Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Garrlor wrote:

Northern85Star wrote:
The stratagem actually just says that the model gains the character keyword, how does that make him immune to morale?

Simply because he becomes a character and therefore a completely new unit. You only need to take the morale test for the unit that lost models as per the BRB. Fluff wise, all his pack dies in the shooting phase, he makes a unbreakable vow to avenge them and fights on. I didnt mean he becomes immune to morale completely, just the effects of the morale phase in this instance. It probably does need a faq to clear up mind you.

Yeah, the stratagem just says he gains the character keyword (ie: in addition to any the unit already has). So as per now i think the unit needs to take a morale test :/

tneva82 wrote:

jcd386 wrote:

Northern85Star wrote:
Saga of the beastslayer. If the chap dread kills a monster or vehicle, then all units within 6” gets +1 to wound against monsters and vehicles. The chap dread has 2 LCs and the relic stormbolter, which all works nicely with the warlord trait.

In this way i see his potential, but not in a melee oriented army. It has to be a list that tries to get enemy key units down asap from range.

Gotcha. Yeah that's not terrible against certain lists with vehicles that aren't too hard to crack. A bit of luck needed to have him be the one who gets the kill, but should be doable.

Plus it will start working turn 2 which means dread or long fangs could be dead in an edition where first 2 turns are generally the big ones, maybe turn 3

edit: Whoops dread isn't dying quickly

Yeah I think long fang durability is a definite issue. Once they start shooting I can't see them not being focused down pretty quickly.

One thing I think has a lot of value for space wolves is the ability to spend 1 CP to keep a beefy long fang squad of the table and then outflank it into your own deployment zone on the first turn. You can then spend another CP to shoot with no penalties.

Rhinos or razorbacks can also work for this to some extent, but only one unit can avoid the penalties.

For this reason it really seems like the value of long fang squads starts going down significantly the more of them you take.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Northern85Star wrote:

 Garrlor wrote:

Northern85Star wrote:
The stratagem actually just says that the model gains the character keyword, how does that make him immune to morale?

Simply because he becomes a character and therefore a completely new unit. You only need to take the morale test for the unit that lost models as per the BRB. Fluff wise, all his pack dies in the shooting phase, he makes a unbreakable vow to avenge them and fights on. I didnt mean he becomes immune to morale completely, just the effects of the morale phase in this instance. It probably does need a faq to clear up mind you.

Yeah, the stratagem just says he gains the character keyword (ie: in addition to any the unit already has). So as per now i think the unit needs to take a morale test :/

It definitely has to take a morale test. If it passes then you can lone Wolf him.

Hopefully the lone wolf strat will get an FAQ to build in "auto pass moral" otherwise it's uses will be far and few between. Maybe if you run MSU troops it would be easier.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Northern85Star wrote:

 Garrlor wrote:

Northern85Star wrote:
The stratagem actually just says that the model gains the character keyword, how does that make him immune to morale?

Simply because he becomes a character and therefore a completely new unit. You only need to take the morale test for the unit that lost models as per the BRB. Fluff wise, all his pack dies in the shooting phase, he makes a unbreakable vow to avenge them and fights on. I didnt mean he becomes immune to morale completely, just the effects of the morale phase in this instance. It probably does need a faq to clear up mind you.

Yeah, the stratagem just says he gains the character keyword (ie: in addition to any the unit already has). So as per now i think the unit needs to take a morale test :/

It definitely has to take a morale test. If it passes then you can lone Wolf him.

Im currently using a plastic dread converted with bitz from the ven dread box as a wolfpriest dread. Ill paint it black and gold following old Ulriks scheme.

Think it looks cool with claws and double las.

Chopped up a redemptor(ezybuild) and added the guns from the mantic games forgefather(rapier thingee) and the engine of the stormfang as the faceplate looks means as all hell, not the best conversion ive ever done but also quite a difficult one for a noob converter so in all its rough in patches but at a distance its very imposing and impressive.

 gwarsh41 wrote:

 beir wrote:
Anyone else notice that our cataphractii and tartaros terminators can't take wolf claws, only lightning claws? Lame.

