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MeanGreenStompa wrote:Hmmmm, Defiant vs White Star (both containing full compliment of regular cast crew)... /ponder...

I'm going with White Star.

White Star. Worse to worse just jump and its adios muchachos. Repair damage, jump out and ambush them. Of course it would be interesting to see how they handle the Defiant's cloaking field. They did have Vorlon sensors which are arguably the best or top 5 in galactic history.

Now what would be epic would be a whitestar fleet led by Ivanova vs. a Defiant fleet led by Sisko.
Think of all the legendary monologues!

Aduro wrote:I'd say the Defiant probably has better guns and would blow a White Star out of the sky (or rather space), except that I think the Defiant would have a really hard time actually Hitting the much faster and more maneuverable White Star. Open/even battlefield, I think I'd go with White Star as well.

I'm not that familiar with Babylon 5, but don't forget the Defiant has a cloaking device, so it could potentially get the drop on a White Star.

Hordini wrote:

Aduro wrote:I'd say the Defiant probably has better guns and would blow a White Star out of the sky (or rather space), except that I think the Defiant would have a really hard time actually Hitting the much faster and more maneuverable White Star. Open/even battlefield, I think I'd go with White Star as well.

I'm not that familiar with Babylon 5, but don't forget the Defiant has a cloaking device, so it could potentially get the drop on a White Star.

Nerd fight! Its on bro!
Me likey the Defiant, its what ST should be when in badass mode. The White Star is pretty equivalent actually, although a good bit larger. They had advanced sensors on them that could do things like detect folds in other dimensions (folds in hyperspace). Their weaponry may have been better as a couple could take a Shadow cruiser and we've seen what Shadow cruisers could do.

Both are epic at doing the long banking turn attack. Yes!
Now for some nerdgasm

Kyoto should not watch that Defiant video, otherwise it'll spoil quite a bit.

Frazzled wrote:Of course it would be interesting to see how they handle the Defiant's cloaking field. They did have Vorlon sensors which are arguably the best or top 5 in galactic history.

I think the cloaking device would be pointless because of this.



White Stars come equipped with either a trio of alpha level Minbari telepaths or the deluxe vorlon upgraded Gigapsyker, pictured above, available in sexy redhead... She'd sniff the ship out and get some chump (obrien) to drop the shields... (it can also be argued she could fold the defiant into interesting origami shapes).


Secondary point of interest, vorlon armour plating is alive and learns to adapt from one shot to another, the defiant's guns would have less and less effect over time.

I also think that frontal beam, the pulsing one, which grows in intensity, would just overwhelm the shields.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Kyoto should not watch that Defiant video, otherwise it'll spoil quite a bit.

Thx

I'm psyched, sometime soon I should finally hit the point where I stopped watching DS9 (I was in Japan) and it will all be brand new.

As for Defiant vs White Star people forget just how advanced Star Trek is compared to any other SF universe. Yeah it's mainly because of the budget pressures and the age of Star Trek but the combination of shields, transporters, replicators and anti-matter make even a Federation Shuttle more advanced than anything I remember seeing in Babylon 5 (or for that matter Star Wars or most of 40k). I mean they can create and destroy matter, taking you apart and the quantum level and reassembling you is so common and safe people do it to get out of the hassle of flying a shuttle.

They don't always (or ever) use this tech to its full advantage, and they seem behind Star Wars on robots and AI but I think in a one on one fight any ST universe ship will pound its counterpart.

Which is not to say that therefore ST is better, far from it, but if the question who'd win, I'd go with the incredibly more advanced folks who can rig up time machines with their coffee maker.

Defiant vs White Star

"Captain there's a small ship approaching, it doesn't have shields, is powered by fusion and seems to lack any warp drive."

"Hmm, must be a life pod. Beam the crew directly to the brig."

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Secondary point of interest, vorlon armour plating is alive and learns to adapt from one shot to another, the defiant's guns would have less and less effect over time.

