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They are also confused. At that moment they were dealing with a siege and focused on storming the walls and fort; whilst also fending off an attack from the rear by the defenders. Couple that with a powerful sun-blast and their moral basically breaks before the horses arrive at them. A unit with broken moral that isn't standing steadfast will crumble.
Plus don't forget a horse with rider charging at you is intimidating; a whole cavalry formation charging straight at you is even more so; likely twice so when its down a hill and you can see the vast numbers approaching. Again if you're in the front line and you're thinking of getting the heck out of there then you're not holding your pike up. You're not prepared and you are not thinking about bracing.
If anything it might actually highlight a weakness of Saurons army in that it was bred for war in an insanely short span of time. For all their training and physical might, they are green troops. They are more used to raiding and pillaging isolated groups and weak forces. At least in so far as the movie presents they are not a battle honed army, they are raiders. As a result they likely lack experience to really know how powerful their pike formation could have been.
If anything the attack that's more abnormal is the Rohan charge at the Minis Tirith battle. Since those units do have more time to form lines, though they are mostly smaller weaker orks. The other interesting aspect with that one is how far the Rohan are able to charge into the Orks - they tear through them like a rock through water.
Of course sometimes we have to remember that we only have written accounts of how cavalry charges work. We don't really do them in reality any more and haven't for a very long time. As a result there's a huge wall of theory that gets thrown up and examples from various points in history; but we don't have people who have experienced them or commanded them and we don't have video evidence of them taking place in different situations. Heck I'd wager that movies might be the only time that we actually get large groups of horse riders even attempting to ride in formation in a charge with armour and suchlike.
So even within the world of reality there is a bit of grey regarding how things worked and what did or could really happen.
One of which is that horses aren't blindly stupid so one issue is that the charge will fail because the horses will see the spikes and "Feth that I'm not running into that!" and will rear/shy away. Of course you also have herd dynamics going on so just as the herd can keep the formation going; if the wrong horse in the group pulls away the rest will try and follow.
Kayback wrote: Gandalf has never shown magic to be strong enough to carry charging horses down a slope, or to disrupt a shield /pike wall.
Gandalf was able to protect himself from the sword of the Balrog with a magical barrier, destroying the flaming sword in the process. He could easily protect the riders after being reborn more powerful than he was at the time he accomplished that feat.
And we already established that there was no shield or pike wall. None of the uruks with pikes have shields, the uruks bracing for the charge have pikes and the uruks also are not bracing at the point of impact as they are recoiling from the sun.
Protecting yourself from a strike vs carrying and entire cavalry force down a hillside. Now who's being rediculous?
No pikes here.
It isn't like the main weapon of the Urukhai seem to be pikes
If only those poor Urukhai had some pikes!
It's clear they had pikes, and they had them deployed. You don't need to see the attacking horsemen to hold your pike in the ground properly. Face it, it's a ridiculous charge that shouldn't have worked.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/08/11 12:07:01
Just quoting this in hopes that people who need to read it will read it.
Here's one of my favourites:
All three of the movies are far better and more touching than you'd expect from....well, films called Kung Fu Panda starring Jack Black. And that scene for me just gets the balance between the drama, the humour and Po's character arc perfectly right
"The 75mm gun is firing. The 37mm gun is firing, but is traversed round the wrong way. The Browning is jammed. I am saying "Driver, advance." and the driver, who can't hear me, is reversing. And as I look over the top of the turret and see twelve enemy tanks fifty yards away, someone hands me a cheese sandwich."
Kayback wrote: Gandalf has never shown magic to be strong enough to carry charging horses down a slope, or to disrupt a shield /pike wall.
Gandalf was able to protect himself from the sword of the Balrog with a magical barrier, destroying the flaming sword in the process. He could easily protect the riders after being reborn more powerful than he was at the time he accomplished that feat.
And we already established that there was no shield or pike wall. None of the uruks with pikes have shields, the uruks bracing for the charge have pikes and the uruks also are not bracing at the point of impact as they are recoiling from the sun.