I did not, but I did notice they have a ++3 save by default. Is that standard for Cataphractii lords, or unique to wolves?

Oops

It’s a combination of cataphractii armor and the belt of russ, so since other chapters have similar rules it ought to be standard.

 ulfhednir86 wrote:

 beir wrote:
After playing my first game with the new codex tonight, I ran across a problem with the Lone Wolf stratagems that I didn't consider before

The last surviving model in a unit has a good chance of failing a morale check. Your super awesome new lone wolf character may just run away after going super sayian. I think this needs an FAQ - the new Lone Wolf should be immune to morale checks imo.

There are a few stratagems to auto pass moral to save him.


P.S can people stop bringing up the chap dread? its not fluffy for wolves nor is it usable in tournaments and FW sucks (note their index's)

Well I'm quite sure Space Wolves have stuck Wolf Priests in Dreads before. The Chaplain Dread doesn't function the same as a regular Chaplain so I wouldn't expect any Wolf Priest Dread to act the same.

Also why isn't it usable in tournaments? Seems like a cool gimmick to consider actually.

Are not the rhinoes taller then long fangs? Just park them in front and move them begore you shoot.

So went to a 1500 pt tournament yesterday, went 0 and 3. I didnt have a lot of time to make a list after the codex dropped so i just threw something together. 2 large longfang packs, njal, herald deathwolf, 15 grey hunters, 2 rhinos, wolf guard battle leader, and 5 wolfen.

I normally got the +1 to going first with so few drops but it never mattered, first game vs guard i rolled a 6 to go first, other 2 games i rolled a 1 both times. My rolling was absolutely horrible all day, i never made a charge out of outflanking the wolfen and herald on all 3 games (I know 9 isnt the easist to get but out of 13 attempts all day not to get a single 9? Yeah, that was my day lol)

I won't go into details on how the games went but i do want to say some things that i noticed vs before.

1. Wolfen are still great. 5 of them, 4 with storm shields, in my game vs guard were worth every point. Sure they failed their initial charge then got shot off the table BUT they took the entire guards force shooting at them to kill them. Over 1000 pts needed to kill 239 pts of guys? Yep, will take that trade every time.

2. Longfangs simply cant stand up to concentrated fire of any sort. I still like them but i dont think i will take more than 1 squad next time. Unless i go with a team with heavy bolters....

3. Our HQ's fed dont hold up. Compare to other specialty hq choices like Asreal or even what combos a blood angel captain can do (not talking about things like the cost / effectiveness of eldar hq's) our stuff isnt as good and is very expensive. I spent way too many points in this tournament on hq's i thought were cool and ended up very underwhelmed by them.

4. Mobility is still a problem. If we go 2nd and plan on using rhinos to move your infantry around the table thats probably not going to happen. As mentioned before in todays anti-knight mentality meta your rhinos wont last long enough to be successful. The one game i went first rushing them forward, dropping njal in, casting the storm spell and then popping the stratagem for -1 to hit worked perfectly, and the rhinos survived all game. But just like magnus, if you dont get a chance to power up they will die super quick.

5. We do not have enough cp to use these stratagems well. That Alitoc Flyer with -2 to hit needs to be delt with? 1cp to ignore minuses, 1cp for hellfire shells, 1cp for flak missile, thats what i spent on my 3 missile launcher / 1hb longfang team to blow it out of the sky. At that point i went from 7 to 4 cp.. doesnt leave enough to do it again and do anything else of value. And there were 2 of those ships i had to deal with, which didnt happen because reapers are still a huge issue and they like to kill longfangs dead.


So yeah, i think if we are going to be competitive at this point we need to take a hard look at what we do well and how to make it work. I dont like only having a chance if we go 1st, alpha forces are way to win or lose right away so maybe we need to soup to be competitive?

Sorry to see you didn't do very well in your tournament Azuza. I think not having a lot of time to build a list probably effected you, plus the bad rolling? I think the heroes need to be used to boost the rest of the force around them, not rely on them to solo an army. We don't have a Magnus sadly.

You're probably right about needing to soup to be "ultra competitive". I think that's Space Marine forces in general at the moment sadly.

