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Agamemnon2 wrote:I think the new tyranids are going to absolutely rape my Guard. Sure, I'll kill a bunch of Warriors and gaunts, but I'll only get one shooting phase. And that Toxic Blood biomorph is just adding insult to injury (as well as hurting ogryns like mad). To say nothing of Genestealers being able to effortlessly deny me any hope of killing even one of them before being shredded to ribbons.

Sure, the Trygon not being able to charge out of his tunnel is good, but my Guard doesn't have anything that can reliably inflict six wounds against T6/3+ in one shooting phase. That's the equivalent of 15 lascannons, after all. And when the Trygon reaches combat, it's all over. The best thing I could hope for is that the target unit fails its Ld check after sustaining massive casualties from the bioelectric field.

Really, this entire army is a giant "Screw you!" aimed at anything without serious durability (i.e. marines). What he hell am I supposed to do? The Guard has nothing useful against Tyranids now. Nothing.

Remember these are just rumours, even if they are quite accurate (notice the "quite"). We have yet to see the weakness of 'nid armies since we are all focussing on the perks. Trust me, there WILL be one.

[Recanted.]

All I'm saying is that in every 5th edition designed codex there is an inherent weakness to that army.

Orks can't crack all round AV14 (not exactly 5th ed but designed with it in mind). Marines are decent all rounders but you pay the points for them so there are less bodies on the field. IG die to a stiff breeze and the most competitive vehicle they have (vendetta) is AV 12.

My bet is that since synapse no longer provides immunity to ID that will be our biggest weakness...vulnerability to high S weapons. And don't even get me started on force weapons!

how will us bugs handle mech though? I still see it as, endure small amount of fire, break open transports, then get shot to death next turn because we're not in CC. My opponents are almost strictly, mech tau, mech chaos marines, and mech guard. Will we have the ability to open enough (between a third and a half) of the transports to make killing infantry even possible or will it remain as current.

Turn 1-2: Advance, shoot transports, accomplish little.
Turn 1-2: take some light fire from many different weapons.
Turn 3: shoot at or assault some vehicles
Turn 3: the units just freshly broken out of vehicles are not in CC and rapidfire all the assault units to death.
Turn 4: Shoot some more transports, make a meager CC attempt with remaining units.
Turn 4: Have the freed units mop up the remaining assault units.
Turn 5: Park my MCs in cover so I have something on the board still.
Turn 5: They sit on an objective and I endure light fire.
??????
Draw or Loss

Playing against my friend's guard I see on average 6 transports, 3 other vehicles. Fighting CSM I see 4 rhinos and maybe some stuff in heavy, tau I see 3 fish and 1-2 heavies. Will we be able to open transports while advancing or is that still the end of a tyranid game, seeing 6 or more vehicles and just calling it quits in advance. Because at the moment the VC is worthless and vomits out "can't shoot" results uncontrollably like the fex had just drank a gallon of spoiled milk. Our best CC is genies for opening tanks and they do it well, but their small numbers make them very vulnerable to return rapidfire. The flying devil-tyrant does well also, but is a single unit with no wound soaks and dies to amassed fire. If we get access to a way to damage transports while advancing, I will be very happy. As it stands I run an entirely outflank/deepstrike army because rending and CC are our reliable vehicle killers, but if they turtle in the middle I get hosed.

[Recanted.]

I guess you missed the part where you get BS4 T6 Sv3+ models with S8 Assault 2 guns that don't need LOS.

[Recanted.]

S8 is beautiful for transports and most fast vehicles, and that's really all we need serious help with. The Demolishers and Land Raiders of the world will just have to be dealt with up close and personal.

lord_blackfang wrote:I guess you missed the part where you get BS4 T6 Sv3+ models with S8 Assault 2 guns that don't need LOS.

That does seem a bit hard to overlook.

I'm hoping that there is a balancing factor in there somewhere (Points cost?), but, knowing GW... who knows?

If guards can be taken as an elite choice then im saying goodbye to my once loved warriors.
I think a unit of thropes (simply for lance) and 2 of the guard will give some nice damage.


Also, people say weakness right?
Well, there is 1 match-up thats been overlooked.

New nidzilla Vs pure GK's.

All that ID means gak for the nids.

Alpharius wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:I guess you missed the part where you get BS4 T6 Sv3+ models with S8 Assault 2 guns that don't need LOS.

That does seem a bit hard to overlook.

I'm hoping that there is a balancing factor in there somewhere (Points cost?), but, knowing GW... who knows?