It's possible that the Defiant could modify its phaser banks to be set on a rotating modulation, similar to what Picard's crew did with their phaser rifles to combat the Borg, but on a larger scale. That could potentially increase the number of effective shots they could fire before the Vorion armor adapted to their weapons.


Also, there are telepaths in the Star Trek universe. Maybe they could get one on board to help cloud the mental presence of the Defiant's crew when cloaked?

I still think the Defiant could possibly get the drop on them. Would those fancy sensors be able to detect a cloaked Defiant if they weren't actively looking for it?

Hordini wrote:
Also, there are telepaths in the Star Trek universe. Maybe they could get one on board to help cloud the mental presence of the Defiant's crew when cloaked?

Telepathic races in ST are very underwhelming, they just communicate by thought. The principle race being bajorans, who can read surface thoughts and preempt what possible actions others may take. Telepaths in B5 are able to make others do their bidding, manipulate and cause pain. Lyta Alexander is a vorlon doomsday weapon, able to enslave multiple targets, lash out with force enough to damage the station and she was only just starting to unlock her powers by the end of the series. Put a bajoran up against Lyta and she'd make it all squishy.


@ Kid_K, remember that whilst the younger races in B5 are certainly less powerful than their ST opposites, the older races were massively powerful with many hidden technologies that were never fully uncovered in the series. We know that the vorlons can traverse several different dimensions (something the borg had only started experimenting with in the ST series), the beam weapons used by the shadows, vorlons and white star ships are certainly more destructive than the ST ones.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Of course it would be interesting to see how they handle the Defiant's cloaking field. They did have Vorlon sensors which are arguably the best or top 5 in galactic history.

I think the cloaking device would be pointless because of this.



White Stars come equipped with either a trio of alpha level Minbari telepaths or the deluxe vorlon upgraded Gigapsyker, pictured above, available in sexy redhead... She'd sniff the ship out and get some chump (obrien) to drop the shields... (it can also be argued she could fold the defiant into interesting origami shapes).


Secondary point of interest, vorlon armour plating is alive and learns to adapt from one shot to another, the defiant's guns would have less and less effect over time.

I also think that frontal beam, the pulsing one, which grows in intensity, would just overwhelm the shields.

Good points MGS. I forgot about psyker goodness.


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MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Hordini wrote:
Also, there are telepaths in the Star Trek universe. Maybe they could get one on board to help cloud the mental presence of the Defiant's crew when cloaked?

Telepathic races in ST are very underwhelming, they just communicate by thought. The principle race being bajorans, who can read surface thoughts and preempt what possible actions others may take. Telepaths in B5 are able to make others do their bidding, manipulate and cause pain. Lyta Alexander is a vorlon doomsday weapon, able to enslave multiple targets, lash out with force enough to damage the station and she was only just starting to unlock her powers by the end of the series. Put a bajoran up against Lyta and she'd make it all squishy.


@ Kid_K, remember that whilst the younger races in B5 are certainly less powerful than their ST opposites, the older races were massively powerful with many hidden technologies that were never fully uncovered in the series. We know that the vorlons can traverse several different dimensions (something the borg had only started experimenting with in the ST series), the beam weapons used by the shadows, vorlons and white star ships are certainly more destructive than the ST ones.

Plus the Vorlons had the equivalent of the Death Star for all your planet killing needs...

I think beam weapons in B5 seemed more devestating because:

A - no shields
B - A show with CGI can afford to use more ships and blow them up more than one using models

Since B is an out of universe reason A indicates Star Trek weapons are just as powerful but tend to hit tougher targets.

Don't forget ST uses force fields for things like jail doors, outer windows, and a structural integrity field to hold the ship together. For them force fields are as common as glass. It's a whole other level of tech!

Yea but when your shields are off the ships seem to do pretty well. Its a problem...

Of course if we're talking STOS pretty much when the shields go down the next hit blows you into itty itty itty bits so that supports your argument.