I simply have not had time to really pour through the Codex and make a list. I got swamped with traveling and family issues, blah blah. I am hoping to really dig into it tonight and make a few lists so I know what to paint for the rest of the week.

Currently I am looking at stuffing Wulfen Dreads into drop pods along with some outflanking wulfen and bloodclaws. A little castle of longfangs and Predators should anchor the force. I need to point it out to see how it works though. It could be entirely unfeasible.

My other idea is similar to yours with the Rhino rush.

I think they really need to make some distinctions on the beta drop rules. Things like drop pods and outflanking through a strategem should get you around the turn 2 drop. Terminators teleporting in, jump packs dropping in should be the ones limited to turn 2. But that's just a complaint haha.

We shall see I suppose.

Azuza001 wrote:
So went to a 1500 pt tournament yesterday, went 0 and 3. I didnt have a lot of time to make a list after the codex dropped so i just threw something together. 2 large longfang packs, njal, herald deathwolf, 15 grey hunters, 2 rhinos, wolf guard battle leader, and 5 wolfen.

I normally got the +1 to going first with so few drops but it never mattered, first game vs guard i rolled a 6 to go first, other 2 games i rolled a 1 both times. My rolling was absolutely horrible all day, i never made a charge out of outflanking the wolfen and herald on all 3 games (I know 9 isnt the easist to get but out of 13 attempts all day not to get a single 9? Yeah, that was my day lol)

I won't go into details on how the games went but i do want to say some things that i noticed vs before.

1. Wolfen are still great. 5 of them, 4 with storm shields, in my game vs guard were worth every point. Sure they failed their initial charge then got shot off the table BUT they took the entire guards force shooting at them to kill them. Over 1000 pts needed to kill 239 pts of guys? Yep, will take that trade every time.

2. Longfangs simply cant stand up to concentrated fire of any sort. I still like them but i dont think i will take more than 1 squad next time. Unless i go with a team with heavy bolters....

3. Our HQ's fed dont hold up. Compare to other specialty hq choices like Asreal or even what combos a blood angel captain can do (not talking about things like the cost / effectiveness of eldar hq's) our stuff isnt as good and is very expensive. I spent way too many points in this tournament on hq's i thought were cool and ended up very underwhelmed by them.

4. Mobility is still a problem. If we go 2nd and plan on using rhinos to move your infantry around the table thats probably not going to happen. As mentioned before in todays anti-knight mentality meta your rhinos wont last long enough to be successful. The one game i went first rushing them forward, dropping njal in, casting the storm spell and then popping the stratagem for -1 to hit worked perfectly, and the rhinos survived all game. But just like magnus, if you dont get a chance to power up they will die super quick.

5. We do not have enough cp to use these stratagems well. That Alitoc Flyer with -2 to hit needs to be delt with? 1cp to ignore minuses, 1cp for hellfire shells, 1cp for flak missile, thats what i spent on my 3 missile launcher / 1hb longfang team to blow it out of the sky. At that point i went from 7 to 4 cp.. doesnt leave enough to do it again and do anything else of value. And there were 2 of those ships i had to deal with, which didnt happen because reapers are still a huge issue and they like to kill longfangs dead.


So yeah, i think if we are going to be competitive at this point we need to take a hard look at what we do well and how to make it work. I dont like only having a chance if we go 1st, alpha forces are way to win or lose right away so maybe we need to soup to be competitive?

Well part of your issue is how you decided to use your CP there. 2CP for the ignoring of the -2 + Flakk should be sufficient, and then all you need to do is bump the stats down enough that the shooting isn't a threat. Then you could've spent Helfire against something else.

What do you guys gear up your imbeded wolf guards?
1. Stormshield and stormbolter
2. Terminator armor then ss and sb
3. Ss and combi plasma
4. thunderhammer and sb or ss
5. Other combination?

I thing 1. Is great for improving durability of a squad of gh or long fangs for just 23pts.
I have the feeling that not having a ss on the wolfguard is just not worth it.

Doctor-boom wrote:
What do you guys gear up your imbeded wolf guards?
1. Stormshield and stormbolter
2. Terminator armor then ss and sb
3. Ss and combi plasma
4. thunderhammer and sb or ss
5. Other combination?