Protecting yourself from a strike vs carrying and entire cavalry force down a hillside. Now who's being rediculous?
No pikes here.
It isn't like the main weapon of the Urukhai seem to be pikes
If only those poor Urukhai had some pikes!
It's clear they had pikes, and they had them deployed. You don't need to see the attacking horsemen to hold your pike in the ground properly. Face it, it's a ridiculous charge that shouldn't have worked.
I mean, considering a Balrog is on the level of an archangel, helping a cavalry charge seems pretty simple. He has proven to easily have that magic.
Those pikes were not braced. So those pikes were useless. Pointing out they had pikes means nothing when they weren't using them because Gandalf used magic and the surprise of a cavalry from basically over cliff. No chance to prepare. Simple and easy explanation. Come on. Watch the scene again.
Dreadwinter wrote: Right. Gandalf definitely doesn't know magic that could aid that charge in any way. He's not an Angel sent to stop Orcs and Sarumon or anything.
There is so much in that scene that explains why it works. Even posters here have explained it through real world physics. But uh, I guess just because it's fantasy we should ignore those explanations and be angry about it because it's a fantasy movie.
You know what? Nevermind. You're right. You're 1000% right. I'm silly for thinking that because we KNOW HOW HORSES WORK (or more to the point, don't) while charging full speed down a steep slope.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/12 00:16:24
On the one hand, I agree the scene was pretty ridiculous. On the other hand, I agree that it was ridiculously awesome. It makes me wonder how I would feel if I found out that the bulletin board from The Usual Suspects went against all kinds of regulations and could never have had half those flyers.
Dreadwinter wrote: Right. Gandalf definitely doesn't know magic that could aid that charge in any way. He's not an Angel sent to stop Orcs and Sarumon or anything.
There is so much in that scene that explains why it works. Even posters here have explained it through real world physics. But uh, I guess just because it's fantasy we should ignore those explanations and be angry about it because it's a fantasy movie.
You know what? Nevermind. You're right. You're 1000% right. I'm silly for thinking that because we KNOW HOW HORSES WORK (or more to the point, don't) while charging full speed down a steep slope.
What part of magic, miracle throwing wizard are we missing here? "BUT WE KNOW HOW HORSES WORK" Yes, in our world where magic does not exist. Funny thing, did you know in Tolkiens world, humans are not exactly like the humans here?
How about them Oliphaunts? I guess because we know how elephants work, it is ridiculous for Oliphaunts to exist.
How about trees? TREES DON'T WALK AND TALK! WE KNOW THIS!
Attempting to push real world physics on a fantasy setting is absurd at best, pretty funny from the outside though. I am guessing you complained a lot about the balrog, too.
I would take a small moment to point out that the Rohan don't ride horses like we'd understand horses. Those horses are descended (albeit distantly) from the lines of Shadowfax and his breed - horses that clearly display greater physical endurance and intelligence.
Honestly I think the first few seconds of the charge you can see that the hill is too steep - there's a scene where Gandalf almost slumps over Shadowfax and there's clearly no chance of them to build speed. It's only there for a few seconds and its odd that they included it when in the next they are doing a smooth CGI charge over the rise. In the end the concept isn't daft its just that the hill was dramatically too steep.
The pike formation falling apart makes sense - that is where the magic and the sun are to blind the enemy; couple that to somewhat green troops (used to raiding in a superior position and as yet not used to standing and holding the line outside of training); couple that to confusion (its a side attack whilst they are sieging whilst there's another side attack). The formation broke; the pikes were not held right nor were they deployed correctly. What should have been a total bloodbath turned into a major victory.
Dreadwinter wrote: Right. Gandalf definitely doesn't know magic that could aid that charge in any way. He's not an Angel sent to stop Orcs and Sarumon or anything.
There is so much in that scene that explains why it works. Even posters here have explained it through real world physics. But uh, I guess just because it's fantasy we should ignore those explanations and be angry about it because it's a fantasy movie.
You know what? Nevermind. You're right. You're 1000% right. I'm silly for thinking that because we KNOW HOW HORSES WORK (or more to the point, don't) while charging full speed down a steep slope.