I'd argue (wow it's been a pong time since I argued nerd-tech, it's fun) that in the TOS we don't hear about structural integrity fields, internal force fields and the like so they were not as significant.

Once you get into the Next Gen era though ships have so many redundant sheilds they can still take hits even if the main shields are gone.

It's like me saying 'my internet is down' by which i mean my desktop is down so I only have my tablet, blackberry and netbook to rely on

I find the B5 weapons aren't as well detailed. I don't remember them ever utilizing sheilds and their guns seem to be plasma guns. I think White Stars are battleships and the Defiant is more like a frigate but if they don't have shields then it's not even close.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I find the B5 weapons aren't as well detailed. I don't remember them ever utilizing sheilds and their guns seem to be plasma guns. I think White Stars are battleships and the Defiant is more like a frigate but if they don't have shields then it's not even close.

From what I can determine they do have shields, but they conform tightly to the shape of the hull, rather than the bubble shields of ST.

Word of God is B5 ships (at least the non-elder races) do not have shields.

Earth didn't even have artificial gravity.

Again, doesn't make ST better, just means that ST is operating on a whole different technological baseline.

Star Trek doesn't seem to have the same classifications for ships that we currently use...
E.g. Destroyer, Cruiser, battleship etc...

purplefood wrote:Star Trek doesn't seem to have the same classifications for ships that we currently use...
E.g. Destroyer, Cruiser, battleship etc...

Sorry but as you may have guessed I have a bit of a passion for fictional space navies, Star Trek was always very much Hornblower in Space so yes it does have categories.

Consitution, Galaxy and Soverign (the 3 Enterprises) are heavy cruisers
Defiant was an escort ship

Starfleet does't have battleships because Starfleet is not a military
Really
It isn't
Those are peaceful guns.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

purplefood wrote:Star Trek doesn't seem to have the same classifications for ships that we currently use...
E.g. Destroyer, Cruiser, battleship etc...

Sorry but as you may have guessed I have a bit of a passion for fictional space navies, Star Trek was always very much Hornblower in Space so yes it does have categories.

Consitution, Galaxy and Soverign (the 3 Enterprises) are heavy cruisers
Defiant was an escort ship

Starfleet does't have battleships because Starfleet is not a military
Really
It isn't
Those are peaceful guns.

Yeah i just found a page listing them...
It'd seem sensible to have something big and scary so you can at least defend yourself...

Ya, well the Sovereign is a very powerful Totally-Not-A-Battleship Battleship. The Defiant and Akira class ships are actual warships something Starfleet had to bring in because of the Dominion War. Sovreigns and Akiras are probably better warships than Defiants if we're going for shootiest Starfleet vessel.

Hordini wrote:
Basically, saying that the crew doesn't go anywhere in DS9 because they're "boldly sitting on a space station" is as silly and inaccurate as saying the Next Generation crew doesn't go anywhere because they're sitting on the Enterprise the whole time.

Not even close. B5 (since it's been mentioned once or twice) illustrated the difference on the episode with the explorer vessel. The B5 crew certainly traveled all over the place, but they were still tied down to a station, which was lamented by Sheridan. When the explorer ship showed up, he made everybody take note since they may never see one again. All they do is go where no man has gone before. If they're seen in normal space, it's because they need to resupply. Huge difference. Now, the ST universe may not work exactly like that, but there's still a huge difference between the Enterprise and DS9. I wasn't a frequent viewer, but every time I turned to it, the shows typically centered on their namesake. Even if they do go outside, it's still a show about a space station, not an exploration vessel.

Getting near the end of season 3, Kai Winn is becoming a major character.

She's this oily, slimy, combination of a televangelist and a politician with a great fake smile and flattery and lies for every occasion.

She's as annoying as @#$% but that's the point.

She's up there with Garek.


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KamikazeCanuck wrote:Ya, well the Sovereign is a very powerful Totally-Not-A-Battleship Battleship.