Maybe, maybe not. Remember that is just a crack missle with a 8% of blowing up a Rhino. So it will only be good if Nids can spam them on the cheap. For example, space wolves who can get 5 ML for 140 pts. Based on the rumors, for 150 points, it seams you get 6 ML shots, so looks like a pretty good deal. Still before MEC players wine to much, even at 6 ML shots we are still only talking less than a 50% chance of blowing up a Rhino (less if we are talking about IG chimeras). Not to mention the trade value...I just used 180 points to take out a 35 pt vehicle (still a hell of alot better than LOSING a 200 point genestealer squad to take out a 35 point rhino).

Venom Cannons traded increased vehicle damage ability for decreased ROF and therefore decreased accuracy so no big pickups there.

Zoes main weaknesses were completely overlooked and therefore still are not a good anti-tank unit. An 18" lance that can't or won't get the chance to hit is still a 18" lance that can't or won't hit.

The best tank hunting weapon looks to be the Tyranofex with its 2 Strength 10 48" range shots, however, we don't know the BS on this guy or the point costs. My first impression is that given 170 point ninja fexes, this guy is going to be very expensive and over priced for a model that only has a 27% chance of taking out a rhino (assuming BS 4).

Agamemnon2 wrote:I'm at a loss imagining any kind of weakness severe enough to make the matchup in any way tolerable.

The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

Oh wait, this is Dakka.

I seem to remember the same being said of the Ork codex, the Marine codex, Daemons, Space Wolves, and Imperial Guard. And so it goes. The circle of life on Dakka continues. The only one I didn't hear this about was Dark Angels.

I think what we're going to see is that when all the points values are out there, Nid players will have to make some decisions about what to include, because its obvious they won't be able to take a lot of everything.

Like every other codex that is 'so over the top' when its in it's rumor phase, once it hits the streets, and people play against it, and shift their tactics away from what worked before to cope, all will be right with the world.

Agamemnon2 wrote:I'm at a loss imagining any kind of weakness severe enough to make the matchup in any way tolerable.

Except the mass amounts of AP 1/2/3 weapons you can field?

Woo-hoo the trygon burrows up and kills a unit or two and is then blown away for being in the midst of your army. Let's not forget the BID! order.

Gandair wrote:how will us bugs handle mech though? I still see it as, endure small amount of fire, break open transports, then get shot to death next turn because we're not in CC. My opponents are almost strictly, mech tau, mech chaos marines, and mech guard. Will we have the ability to open enough (between a third and a half) of the transports to make killing infantry even possible or will it remain as current.

Thanks for bringing us back to reality mate . Seams like there are certainly a few options in the Tyranofex and Hive Guard, but a nids ability to bring them in significant numbers will be the telling part.

[Recanted.]

3 Vendettas could take out a Trygon in a turn fairly reliably. 3 melta Vet units and their Chimeras can do it, too. Yeah, you'll have to focus fire like mad to prevent it from eating something important when it gets to charge, but we're not exactly talking about an unstoppable force. Now, if you have 2 of them crop up in your lines, you might be in bad shape...

Except any "good" units the Trygon is assaulting should be in a transport (all those nice vets). So yes, you will still drop one (if there is only one) with little difficulty.

On a more important note, anyone have any ideas on how to convert units like the Tervigon out of the Tyrant/Carni sprues like GW is apparently advocating?

Budzerker wrote:On a more important note, anyone have any ideas on how to convert units like the Tervigon out of the Tyrant/Carni sprues like GW is apparently advocating?

Difficult to say until we see a pic, but i'm sure there will be many a thread on that soon!

[Recanted.]

Hilarious how the mathhammer crowd is all of a sudden howling about how they're screwed because they can't effortlessly smash enemy high-armor vehicles. I have cracked open Land Raiders with my Orks, and I've had Orks swept aside by IG because they went tank-spam on me. I want to play Tyranids because the great number of weird and wonderful bugs sound cool. Go get an ulcer about some serious problem out in the real world.

Every recent Codex has been overblown by Internet discussions, and I think the Tyranids are the same way. I have no doubt that they will change the game significantly, but I also have no doubt that they won't be as bad as people are saying. I personally don't find these rumors that impressive, but we won't know until we get accurate costs anyway. I know that I'm not particularly afraid of the Tyranids, since I think I'll be able to take them-- and if not, a few changes to my list and my tactics will undoubtedly carry me through the storm. It's important to keep a level head about these things.

