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the_scotsman wrote:

Spoiler:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
However that doesn't change the fact that this ancient and powerful artifact of a gun is worse than this new Primaris standard equipment. It's just another blip in the constant insult-to-other-factions that is Primaris.

It's the "old profile versus new profile" effect.
If Fire Dragon were introduced now, they'd be 2W 3+ 4++ models with a weapons that shots 1d3 shot at 18" S12 with straight up 2d6 damage. Or maybe 4d3 damage, even better.
Compare heavy bolter with rotor cannons, in the SAME unit (chaos havocs). One is old and one is new.

Right, like when they released those new kits for howling banshees and jain zar and -

-no wait, hold on.

New kit, same old profile, just like the new csm models. Gw refuses to update the 3rd-7th unit profiles for the new rules, while new units get profiles that are designed to function within them. Old units are given strategems and points cuts instead, so what used to be an elite unit becomes chaff. This, of course, favors the faction that gets the vast majority of new units. Guess who that is.

 Therion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Therion wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
LOL like the Super Doctrine matters at that point. You also can't just include those benefits if you won't do the same for Custodes.

Marines have chapter tactics that make a difference and they’re active. If Marines don’t have their tactics and doctrines I guess the Custodes have a 5++ only then.

I was clearly referring to the Super Doctrines and HQ support.

Advancing and charging, or 6++ fnp, are not super doctrines. Yet nobody accounted for any of that in this thread when comparing mobility or durability. But of course the army synergies should also be taken into account. But I didn’t even talk about stratagems. Marines have the Custodes beat there also.

And if you want to use the defensive bonuses for them when it comes to being shot go ahead.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Oh? How does that theory hold up with the new Necron kits?

I don't know. I'm basing it on the kellermorph and the havoc rotor gun mostly.

the_scotsman wrote:
Right, like when they released those new kits for howling banshees and jain zar and -
-no wait, hold on.

It's not about new kit, it's about date of introduction of the rule. GW is very reluctant to change established profile. Look at the marines, they stacked bolter doctrines and shock assault onto them rather than change the bolter profile or give marines another attack on their profile. Sisters of Battle also staid with exactly the same profile when they got their new kits.
So things that existed in the rule a long time ago have weak profile, new stuff introduced recently in the rule has strong profile.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Oh? How does that theory hold up with the new Necron kits?

I don't know. I'm basing it on the kellermorph and the havoc rotor gun mostly.

the_scotsman wrote:
Right, like when they released those new kits for howling banshees and jain zar and -
-no wait, hold on.

It's not about new kit, it's about date of introduction of the rule. GW is very reluctant to change established profile. Look at the marines, they stacked bolter doctrines and shock assault onto them rather than change the bolter profile or give marines another attack on their profile. Sisters of Battle also staid with exactly the same profile when they got their new kits.
So things that existed in the rule a long time ago have weak profile, new stuff introduced recently in the rule has strong profile.

New gun for Necron Warriors: Range 14" Rapid Fire 1 S5 AP-2
Old Warrior gun: Range 24" Rapid Fire 1 S4 AP-1

New weapon is a definite hard choice, but not flat-out superior as your theory would claim. 14" range is a biiiig limitation. I see this as a good example of genuine balance. I think the point costs are still unknown.

Eradicator Melta Rifle? Better in every way to every other Melta weapon. Just flatly superior by the looks of it.

The Necron gun is supposed to be a free swap.

I do notice a bit of a difference in design philosophy between new Primaris units and new units for other factions.

Take the new transports introduced in 8th, for instance.

Primaris: Innate 4++, enemies get -2 to charge rolls, and a unique special rule to drop units off after moving.

AdMech: It's a flying Chimera that gives +1Ld to units within 3".

Like, one is comparable to existing units in the game, and the other gets unique and powerful special rules out of nowhere. It's not even a matter of points; it's just from a design standpoint Primaris don't seem to have any limits on what they can have or do. It's not universally a new profiles vs old profiles thing; it seems to matter much more who the profile is for.

