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 Turnip Jedi wrote:
If I was a betting man (yep still sore about the footy...) I'd wager RDJ may well be voicing Ironhearts suit

While I super loved AI Tony in the comics, they haven’t really set it up here and it’ll probably be her later/current AI of her dead friend, which is unfortunately way less entertaining, but that’s probably because the writer changed.

 Azreal13 wrote:
In fact, setting Happy up as Tony's go between may have been a conscious attempt to keep RDJ down to a minimum to avoid stealing focus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gorgon wrote:
Okay, so let me define "guest-star fest" this way -- No Way Home in terms of apparent quantity of guest appearance and easter eggs, and Homecoming and Far From Home in more qualitative terms...i.e. putting Spider-Man in Iron Man's shadow. RDJ was barely in Far From Home, but the movie was a lot about Tony Stark and Peter's relationship with him. Who needs Uncle Ben as an inspiration, anyway? That guy never made one wisecrack!

I can anticipate most of the arguments that are about to come my way. But the fact is I'm much more of a fan of Marvel comics than the MCU and I don't like how the MCU was more or less the IMCU. I'll be the first to admit that RDJ put the whole franchise on his back in the early going. But I feel that they continued to make it too much about Tony Stark, and that other characters suffered as a result.

I know that shoehorning RDJ into films to boost the BO is really just classic Hollywood filmmaking. And yet because they leaned on him SO much, I think the next phase will be very interesting for Marvel. I think the returns will probably be fine, but I'm not 100% certain they'll be able to stay away from the BO crack named RDJ.

That's a weird definition of guest star anything. What it seems like you don't like are some of the narrative and world building choices, which of course is fine, but not really what you said initially.

Eh. I think it all goes to the films not being as centered on Tom Holland and classic Spidey mythology as they could be.

Yes...Spider-Man has guest-starred plenty of times in the comics. Yes, that's because he's their #1 attraction by far and boosts sales of any comic he appears in. And yes, what the MCU is doing is using that same scheme -- just inverted -- to prop up the Spidey movies because Spidey brought up the rear somewhat in the MCU.

I'm really not even the biggest Spidey fan...but that still feels very backwards to me. It's Spider-Man. It's Marvel's best character, with the most classic storylines and easily the best rogues gallery. If they want to do the Sinister Six, great! But write it and cast it around *this* Spider-Man and what works best for him instead of making it a big 'memberberry pie with some Into the Spider-Verse frosting. Maybe they feel they don't have the time to do the SS in a more organic way because of rights and such. Maybe we're back to that whole tangled mess.

I dunno. This film feels very studio-concepted and -assembled rather than being about a good story idea. Marvel is definitely VERY studio-driven over being director-driven, but they can do a really good job of telling a strong core story when they want to. This doesn't feel like that at all, but I haven't seen the film and could be completely wrong.

/rant

I don't think it's going to be for a long time either. Remember. Infinity War was over 10 years of cinema. Recasting Tony and Steve is another 10 years down the line.

Yes but now they've tasted the forbidden fruit of Infinity War cash cow. I highly doubt they'll wait ten years for another version of that. Five years tops.

On the contrary, I'd argue padding out the road to Infinity War 2 with even more films will be more profitable than rushing to get there.

Especially because taking their time to get there is what made Infinity War work and rushing is what made Justice League not.

 gorgon wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
In fact, setting Happy up as Tony's go between may have been a conscious attempt to keep RDJ down to a minimum to avoid stealing focus.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gorgon wrote:
Okay, so let me define "guest-star fest" this way -- No Way Home in terms of apparent quantity of guest appearance and easter eggs, and Homecoming and Far From Home in more qualitative terms...i.e. putting Spider-Man in Iron Man's shadow. RDJ was barely in Far From Home, but the movie was a lot about Tony Stark and Peter's relationship with him. Who needs Uncle Ben as an inspiration, anyway? That guy never made one wisecrack!

I can anticipate most of the arguments that are about to come my way. But the fact is I'm much more of a fan of Marvel comics than the MCU and I don't like how the MCU was more or less the IMCU. I'll be the first to admit that RDJ put the whole franchise on his back in the early going. But I feel that they continued to make it too much about Tony Stark, and that other characters suffered as a result.