Star Fleet is a peaceful organization on a mission of exploration!

Now buy our stuff or else!

The Defiant and Akira class ships are actual warships something Starfleet had to bring in because of the Dominion War. Sovreigns and Akiras are probably better warships than Defiants if we're going for shootiest Starfleet vessel.

I was just reading about the Akira, 15 torpedo tubes! Fifteen! Deep hurting!

I like to imagine the real world tension between Roddenberry and the utopians who want ST to be about peace and love, and the studios and fans who want zapping and exploding is reflected in-universe.

It would be a cool story with a pre-borg invasion captain and a post-borg 1st officer clashing over the soul of Star Fleet.

Frazzled wrote:Yea but when your shields are off the ships seem to do pretty well. Its a problem...

Of course if we're talking STOS pretty much when the shields go down the next hit blows you into itty itty itty bits so that supports your argument.

You know what I never understood?

It's the fething future, it's a fly-by-wire system, and you have a giant screen in front of the bridge instead of a window to look outside with.

Why in the name of all that is holy has nobody ever stopped to think "You know what, everytime the shields fail somebody just shoots the dome at the center top of the disk. Maybe we should not put all the vital crew and control systems one hull breach away from certain doom. Let's stick them somewhere deep inside the ship!"

d-usa wrote:
You know what I never understood?

It's the fething future, it's a fly-by-wire system, and you have a giant screen in front of the bridge instead of a window to look outside with.

Why in the name of all that is holy has nobody ever stopped to think "You know what, everytime the shields fail somebody just shoots the dome at the center top of the disk. Maybe we should not put all the vital crew and control systems one hull breach away from certain doom. Let's stick them somewhere deep inside the ship!"

That is part of the real world design idiocy that we constantly see in scifi...

We're building 5 mile long armour plated warbastards! Lets stick the bridge up on the top like it's a boat!! No highly maneuverable xenos filth are going to target that!



Woot! That's a rockin idea, we'll do it too!!



We're gonna have some o' that!



Genius!

That's how you design a ship; bridge in the middle.

d-usa wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Yea but when your shields are off the ships seem to do pretty well. Its a problem...

Of course if we're talking STOS pretty much when the shields go down the next hit blows you into itty itty itty bits so that supports your argument.

You know what I never understood?

It's the fething future, it's a fly-by-wire system, and you have a giant screen in front of the bridge instead of a window to look outside with.

Why in the name of all that is holy has nobody ever stopped to think "You know what, everytime the shields fail somebody just shoots the dome at the center top of the disk. Maybe we should not put all the vital crew and control systems one hull breach away from certain doom. Let's stick them somewhere deep inside the ship!"

Well if I was going for my no-prize I would say that given the power of weapons in Star Trek (where hand phasers can disintegrate boulders) if your shields go down then you're fethed regardless of where the bridge is. Another 100' of steel is not going to help.

Obviously the real reason is dramatic necessity.

@Kyoto
I there was some discussion about how basically Roddenberry never would have wanted a show like DS9 but that's ok by me: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/432685.page#3989922

And yeah Akiras are cool. Anyone play the Star Trek Legacy video game? http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek:_Legacy That let you test drive all the Star Trek ship, I thought it was pretty fun.

I like how deep space nine wasn' t so naively rightous like TNG...it was raw and realistic, how I pictured the federation to actually exist. That being said, TOS is still my favorite.

"Deep Space Nine was our last, best, hope for peace. It failed."

Back home after a long, fun trip.

Just starting season 4, aka the good part!

Kid_Kyoto wrote:"Deep Space Nine was our last, best, hope for peace. It failed."

Back home after a long, fun trip.

Just starting season 4, aka the good part!

Hang on. Its going to be a ride.

Who are you?
What do you want?

Kid_Kyoto wrote:"Deep Space Nine was our last, best, hope for peace. It failed."

Back home after a long, fun trip.

Just starting season 4, aka the good part!

Wait a minute...