Edit: Although for a contrary example, while not as egregious, Pteraxii having Assault 5 guns seems a little ridiculous.

Things were a lot simpler when you could reasonably infer that a non-character humanoid model had 1 wound and a rifle would get 2, maybe 3 shots. Some of the new profiles feel very... arbitrary is the right word, I guess. For starters, the relationship between what T, W, and Sv each represent on a model is a lot murkier than it used to be; now more armor sometimes gives you a better Sv, but sometimes it's higher T, or sometimes it's an extra W.

The impulsor doesn't have an innate 4++. It only has that if you take an upgrade that increases the cost by about 25% and if you do you can't take any of the better guns. Most marine players I know didn't think the implusor was even competitive before the bladeguard were released.

Also the ability to drop off units after moving gave the impulsor the nickname locally of the suicide sled. Because any unit that took advantage of the rule always died the next turn.

 catbarf wrote:

AdMech: It's a flying Chimera that gives +1Ld to units within 3".

i fething wish

 catbarf wrote:

Edit: Although for a contrary example, while not as egregious, Pteraxii having Assault 5 guns seems a little ridiculous.

That's the leader only and there's a lot more to that unit.

1 point less than an Intercessor -- M12 FLY WS3 BS3 S4 T3 W2 A2 4+/6++

+1A when charging
Deepstrike
"Fly High"
Canticles

In shooting -
Leader : 12" pistol 5 S3 AP0
Unit : 12" assault D6 S4 AP1; Auto-hit; Ignores cover

In melee on the charge -
Leader : 4 S6 AP0; Unmod 6s to hit cause 2 additional hits
Unit : 3 S5 AP1

 catbarf wrote:


Edit: Although for a contrary example, while not as egregious, Pteraxii having Assault 5 guns seems a little ridiculous.
.

infiltrator flechette pistols already had 5 shots, so flechette carbines get 5 shots.

@Deadalus:
There’s 2 variants.

Dandelion wrote:

 catbarf wrote:


Edit: Although for a contrary example, while not as egregious, Pteraxii having Assault 5 guns seems a little ridiculous.
.

infiltrator flechette pistols already had 5 shots, so flechette carbines get 5 shots.

@Deadalus:
There’s 2 variants.

Yea, I mentally went to the melee ones, because...frikken' flamer.

The rooty-tooty-point-and-shooties are no less gifted. 3+ to cause a mortal wound on a vehicle they flew over (5+ otherwise) for each model.

 Blood Hawk wrote:
The impulsor doesn't have an innate 4++. It only has that if you take an upgrade that increases the cost by about 25% and if you do you can't take any of the better guns. Most marine players I know didn't think the implusor was even competitive before the bladeguard were released.

Also the ability to drop off units after moving gave the impulsor the nickname locally of the suicide sled. Because any unit that took advantage of the rule always died the next turn.

Yeah if anything the Impuslor trying to use its ability for the Bladeguard just ensures they don't get into melee and just die.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

Edit: Although for a contrary example, while not as egregious, Pteraxii having Assault 5 guns seems a little ridiculous.

That's the leader only and there's a lot more to that unit.

1 point less than an Intercessor -- M12 FLY WS3 BS3 S4 T3 W2 A2 4+/6++

+1A when charging
Deepstrike
"Fly High"
Canticles

In shooting -
Leader : 12" pistol 5 S3 AP0
Unit : 12" assault D6 S4 AP1; Auto-hit; Ignores cover

In melee on the charge -
Leader : 4 S6 AP0; Unmod 6s to hit cause 2 additional hits
Unit : 3 S5 AP1

So what are you saying here Daed? Are you just pointing out that other factions have units that are good in comparison to loyalists or agreeing that new units seem to get better data sheets than older units that existed in previous editions? I mean, I look at all that and compare it to raptors and assault marines and think .

Yeah, there does seem to be a trend of new units getting rules designed specifically for this edition, while older models hang on to legacy rules that happen to still apply, while losing ones that are no longer valid.