What part of magic, miracle throwing wizard are we missing here? "BUT WE KNOW HOW HORSES WORK" Yes, in our world where magic does not exist. Funny thing, did you know in Tolkiens world, humans are not exactly like the humans here?
How about them Oliphaunts? I guess because we know how elephants work, it is ridiculous for Oliphaunts to exist.
How about trees? TREES DON'T WALK AND TALK! WE KNOW THIS!
Attempting to push real world physics on a fantasy setting is absurd at best, pretty funny from the outside though. I am guessing you complained a lot about the balrog, too.
No,no, you're right, verisimilitude is vastly overrated.
Gandalf's magic permanently blinded the Uruk-hai, leaving them unable to mount any defense.
Does that make you happy, or do they need to share the Uruk's eye exam information in the liner notes for you to be comfortable? It's all about you, so let us know.
Dreadwinter wrote: Right. Gandalf definitely doesn't know magic that could aid that charge in any way. He's not an Angel sent to stop Orcs and Sarumon or anything.
There is so much in that scene that explains why it works. Even posters here have explained it through real world physics. But uh, I guess just because it's fantasy we should ignore those explanations and be angry about it because it's a fantasy movie.
You know what? Nevermind. You're right. You're 1000% right. I'm silly for thinking that because we KNOW HOW HORSES WORK (or more to the point, don't) while charging full speed down a steep slope.
What part of magic, miracle throwing wizard are we missing here? "BUT WE KNOW HOW HORSES WORK" Yes, in our world where magic does not exist. Funny thing, did you know in Tolkiens world, humans are not exactly like the humans here?
How about them Oliphaunts? I guess because we know how elephants work, it is ridiculous for Oliphaunts to exist.
How about trees? TREES DON'T WALK AND TALK! WE KNOW THIS!
Attempting to push real world physics on a fantasy setting is absurd at best, pretty funny from the outside though. I am guessing you complained a lot about the balrog, too.
No one has explained why a horse bumps an Uruk Hai - probably approaching 300 lbs and sends them flying away while not even flinching or being slowed in the slightest (we know it's because those Uruk Hai don't exist and were added in post, but still). No one (except for you and your explanation was basically "it's magic!") explained how horses can survive that charge even if there weren't Uruk Hai at the bottom.
But the thing I really don't like, the thing that you are excusing and defending? It is pure invention. It's the filmmakers change to Tolkien's work. In the book it's Erkenbrand and his infantry that descend the ridge. The only horse mentioned is Shadowfax - who is a Mearas and thus gets a pass - and their mere presence combined with the charge out of the Deep and the Rock and the sounding of Helm's Horn and the appearance of a mystery forest directly behind them overnight that panics the Uruk Hai and sends them to flight. It's not even clear that Erkenbrand engages. But Peter Jackson needed to turn Helm's Deep into a big showcase battle, so he dressed it up and put his spin on it - and like every change that he makes from Tolkien's work it showcases exactly how little he knows about warfare in general and especially about pre-modern warfare.
No one has explained why a horse bumps an Uruk Hai - probably approaching 300 lbs and sends them flying away while not even flinching or being slowed in the slightest (we know it's because those Uruk Hai don't exist and were added in post, but still).
Because a warhorse weighs upwards of 1200 pounds before you factor in saddle, armour and rider.
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Any chance the threadjack could be taken elsewhere? I promise I'll still respect whoever doesn't get the last word in.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/12 19:11:13
"The 75mm gun is firing. The 37mm gun is firing, but is traversed round the wrong way. The Browning is jammed. I am saying "Driver, advance." and the driver, who can't hear me, is reversing. And as I look over the top of the turret and see twelve enemy tanks fifty yards away, someone hands me a cheese sandwich."
Yes. I will allow that scene. Mostly because it fits narratively and looked ace as a kid, but also I remain an absolute sucker for non-cgi special effects (this does not mean I don’t like cgi, or have any problem with it)
I mean......just......watch it. The impressive fx for it’s era. The scenery chosen. The music.