I thing 1. Is great for improving durability of a squad of gh or long fangs for just 23pts.
I have the feeling that not having a ss on the wolfguard is just not worth it.

I think just a hammer on blood claws or just a Combi plasma on grey hunters is enough. GH hammers have 1 less attack compare to BC, so I'd avoid that. I'd also think about hammer + Combi in a BC squad, but that starts getting pricey.

I don't like SS because you'll never risk it until he's the last guy left, and even then you're still likely to fail a 3+ at some point if the other player really wants him gone.

Adding a storm bolter to the hammer guy would be okay, but I'd put them on other units like HQs and vehicles first.

The SS/SB Combo is interesting, but I think I'd rather just take 2 more basic dudes for 26 points, or spend more points on a hammer or Combi weapon.

Azuza001 wrote:
So went to a 1500 pt tournament yesterday, went 0 and 3. I didnt have a lot of time to make a list after the codex dropped so i just threw something together. 2 large longfang packs, njal, herald deathwolf, 15 grey hunters, 2 rhinos, wolf guard battle leader, and 5 wolfen.

I normally got the +1 to going first with so few drops but it never mattered, first game vs guard i rolled a 6 to go first, other 2 games i rolled a 1 both times. My rolling was absolutely horrible all day, i never made a charge out of outflanking the wolfen and herald on all 3 games (I know 9 isnt the easist to get but out of 13 attempts all day not to get a single 9? Yeah, that was my day lol)

I won't go into details on how the games went but i do want to say some things that i noticed vs before.

1. Wolfen are still great. 5 of them, 4 with storm shields, in my game vs guard were worth every point. Sure they failed their initial charge then got shot off the table BUT they took the entire guards force shooting at them to kill them. Over 1000 pts needed to kill 239 pts of guys? Yep, will take that trade every time.

2. Longfangs simply cant stand up to concentrated fire of any sort. I still like them but i dont think i will take more than 1 squad next time. Unless i go with a team with heavy bolters....

3. Our HQ's fed dont hold up. Compare to other specialty hq choices like Asreal or even what combos a blood angel captain can do (not talking about things like the cost / effectiveness of eldar hq's) our stuff isnt as good and is very expensive. I spent way too many points in this tournament on hq's i thought were cool and ended up very underwhelmed by them.

4. Mobility is still a problem. If we go 2nd and plan on using rhinos to move your infantry around the table thats probably not going to happen. As mentioned before in todays anti-knight mentality meta your rhinos wont last long enough to be successful. The one game i went first rushing them forward, dropping njal in, casting the storm spell and then popping the stratagem for -1 to hit worked perfectly, and the rhinos survived all game. But just like magnus, if you dont get a chance to power up they will die super quick.

5. We do not have enough cp to use these stratagems well. That Alitoc Flyer with -2 to hit needs to be delt with? 1cp to ignore minuses, 1cp for hellfire shells, 1cp for flak missile, thats what i spent on my 3 missile launcher / 1hb longfang team to blow it out of the sky. At that point i went from 7 to 4 cp.. doesnt leave enough to do it again and do anything else of value. And there were 2 of those ships i had to deal with, which didnt happen because reapers are still a huge issue and they like to kill longfangs dead.


So yeah, i think if we are going to be competitive at this point we need to take a hard look at what we do well and how to make it work. I dont like only having a chance if we go 1st, alpha forces are way to win or lose right away so maybe we need to soup to be competitive?

Mono-marine lists will never be competitive with the current mechanics, the fact that all of our protection powers can only be used on our turn is a major weakness that other powerful factions have no trouble with (Elves get innate -1 and can use Lightning Fast Reflex when getting shot at, Plaguebearers get innate -1 and can use Warp Surge when on the opponent's turn, Knights can rotate ion shield, etc), so if we don't go first then we are getting a major beating every time.

You will find souping in IG to be a tempting option every time, but when you go down that route you'll quickly end up with no marines at all.

