finecast? Some of the new ones were never produced in metal.

They stopped using metal because of the price of tin, and shipping weight costs. That's why they switched over to Finecast.

And that is understandable. It makes sense to want to continue using the old molds they spent so many thousands on, filling them with a cheaper material. What I don't get is why they aren't releasing all new material in plastic. Why bother making brand new Finecast characters? GW is one of the best manufacturers of plastic models, with little experience in using resin. Surely they'd want to stick to their strengths.

FrozenSoul80 wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:

FrozenSoul80 wrote:
Then why are new special character models coming out in Finecast? Some of the new ones were never produced in metal.

They stopped using metal because of the price of tin, and shipping weight costs. That's why they switched over to Finecast.

And that is understandable. It makes sense to want to continue using the old molds they spent so many thousands on, filling them with a cheaper material. What I don't get is why they aren't releasing all new material in plastic. Why bother making brand new Finecast characters? GW is one of the best manufacturers of plastic models, with little experience in using resin. Surely they'd want to stick to their strengths.

In short, I don't think they would make their money back, or at least not make enough profit to justify it. I love the single plastic characters for WHFB , though, and while I don't even play WHFB, I've purchased several of the plastic character models. I guess those were made profitable by essentially being snap-fit models which use like a quarter of a full sprue.

Also, keep in mind they appear to have tested plastic characters, both with the Space Marine Commander and the CSM Terminator Lord. It would appear these are not profitable enough to justify expanding to other factions. I don't have any details here, so this is just speculation, but if they were making lots of money of single character plastics, they would surely expand upon it.

FrozenSoul80 wrote:
And that is understandable. It makes sense to want to continue using the old molds they spent so many thousands on, filling them with a cheaper material. What I don't get is why they aren't releasing all new material in plastic. Why bother making brand new Finecast characters? GW is one of the best manufacturers of plastic models, with little experience in using resin. Surely they'd want to stick to their strengths.

Because the metal molds for plastic models cost a hell of a lot of money, and they are decidedly different molds than the ones used for resin or metal. Resin and metal can use cheap rubber molds, plastics require metal molds that cost upwards of 20,000 GBP a piece. GW does want to go towards all plastic as can be clearly seen, but it's going to be some time yet. I have a feeling we'll see plastic generic characters like Fantasy's been getting soon though. I'm assuming that those have one big mold with multiple sprues on it that they then package separately.

Brother SRM wrote:

FrozenSoul80 wrote:
And that is understandable. It makes sense to want to continue using the old molds they spent so many thousands on, filling them with a cheaper material. What I don't get is why they aren't releasing all new material in plastic. Why bother making brand new Finecast characters? GW is one of the best manufacturers of plastic models, with little experience in using resin. Surely they'd want to stick to their strengths.

Because the metal molds for plastic models cost a hell of a lot of money, and they are decidedly different molds than the ones used for resin or metal. Resin and metal can use cheap rubber molds, plastics require metal molds that cost upwards of 20,000 GBP a piece. GW does want to go towards all plastic as can be clearly seen, but it's going to be some time yet. I have a feeling we'll see plastic generic characters like Fantasy's been getting soon though. I'm assuming that those have one big mold with multiple sprues on it that they then package separately.

That's why I still think plastic is cheaper. Plastic molds can be made to produce a large amount of sprues where resin molds cannot. Resin also requires physical labor to finish and release where plastic molds do not. I can't imagine paying someone to do the work for small batches of resin molds can be more cost effective than not paying someone to work on large batches of plastic molds. Even with a relatively larger start up cost, the return of expenses would be rather large on the scale in which they produce and sell models. And since GW loves to use the same models for many years it makes even more sense to start out with plastic models and skip resin altogether.