This is sixty years old pretty soon but man was this so far beyond anything else that was happening in 1963, and sci fi/fantasy for a LONG time after. Lots of good sequences from this movie but the skeletons in Jason & The Argonauts are a standout
Gandalfs magic is powerful enough to cause dawn to happen in the hobbit. That means either he moved the sun or he moved the world. (Depending on if middleearth is a solar system or a geo system)
Pretty sure making a flash of light that throws off a defensive line is well within his ability.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/08/12 22:40:49
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Lance845 wrote: Gandalfs magic is powerful enough to cause dawn to happen in the hobbit. That means either he moved the sun or he moved the world. (Depending on if middleearth is a solar system or a geo system)
Pretty sure making a flash of light that throws off a defensive line is well within his ability.
Gandalf didn't cause the dawn. He kept the trolls arguing until dawn came by impersonating their voices so they couldn't decide what to do.
Though also in The Hobbit he killed goblins with a flash of lightning, then followed the goblins whilst invisible and then plunged the meeting with the Great Goblin into darkness before killing him with Glamdring.
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
If we are going to talk about special effects I'd like to mention one film that has a great scene that I don't think gets the appreciation it deserves for the effects.
The DEATH scene from the Meaning of Life. Personally I think that whilst its not the most animated they manage to do one of the most skeletal and properly creepy Grim Reapers. No oversized polished white bone here. They even go to lengths to make the clothes look like they hang over a skeleton - bony shoulders; ribcage showing etc...
Lance845 wrote: Gandalfs magic is powerful enough to cause dawn to happen in the hobbit. That means either he moved the sun or he moved the world. (Depending on if middleearth is a solar system or a geo system)
Pretty sure making a flash of light that throws off a defensive line is well within his ability.
At that time, I believe the sun was one of the Maiar trapped in a cycle around the planet that contains Middle Earth. Perhaps Gandalf asked him for a favor.
In terms of magical feats, Gandalf is wildly inconsistent.
I actually really like the end scene in Sam Raimi's Spider-man, it is the epilogue but in the epilogue the Hero explains why he did not get the girl.
I remember being in the theater and being floored by the fact that a bug Hollywood movie did not have the hero get the girl at the end, damn the canon.
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Easy E wrote: I actually really like the end scene in Sam Raimi's Spider-man, it is the epilogue but in the epilogue the Hero explains why he did not get the girl.
I remember being in the theater and being floored by the fact that a bug Hollywood movie did not have the hero get the girl at the end, damn the canon.
still think the Raimi Spiderman film is the high watermark for Spidey hi-jinx, Homecoming is okay but l felt lent a bit hard on the MCU
Adding the scene from True Romance with Hopper and Walken, admittedly its peak QT but still the finest version of that trope
"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED."
- Inglorious Basterds: the entire sequence at the pub, when some of the bastards are meeting the spy while a group of drunk nazi soldiers is celebrating one of them becoming a father and an SS officer steps in to join the fun. Just amazing, I've watched it like 20 times.
This movie has a lot to pick from. For my money, I'll give it to the opening, in which Waltz is just a mesmerizing horror. Particularly when you notice things like how he greets people by the wrist instead of palm so he can check their pulse and its just easily one of the best sequences put to film.
The cinematography, the music (why has Thomas Newman not won an Oscar yet?) and use of that music and the removal and reintroduction of the diagetic sound in the scene, the emotion expressed by Tom Hanks and Paul Newman without needing to say a word and the impact that unspoken emotion gives the only line of the scene.
Also Connor's death. The way the music is building as we follow Michael through the hotel and it reaches that final swell as he fires his gun and leaves the room, catching the door which swings to reveal the aftermath in the attached mirror.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/08/14 19:52:48
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Not strictly cinema(? idk) but very cinematic, my favourite scene from anything ever is when Uncle Junior shoots Tony.
Just everything about this - the jaunty music humming along, Tony's desperate struggle for help and the camera angles, the pasta boiling on as Tony's life slips away, Junior's reaction during the attack and subsequently. This is peak cinematography.