I think the most powerful build for SW at the moment should involve flyer alpha strike stacked with Cloak in Storm, take Stormwolves and Stormhawks and deploy them as far back as possible, fly them up the board on your turn with Rune priests in the middle providing -1 bubble and light them up, unload your wulfens, blood claws and other characters the follow turn. And take outflanking aggressors to clear chaff

You know, if there is one thing we all agree on is working very good for us, it is outflanking wulfen. But the majority stick to one unit. Why not go three units, outflank them all, and see what happens?

I have found if planning on using outflank as a force tactic with multiple units then you really need a durable anvil to survive until turn 2. Sadly i am at a lose as to what to pick for this job.

Another cheap (ish) option that i have had luck with in the past is the wolf scouts outflanking with 2 plasma pistols, a plasma gun, and a combi plasma on the battle leader. Almost always makes up its points when it comes off a side 9-12 inches and puts 6 str 8 ap-3 d2 shots into an enemy tank or some other unsuspecting enemy. Only runs 108ish points too.

But i really think the key will be to find a way to make our grey hunters work. Atm thats either food sloging (bad), rhino (easy target), or drop pod(seriously considering this one) but then your at 300 pts for 10 guys to get into position and get some use..... how many guardsmen do you get for 300 pts again?

How about outflanking GH with full plasma, instead of scouts?

Northern85Star wrote:
How about outflanking GH with full plasma, instead of scouts?

One of the few spots where I'd go Hellblasters instead... 15" double-taps and an extra -1 on the AP.

Well the scouts get outflank for free vs spending a cp, but thats a good idea. Same with the hellblasters. Would force the enemy to really protect the board edges.

Im just trying to get the best out of GHs here people!

I prefer WG with jump packs, chainswords and combi-plasmas over helblasters. Drop them t2 close to your advancing wolf Lord and battle leader and have fun.

Lol i hear ya. I am thinking of getting a small guard detachment for the cp then using the guard cp to pay for grey hunters outflanking. Get some whirlwinds and basilisks for clearing a drop in spot t1 then t2 hitting them with a mass amount of outflanking. That may work best.

Made a quick list for a laugh. Not got current points but would certainly cause some headscratching.

Bonus is you can also outflank one of the wulfen units rather than transport them to keep your opponent guessing!


++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Wolves) [65 PL, 1131pts] ++

+ HQ +

Wolf Guard Battle Leader [6 PL, 99pts]: Jump Packs, Storm shield, Thunder hammer

Wolf Lord [6 PL, 129pts]: Jump Packs, Storm shield, Thunder hammer

+ Troops +

Blood Claws [15 PL, 229pts]
. 13x Blood Claw
. Blood Claw Pack Leader: Chainsword
. Wolf Guard Pack Leader in Terminator Armour: Storm shield, Thunder hammer

Blood Claws [4 PL, 65pts]
. 4x Blood Claw
. Blood Claw Pack Leader: Chainsword

Blood Claws [4 PL, 65pts]
. 4x Blood Claw
. Blood Claw Pack Leader: Chainsword

+ Elites +

Wulfen [13 PL, 235pts]
. Great frost axe
. 3x Thunder hammer & Stormshield: 3x Storm Shield, 3x Thunder Hammer
. 4x Wulfen
. Wulfen Pack Leader: Frost claws

Wulfen [13 PL, 235pts]
. Great frost axe
. 3x Thunder hammer & Stormshield: 3x Storm Shield, 3x Thunder Hammer
. 4x Wulfen
. Wulfen Pack Leader: Frost claws

+ Dedicated Transport +

Rhino [4 PL, 74pts]: 2x Storm bolter

++ Air Wing Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Wolves) [42 PL, 867pts] ++

+ Flyer +

Stormfang Gunship [14 PL, 309pts]: Helfrost destructor
. Two Lascannons: 2x Lascannon
. Two Twin Heavy Bolters: 2x Twin heavy bolter

Stormwolf [14 PL, 279pts]: Twin helfrost cannon
. Two Lascannons: 2x Lascannon
. Two Twin Heavy Bolters: 2x Twin heavy bolter