For example, kroot used to have 2 attacks because their gun had a good melee profile. They used to benefit from forest cover more than most units and could move through difficult terrain easily. They could also infiltrate in the same way as stealth suits. Now? They lost their second attack because no one could be bothered to give them A2 on their profile after stripping it from their gun, forests no longer do anything, difficult terrain doesn’t exist and their infiltrate got nerfed to being a scout move. At 4 points they were decent as speed bumps, which is hella boring. They just don’t bring anything unique to the table.

I would imagine many Eldar aspects fall into the same boat.

Difficult terrain is back, that could offer an opportunity to bring back rules that allow units to ignore it. Chosen lost their ability to infiltrate as well, with no replacement. Old units only lose things, it seems.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

So what are you saying here Daed? Are you just pointing out that other factions have units that are good in comparison to loyalists or agreeing that new units seem to get better data sheets than older units that existed in previous editions? I mean, I look at all that and compare it to raptors and assault marines and think .

That these are really good units and that Primaris are not the only ones being "gifted".

The Overlord got a 3" boost to his aura and it works on everything as opposed to just INFANTRY.
Necron Warriors picked up RR 1s on reanimate.
Scarabs went to always wounding on 5s to hit and wound on 6s to hit.

Primaris units don't have a plethora of super special rules. Each unit has one or sometimes two things it does extra. Eradicators double shoot. Aggressors double shoot or run and gun. Suppressors block O/W. Outriders get +2A on the charge. Inceptors do MW on the charge.

People are just very practiced at freaking out about marines, because of doctrines and traits.

the_scotsman wrote:


One single S4 AP-1 D2 attack at 12" range = FAR SUPERIOR.

Yeah one extra attack with all attacks being higher quality and more likely to hit because of BS 2+.

So 33% more shots, with each shot being 100% higher damage and 25% more likely to hit constitutes "far superior" for its points compared to Bladeguard shooting. Which doesn't even consider the fact that their range is 33% higher.

Removed - Remember Rule 1 please

Far superior in relation to garbage doesn’t mean it’s good.

Custodes can shoot. Custodian Guard... not so much. Not effectively, at least.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Far superior in relation to garbage doesn’t mean it’s good.

Custodes can shoot. Custodian Guard... not so much. Not effectively, at least.

Consider debating points I actually made before posting my friend.

I see a lot of the Indomitus units coming up on auction sites now, like Ebay, funnily enough the Eradicators, Outriders and Bladeguard seem much higher priced than the other contents in the box, and also seem to be selling at that pricepoint. I wonder why?

Also, here's one ranking of the armies in ninth:

https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/07/40k-power-ranking-every-faction-in-9th-edition-chapter-tactics.html

Guess which army is on top?

shortymcnostrill wrote:
I do wonder which antitank unit we should be comparing eradicators to. Is there one to which they compare unfavorably? How do three of them with buffbots* fare compared to a shadowsword for example?

Leman Russ Demolisher with a hull LC vs four Eradicators. Same shot count, same damage, one less Ap but +2 S (mostly), one less BS but 10 fewer points, T8 vs T5 with the same total wounds but all in one basket. Marines and Guard both have access to some pretty silly levels of buff-stacking.

The Newman wrote:

shortymcnostrill wrote:
I do wonder which antitank unit we should be comparing eradicators to. Is there one to which they compare unfavorably? How do three of them with buffbots* fare compared to a shadowsword for example?

Leman Russ Demolisher with a hull LC vs four Eradicators. Same shot count, same damage, one less Ap but +2 S (mostly), one less BS but 10 fewer points, T8 vs T5 with the same total wounds but all in one basket. Marines and Guard both have access to some pretty silly levels of buff-stacking.

As I see it a Leman Russ Demolisher with hull LC is 10 points more?
And less accurate.
And probably has, on average, 4.5 shots compared with 8 versus most of the things you are going to shoot with that sort of weapon?

Tyel wrote:

The Newman wrote:

shortymcnostrill wrote:
I do wonder which antitank unit we should be comparing eradicators to. Is there one to which they compare unfavorably? How do three of them with buffbots* fare compared to a shadowsword for example?