I know that shoehorning RDJ into films to boost the BO is really just classic Hollywood filmmaking. And yet because they leaned on him SO much, I think the next phase will be very interesting for Marvel. I think the returns will probably be fine, but I'm not 100% certain they'll be able to stay away from the BO crack named RDJ.

That's a weird definition of guest star anything. What it seems like you don't like are some of the narrative and world building choices, which of course is fine, but not really what you said initially.

Eh. I think it all goes to the films not being as centered on Tom Holland and classic Spidey mythology as they could be.

Yes...Spider-Man has guest-starred plenty of times in the comics. Yes, that's because he's their #1 attraction by far and boosts sales of any comic he appears in. And yes, what the MCU is doing is using that same scheme -- just inverted -- to prop up the Spidey movies because Spidey brought up the rear somewhat in the MCU.

I'm really not even the biggest Spidey fan...but that still feels very backwards to me. It's Spider-Man. It's Marvel's best character, with the most classic storylines and easily the best rogues gallery. If they want to do the Sinister Six, great! But write it and cast it around *this* Spider-Man and what works best for him instead of making it a big 'memberberry pie with some Into the Spider-Verse frosting. Maybe they feel they don't have the time to do the SS in a more organic way because of rights and such. Maybe we're back to that whole tangled mess.

I dunno. This film feels very studio-concepted and -assembled rather than being about a good story idea. Marvel is definitely VERY studio-driven over being director-driven, but they can do a really good job of telling a strong core story when they want to. This doesn't feel like that at all, but I haven't seen the film and could be completely wrong.

/rant

Yeah I've beenr eading the old ASM comics, (currently on issue 146) and it's intreasting how many characters have appered in spidy first as ESSENTIALLY an advertisement for their comic.

 Ahtman wrote:
One More Day was such a well loved and popular story line I'm glad to see them adapt it to the MCU.

Civil War wasn't that well-received in the comics, but turned into one of the best movies.

 Frazzled wrote:
Yes but now they've tasted the forbidden fruit of Infinity War cash cow. I highly doubt they'll wait ten years for another version of that. Five years tops.

Agreed. There was a period a few years ago where the comics were pushing events left and right like they had no tomorrow. If memory serves, it got so bloated that some events pushed others under the radar.

I’m going to be optimistic and assume that there will be a reasonable enough amoutnof time before the next massive buildup event, but subsequent attempts (assuming they continue after that) might get a bit hasty.

A few years ago? They’re Still doing near constant events.

 SkavenLord wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Yes but now they've tasted the forbidden fruit of Infinity War cash cow. I highly doubt they'll wait ten years for another version of that. Five years tops.

Agreed. There was a period a few years ago where the comics were pushing events left and right like they had no tomorrow. If memory serves, it got so bloated that some events pushed others under the radar.

I’m going to be optimistic and assume that there will be a reasonable enough amoutnof time before the next massive buildup event, but subsequent attempts (assuming they continue after that) might get a bit hasty.

Cursory Google, so please forgive any inaccuracies. It seems Secret War is going to be the next big crossover they’ve going for.

Certainly nothing on the slate obviously related to smashing in Kang’s teeth.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, with the raft of existing characters, and new ones coming very very soon, they likely won’t need the 10 year run up?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 SkavenLord wrote:

 Frazzled wrote:
Yes but now they've tasted the forbidden fruit of Infinity War cash cow. I highly doubt they'll wait ten years for another version of that. Five years tops.

Agreed. There was a period a few years ago where the comics were pushing events left and right like they had no tomorrow. If memory serves, it got so bloated that some events pushed others under the radar.

I’m going to be optimistic and assume that there will be a reasonable enough amoutnof time before the next massive buildup event, but subsequent attempts (assuming they continue after that) might get a bit hasty.

Cursory Google, so please forgive any inaccuracies. It seems Secret War is going to be the next big crossover they’ve going for.

Certainly nothing on the slate obviously related to smashing in Kang’s teeth.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, with the raft of existing characters, and new ones coming very very soon, they likely won’t need the 10 year run up?

I remember Secret War. I also remember the other Secret War and the other Secret War. It’s very likely not the second one if we’re getting into multiverse shenanigans. For the third one, we will need Doom or at least some kind of Doom equivalent.

 AduroT wrote:
A few years ago? They’re Still doing near constant events.

Bugger, I thought we were past that after Secret Empire. What kinds of events are they up to these days?