Stormwolf [14 PL, 279pts]: Twin helfrost cannon
. Two Lascannons: 2x Lascannon
. Two Twin Heavy Bolters: 2x Twin heavy bolter

++ Total: [107 PL, 1998pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

I really like the idea of the chaplain dreadnought kitted out for murder. Make it your warlord with saga of the beastslayer, give it a twin lascannon and the relic storm bolter and watch this boy WORK. 1CP he gets the wolf lord aura and 1 CP he can ignore all negatives to hit to really give someone a bad day with his 2+ to hit re-rolling. He's also heroically intervening six big boy inches to punch someone with a super angry fist. Shooting wise he would do well against monsters and vehicles due to his warlord trait giving him +1 to wound monsters and vehicles so nearly anything is getting wounded on a 2+ by the lascannon and 4+ by the bolter. For 212 points he is a pretty solid pick for a tanky and reliable warlord who can really dish out damage at range and melee.

Character protection, 9 wounds with a 6+++, 4 attacks s14 ap-3 3 damage at WS 2+ (or 1+ to avoid - to hit modifiers) on top of the relic bolter and two lascannon shots and a plethora of good stratagems makes this an awesome sounding choice. The only thing that makes me sad about it is that I primarily play Primaris and Deathwatch are better at that than space wolves so I'll get very limited use out of this guy.

 Garrlor wrote:

Northern85Star wrote:
The stratagem actually just says that the model gains the character keyword, how does that make him immune to morale?

Simply because he becomes a character and therefore a completely new unit. You only need to take the morale test for the unit that lost models as per the BRB. Fluff wise, all his pack dies in the shooting phase, he makes a unbreakable vow to avenge them and fights on. I didnt mean he becomes immune to morale completely, just the effects of the morale phase in this instance. It probably does need a faq to clear up mind you.

This makes logical sense not just fluff sense. why would they make a stratagem allowing this to happen if the character would just die to rmorale anyway? This is another case of read as intended because it makes sense.

TheunlikelyGamer wrote:

 Garrlor wrote:

Northern85Star wrote:
The stratagem actually just says that the model gains the character keyword, how does that make him immune to morale?

Simply because he becomes a character and therefore a completely new unit. You only need to take the morale test for the unit that lost models as per the BRB. Fluff wise, all his pack dies in the shooting phase, he makes a unbreakable vow to avenge them and fights on. I didnt mean he becomes immune to morale completely, just the effects of the morale phase in this instance. It probably does need a faq to clear up mind you.

This makes logical sense not just fluff sense. why would they make a stratagem allowing this to happen if the character would just die to rmorale anyway? This is another case of read as intended because it makes sense.

I would love if it was the case but raw it doesnt work that way. Nothing says becoming a character makes him a new unit, you are adding a keyword and new wounds to an exsisting unit that has dropped to 1 model. So as others have said, wait until you pass the moral or spend cp to autp pass, but you have to do it. I hope a faq gives us a pass on it, for the requirments to be met and since we already have to spend cp to do it it does make sense.

The logical thing is that you use the same datasheet, then just add the keyword “character”, increase W by 2, and the abilities to reroll to hit and to wound.

Let’s say he’s a GH. He is still a GH, a troop choice etc. He is still the same unit as he uses the same datasheet, but abilities have beem added. Nothing indicates that he is an entirely new unit, only that some things have been added to the units datasheet (and this can only proc when there is 1 model left).

I hope they FAQ it. It also makes the stratagem more powerful, as the unit autopasses the morale check with the stratagem for 1 cp. But i would rather have it not auto pass morale for 1 cp, than auto pass for 2 cp, for example.

I don't think it's an oversight. When a marine squad gets reduced to 1 man, sometimes the last guy runs away, even with space wolves. Other times the last guy doesn't run away, and space wolves have to cool option to let him get mad about it.

If they changed it to make it even better i wouldn't complain, but it's not like it doesn't currently;y work as intended.

I'm much more upset about the massive nerf to the auto-pass morale warlord trait before the book was even out -P

Has anyone tried an imperial bastion with their Long Fangs? Now that they are a centerpiece unit, paying a couple hundred points for 20 more T9 wounds doesn't sound too bad...