Leman Russ Demolisher with a hull LC vs four Eradicators. Same shot count, same damage, one less Ap but +2 S (mostly), one less BS but 10 fewer points, T8 vs T5 with the same total wounds but all in one basket. Marines and Guard both have access to some pretty silly levels of buff-stacking.

As I see it a Leman Russ Demolisher with hull LC is 10 points more?
And less accurate.
And probably has, on average, 4.5 shots compared with 8 versus most of the things you are going to shoot with that sort of weapon?

They double-tap if they move less than half speed.

^^^ Yeah, the Russ averages 8 shots without support. ...it is 10 point more though, not sure how I did that wrong.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

So what are you saying here Daed? Are you just pointing out that other factions have units that are good in comparison to loyalists or agreeing that new units seem to get better data sheets than older units that existed in previous editions? I mean, I look at all that and compare it to raptors and assault marines and think .

That these are really good units and that Primaris are not the only ones being "gifted".

The Overlord got a 3" boost to his aura and it works on everything as opposed to just INFANTRY.
Necron Warriors picked up RR 1s on reanimate.
Scarabs went to always wounding on 5s to hit and wound on 6s to hit.

Primaris units don't have a plethora of super special rules. Each unit has one or sometimes two things it does extra. Eradicators double shoot. Aggressors double shoot or run and gun. Suppressors block O/W. Outriders get +2A on the charge. Inceptors do MW on the charge.

People are just very practiced at freaking out about marines, because of doctrines and traits.

Right, the new Admech jump infantry are good, they're also new. Gw seems reluctant to give new rules or stats to old units, even when they get new models like the aforementioned Banshees and csm. That's why it looks like primaris are always getting all the rules: they get the bulk of new models which get new rules. Gw needs to start updating older units so they can compete with the new ones, at minimum they should give them back some of the rules that they took away (why did my Chosen forget how to infiltrate?). As many have said, a big problem with the eradicators is how they look compared to older anti-tank infantry units. Eradicators wouldn't look as bad if multi-meltas were given improved rules. As I've said before, I don't want new units, I just want better rules for the units I already have. I think many would agree.

Your Chosen didn't forget how to infiltrate. They simply decided that was cowardly unless you decide you're Alpha Legion. FORGE THE NARRATIVE!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Your Chosen didn't forget how to infiltrate. They simply decided that was cowardly unless you decide you're Alpha Legion. FORGE THE NARRATIVE!

Getting closer to the enemy is cowardly?

 JNAProductions wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Your Chosen didn't forget how to infiltrate. They simply decided that was cowardly unless you decide you're Alpha Legion. FORGE THE NARRATIVE!

Getting closer to the enemy is cowardly?

Getting closer all sneaky like is cowardly compared to taking all the enemy's firepower! Those Chosen are actually Orks in disguise! FORGE THE NARRATIVE!

Totto wrote:
I see a lot of the Indomitus units coming up on auction sites now, like Ebay, funnily enough the Eradicators, Outriders and Bladeguard seem much higher priced than the other contents in the box, and also seem to be selling at that pricepoint. I wonder why?

Also, here's one ranking of the armies in ninth:

https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2020/07/40k-power-ranking-every-faction-in-9th-edition-chapter-tactics.html

Guess which army is on top?

They're going to be a higher price, because people don't need 3 captains or 3 judiciars, but they might want 9 outriders so to recoup cost the units that will sell will get higher prices.

Today Peteypab brings you all a way too early power rankings of all the 40k factions.

Yes, it is far too early, Petey. Especially since we know about a codex with trait updates at a minimum.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Your Chosen didn't forget how to infiltrate. They simply decided that was cowardly unless you decide you're Alpha Legion. FORGE THE NARRATIVE!

Getting closer to the enemy is cowardly?

Getting closer all sneaky like is cowardly compared to taking all the enemy's firepower! Those Chosen are actually Orks in disguise! FORGE THE NARRATIVE!

Sneaky? Cowardly? Have you heard of the Night Lords before?