Marvel just finished King in Black, a Venom thing that covered the world in symbiotes. I think they’re working up to another Infinity War/Stones thing again, but I don’t tend to follow news about upcoming stuff. DC finished Metal, then did Future State, and they’ve got a Fear State thing coming soon, but that might just involve the Batman titles (but those are practically half of what DC does now).

 AduroT wrote:
, but that might just involve the Batman titles (but those are practically half of what DC does now).

yeah their... october releases are like 75% batman titles.

I think it's going to be a combo 1 and 3 secret wars. Beyond kicks it off, Doom steals his power (as he did and Doom is want to do) and then we get God Emperor Doom for Secret Wars part 2.

 Elemental wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
One More Day was such a well loved and popular story line I'm glad to see them adapt it to the MCU.

Civil War wasn't that well-received in the comics, but turned into one of the best movies.

I thought the basic premise was silly. "Look at all the destruction in New York, let's blame the Avengers and punish them for saving the world from alien invasion!' That sort of attitude would make me hang up my cape and join Rorschach. Indeed, something similar is a leading reason why I quit a long-running superhero RPG.

 Vulcan wrote:

 Elemental wrote:

 Ahtman wrote:
One More Day was such a well loved and popular story line I'm glad to see them adapt it to the MCU.

Civil War wasn't that well-received in the comics, but turned into one of the best movies.

I thought the basic premise was silly. "Look at all the destruction in New York, let's blame the Avengers and punish them for saving the world from alien invasion!' That sort of attitude would make me hang up my cape and join Rorschach. Indeed, something similar is a leading reason why I quit a long-running superhero RPG.

Except it wasn't "Blame the avengers for New York" it was "Blame the Avengers for Ultron, the sentient AI that one of the avengers literally created."

Don't forget the explosion at the Wakandan embassy in a foreign nation*.

And Hulk and Iron Man rampaging through another.


*I can't recall what country off the top of my head just that neither they nor Wakanda were happy about it.

Also the Hulk smashing up Harlem because he had a grudge match with Abomination. Though you might note that General Ross left that one off his list since he basically instigated it.

 Lance845 wrote:
Also the Hulk smashing up Harlem because he had a grudge match with Abomination. Though you might note that General Ross left that one off his list since he basically instigated it.

Well that and it was pre-official MCU. Come to think of it I’m a little surprised how strongly they referenced the Hulk movie in What If, I thought there was a rights issue with those movies? Or was it ambiguous enough to pass muster?

That was not pre MCU. It was made by marvel studios. It in the phase 1 box set and the infinity saga box set.

The rights dispute is for the distribution of a solo hulk film. MGM or Paramount (doesnt really matter) have the distribution rights. Not the character rights. It was pre Disney purchasing Marvel but not before Marvel Studios was doing it's thing.

EDIT: Never mind...

And even after all of that, it was left up for discussion if superhero registration and oversight was appropriate, with plausible arguments from both sides that made sense for the characters advocating them.

The comic version of the event took a valid argument, and then botched it something hardcore, with the pro-registration side using extradimensional prisons, sending armed guards round to forcibly take in someone who had said they were retiring from heroics, Spiderman being hunted down by mercenary villains when he defected, teenage heroes being threatened at gunpoint, and Captain America getting tackled by the Heroes of 9/11, then being declared obsolete because he didn't know what Myspace was. Mark Millar, everyone!

 Elemental wrote:
And even after all of that, it was left up for discussion if superhero registration and oversight was appropriate, with plausible arguments from both sides that made sense for the characters advocating them.

The comic version of the event took a valid argument, and then botched it something hardcore, with the pro-registration side using extradimensional prisons, sending armed guards round to forcibly take in someone who had said they were retiring from heroics, Spiderman being hunted down by mercenary villains when he defected, teenage heroes being threatened at gunpoint, and Captain America getting tackled by the Heroes of 9/11, then being declared obsolete because he didn't know what Myspace was. Mark Millar, everyone!

yeah I rememebr that, when some writer said "I don't think cap is relevant anymore because he proably doesn't know what myspace is"

From just this past week’s United States of Captain America.

 SkavenLord wrote:

I remember Secret War. I also remember the other Secret War and the other Secret War. It’s very likely not the second one if we’re getting into multiverse shenanigans. For the third one, we will need Doom or at least some kind of Doom equivalent.