I guess that means buy metal now. I still have all the metal minis i have ever bought. As to finecast BE CAREFUL Mine, after getting a replacement for the first miscast, melted after being in the car for a short drive. After warm water soak to bend it back to shape it broke. Metal lasts, finecast dies in terrible ways if it is not treated like fine crystal.

battlematt wrote:I guess that means buy metal now. I still have all the metal minis i have ever bought. As to finecast BE CAREFUL Mine, after getting a replacement for the first miscast, melted after being in the car for a short drive. After warm water soak to bend it back to shape it broke. Metal lasts, finecast dies in terrible ways if it is not treated like fine crystal.

Another reason to choose plastic.

I think this topic is dead and just going off in random directions

newdigitaltau wrote:I think this topic is dead and just going off in random directions

My thoughts when I read the first post

I absolutely cannot wait to see what GW will do with the new Tau battlesuits. If the new plastic kits we've been getting are anything to go by, coupled with the awesomeness of the FW suits, it'll be a modelling treat.

Dantalian wrote:
That's why I still think plastic is cheaper. Plastic molds can be made to produce a large amount of sprues where resin molds cannot. Resin also requires physical labor to finish and release where plastic molds do not. I can't imagine paying someone to do the work for small batches of resin molds can be more cost effective than not paying someone to work on large batches of plastic molds. Even with a relatively larger start up cost, the return of expenses would be rather large on the scale in which they produce and sell models. And since GW loves to use the same models for many years it makes even more sense to start out with plastic models and skip resin altogether.

You think plastic is cheaper, I know it isn't, at least in the short run. It costs 20,000 GBP to make a mold for plastic models. A rubber mold can be made at home. In the long run, plastic tends to be cheaper, but it takes a lot of sales to make up for the cost of the mold itself. Once it does it's more profitable since it tends to be on units that sell more. For example I only need one Finecast Space Marine Captain, but I'm going to buy a couple plastic Rhinos or Tactical Squads.

My local GW has now run out of Firewarriors.

I asked when they are getting any in...

They can't order them anymore.

This was from a different member of staff.

Curiouser and curiouser...considering that it's a plastic kit, could mean that the rumors have at least some credence...

spectreoneone wrote:Curiouser and curiouser...considering that it's a plastic kit, could mean that the rumors have at least some credence...

It's a pain in the ass more than anything else.

I'm trying to plan my next army and can't until they announce the new range.

But I consider this to be a big sign, especially since:

A) This is a core part of the army that every player must have.

B) It's a core plastic kit and not a finecast kit that could do with a plastic release.

It is quite strange that the Fire Warriors are unavailable to your store.

Especially considering they're still showing as "Available: Shipping within 24 hours" on the US webstore.

Puscifer wrote:

spectreoneone wrote:Curiouser and curiouser...considering that it's a plastic kit, could mean that the rumors have at least some credence...

It's a pain in the ass more than anything else.

I'm trying to plan my next army and can't until they announce the new range.

But I consider this to be a big sign, especially since:

A) This is a core part of the army that every player must have.

B) It's a core plastic kit and not a finecast kit that could do with a plastic release.

Agreed. That's why I'm starting up an IG army right now, and holding off on my Tau, moreso now that this has come to light.

Edit: Ninja'd by Kanluwen.

Could they be cutting off the supply to the stores and selling down stock to make room?

I hadn't checked the Webstore, but I cannot see why a different member of staff would tell me that they cannot be ordered, when if they could, I would have bought a squad to paint.

They are neither on backorder or unavailable, I looked on both GWUS and GWUK.

Both show them as "Available: Usually ships within 24 hours."


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Puscifer wrote:I hadn't checked the Webstore, but I cannot see why a different member of staff would tell me that they cannot be ordered, when if they could, I would have bought a squad to paint.

It is strange that they would say something like that.

It might be that they cannot order them for stock purposes but can direct order them for you?

I dunno.

He didn't point me to the Webstore and just said that he couldn't order them in.

I thought it was for stock purposes too, but it's a little too much of a coincidence, considering the conversationI had with another member of staff regarding the Commander and Farsight.