Fetterkey wrote:Every recent Codex has been overblown by Internet discussions, and I think the Tyranids are the same way. I have no doubt that they will change the game significantly, but I also have no doubt that they won't be as bad as people are saying. I personally don't find these rumors that impressive, but we won't know until we get accurate costs anyway. I know that I'm not particularly afraid of the Tyranids, since I think I'll be able to take them-- and if not, a few changes to my list and my tactics will undoubtedly carry me through the storm. It's important to keep a level head about these things.

Someone is talking common sense, what are you doing here?

Trygons should not be too tough to take down. Each of my infantry blobs is 20 troops with 2 PGs and 2 ACs. 2 of these blobs of 20 should kill a trygon if I get a bring it down off. 320p killing a 150 or so point MC in one turn isn't bad.

[Recanted.]

On a more important note, anyone have any ideas on how to convert units like the Tervigon out of the Tyrant/Carni sprues like GW is apparently advocating?

I got a better idea

I just got an Exocrine and Malefactor made by Armorcast from Ebay Exocreine equals Tyrofex and Malefactor equals Tervigon And all very fluffy might I add, if fluff be known

Quick, there are some on Ebay right now

ph34r wrote:Trygons should not be too tough to take down. Each of my infantry blobs is 20 troops with 2 PGs and 2 ACs. 2 of these blobs of 20 should kill a trygon if I get a bring it down off. 320p killing a 150 or so point MC in one turn isn't bad.

Trygons apparently cost 200+, so they're even worse than it would appear.

Well, it seems like you can upgrade a Trygon to Alpha and give it the psychic pwoer that makes all enemies within 12" WS 1 BS 1. That should help it say alive.

I still see lots of knee jerking.

I'm with the lot that will say they'll shelve Lictors if they can't assault when they arrive, although it depends on points. They did gain an additional wound and we still don't know if they get the improved cover save or not. It's actually amazing how much fire a lictor with 2+ cover save can get (mass flamers hurt it but very few units can lay 2+ flamers a turn). If it's in the neighborhood of 40pts it might not be so bad, better than the 80 we pay currently and +1 to reserve rolls if you choose to use it would be nice for ensuring your reserves come in when you want to (we don't know if it has to be on board or not, i'd guess not as the IG dude that mods reserve roll doesn't need to be).

As well, the Trygon might be the same cost as 1 of MY crusherfexes but in a typical list you can field a max of 3 Trygons, but can field 9 crusherfexes. Of course at games under 2k that would be impossible as 9 crusher fexes would amount to around 1800 points leaving just enough for MAYBE a warrior alpha and then remaining points split between gaunts (lets assume 20 gaunts).

In KP games that list will own.

I could see there being very good reasons to take Carnifexes. I'm guessing the 3 gun MC in Heavy will be close to double the base of a carnifex, the heavy VC isn't THAT awful at popping tanks and the Trygon and Mawloc sure as hell don't threaten tanks outside of melee.

Hmm, I'm having visions in my head of 6 Trygons/Mawlocs as defender in Planetstrike

For those who spammed carni's back in 4th because the cool kids did it (cool used loosely as 40k gamers are NOT cool by even our standards) use them in Apoc or Planetstrike if you play such supplements. If you can't than trade them, sell them or shelve them.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:Every recent Codex has been overblown by Internet discussions, and I think the Tyranids are the same way. I have no doubt that they will change the game significantly, but I also have no doubt that they won't be as bad as people are saying. I personally don't find these rumors that impressive, but we won't know until we get accurate costs anyway. I know that I'm not particularly afraid of the Tyranids, since I think I'll be able to take them-- and if not, a few changes to my list and my tactics will undoubtedly carry me through the storm. It's important to keep a level head about these things.

Someone is talking common sense, what are you doing here?

Someone should go tell this to Warseer, their groupthink is convinced this codex is the suckiest piece of suck outside Sucktown, Alabama.

I tried, but my post was deleted. Cowards. YOU HEAR THAT, WHINESEER!!! COWARDS!!!

lord_blackfang wrote:Well, it seems like you can upgrade a Trygon to Alpha and give it the psychic pwoer that makes all enemies within 12" WS 1 BS 1. That should help it say alive.

I've only seen they get "Shadow in the Warp" making Force weapons very unlikely to insta-gib it and just generally annoying psykers within 12" of it.

I'll make mine an Alpha only for the increase in shots and the fearless bubble.