Honestly, introducing Doom IN Secret Wars is probably the best way we could hope to get a good version of Doom in the comics. Do the whole Rabum Alal thing. Shady cult leader destroying the multiverse with a mix of advanced science and magic. Sets up a nice, "but you may call me Doom" moment so his name seems less silly.

We ARE getting a Fantastic Four movie soon, but the main problem with trying to use Doom in the first Fantastic Four film is that family is so focused on science that you end up trying to "ground" Doom in the same world. That's why he ends up being a businessman who shares in the accident and gets powers from it with the team. His origins need to come from outside the origins of the team. That said, having him cameo in Fantastic Four could work depending on how they plan to interpret that team for the MCU. Personally I'm hoping for a "lost in space/time from the 60's" storyline that will let them be "old" in this universe.

 AduroT wrote:
From just this past week’s United States of Captain America.

Spoiler:

Speaking as a Cap fan, that snippet works decently because it's an attitudinal thing for Cap. He has a phone, knows how to use it, but just prefers paper. Hell, so do I sometimes and I'm not from the 1940s...paper is still a useful tool.

Where Cap takes go wrong is when they show him having difficulties with the daily details of the modern world around him. Which doesn't make sense to me...he's been thawed out for years, working with a super-advanced spy agency at times, and constantly surrounded by all kinds of crazy comic book tech. He'd adapt...and in fact did in the comics for most of his history since Avengers #4.

What Captain America symbolizes is a living, constantly evolving America that remembers the best values of its past. Values are where he has difficulties at times with the modern world. He has crises of faith regarding America in the comics, often reflecting things going on in the real world. But he learns how to work through them and redefine himself. He's a serial monogamist also, and his lady friends have been all kinds -- a lawyer, a reformed villain, etc. -- that reflect where he was in his life at that point in time. He evolves as a person.

And that's why the MCU got Captain America wrong. That was a Steve Rogers who was ultimately unable to move on from his past. I thought they were headed on a pretty good path after Winter Soldier (easily my fave MCU film despite a few nitpicks), but was really disappointed where things landed. He was boiled down to 'Boy Scout out of time', and that's a very lazy read on the character even if it needs to be a shorthand Disney version for the movies.

 gorgon wrote:

And that's why the MCU got Captain America wrong. That was a Steve Rogers who was ultimately unable to move on from his past. I thought they were headed on a pretty good path after Winter Soldier (easily my fave MCU film despite a few nitpicks), but was really disappointed where things landed. He was boiled down to 'Boy Scout out of time', and that's a very lazy read on the character even if it needs to be a shorthand Disney version for the movies.

Part of that was there was simply no time to do anything with the characters in the later movies. It was full-tilt CGI spectacle and make sure each of the 40-odd cast members runs in front of the camera from time to time.
There isn't any room (or even any point) in doing complex character moments in those sorts of films.

Solo (or small cast) films like Winter Soldier are always going to be better for those sorts of moments. It isn't even a quality problem, its just CGI action spectacles don't concern themselves with that level of detail.

I disagree. The team dynamic kind of centred on Cap and Tony’s outlooks.

Tony was the ideas man, the futurist. He saw what could be done.

Cap was the ethics man. He saw what should be done, morally and ethically.

That’s what drove the team, providing both motivation and internal tension. Both remain in those guiding roles, but we see both open up more to the other philosophy.

This is particularly shown in Civil War. The formerly feckless and reckless Tony recognises his history coming back to haunt him. The weapons and technology he created being used without accountability. But for Cap, he’s a man personally familiar with “I was just following orders”. Given his history with Hydra, he fears the team being deployed by an unscrupulous government.

I definitely don't agree with that. Cap threw morality and ethics out the window in civil war (and honestly in Winter Soldier and a little bit in First Avenger), all he cared about was doing anything at all to save his buddy, who had absolute immunity to any consequence because he was Cap's buddy.

The tension of the film was that they were opposed because they couldn't agree, but the moral debate they were theoretically having was a muddled mess because what they were doing was completely add odds with what the script had them recite in the pre-spectacle fight build up.

Tony... I don't even know what he was supposed to be doing in this film. Any futurism or ideas were gone, he was just suddenly an angry lapdog and yes man and recruiting children to fight because... Uh, Sony said it was fine?