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Turn 1-2: Advance, shoot transports, accomplish little.
Turn 1-2: take some light fire from many different weapons.
Turn 3: shoot at or assault some vehicles
Turn 3: the units just freshly broken out of vehicles are not in CC and rapidfire all the assault units to death.
Turn 4: Shoot some more transports, make a meager CC attempt with remaining units.
Turn 4: Have the freed units mop up the remaining assault units.
Turn 5: Park my MCs in cover so I have something on the board still.
Turn 5: They sit on an objective and I endure light fire.
??????
Draw or Loss


We now have very cheap Hormagaunts and a broodlord at 50 pts. to deny attacks...
A creature that can spawn anywhere and kill stuff,things can come from there tunnels
from the sounds og things we got a lot that if used together in a swarm can take down tanks with the shooty weapons they gave us. I cant wait for the new dex.

An Inquisitor with Mystics seems like he would block many of these tricks.

the toxathrope needs to not be so tippy. I mean I haven't seen the model physically but if it's metal you know that there is going to be a lot injection chunks on it and refining to be done given citadels history of model making.

At work so don't have time to go through the whole thread.

Has anybody posted the scans of the Ravener and Trygon assmbley guides yet?

Fateweaver wrote:I still see lots of knee jerking.

Exactly.

We've got the crowd... well... just Aggy... saying that the book will destroy anything and everything, and then another crowd saying it sucks.

I thought we were over this nonsense?

This thread is holding it together A LOT better than warseers dual threads.

There of course are reactionaries in all dark corners of the internet. And this thread is no exception. They always get quiet and slink away when their doom and gloom prophecies fall flat.

What's really sad about the warseer thread is that they've got so many people complaining about some units being too good and some being too bad, but people are interchanging the 'useless' and 'overpowered' units. They don't know good from bad...

Perhaps my early take might soothe some bug players that have reverted to instinctive behavior.

The one truth is that this book has been re-invented. The old ways of shooting first and charging if an opportunity presents itself are gone. Start swallowing that pill if you played nidzilla. Drop pods really just flipped the functionailty of the carnifex. And since nid players aren't used to the force multiplier that is 'protected' deep strike, then a lot of people are looking at ranges of shots and strengths of guns without the whole picture.

HIVE TYRANT- until we see base cost and upgrade cost there isn't anything to talk about here. 18" synapse, nasty shadow of the warp, possible wings, possible drop pod, other psychic powers that we've only seen poorly translated explanations... Certainly some potential here.

TERVIGON- This one is getting a lot of "too good" calls.. If the termie spawning ability has been costed into the model, and you roll an early double, then the thing is overcosted. If its death ability just devastates the majority of your troops when it triggers, then he isn't going to be a stable tourney unit. He sure does sound like a lot of fun.

HORROR- Really no tangible info on this thing. Is it a gargoyle upgrade? is it an IC? points cost? abilities? statline?

HIVE GUARD - How can people be complaining about nid anti-transport? This unit that is rumored to be able to pod into play, can take side shots on arrival from out of LOS and has an excellent survivability and excellent ballistic skill. This seems like more than adequate support for a primarily assault based force. Demon players would KILL for this unit.

ZOANTHROPE - ASsault armies don't even need built in ranged land raider kill to function. Just access to consistent trasport/fast gunship kill. But we are getting it anyway. And it can be podded in for alpha strike capability. I think the paradigm is shifting extremely. You don't want to be far away, nids are going to flood special weapon carrying armies with target saturation. Get everything you have in their face...

PYROVORE - not enough info on this thing. But it should be noted that there seems to be an MC of some variety in every slot.

YMGARL GENESTEALERS - Don't these guys sound good? But not overpowerd? I think so. How cool...

LICTOR - A great many people want the arrival turn charge, but if a trade is necessary (and it is) then I take this new type of deployment over arrival assault in a heartbeat. When tied to area terrain as deployment, canny players would just fill every inch of area terrain near their deployment with models for an automatic deep strike mishap. Even if you managed to find a spot and land it, you were rewarded with a dangerous terrain check that could cost you half of your wounds.... If he keeps super-stealth, then being able to drop im, accident free behind a screened cover save, take some 2+ saves, then charge on the next turn sounds about right. And if you can take 3 in a brood then thats plenty of offensive capability for the slot.

GENESTEALERS - No one seems to distraught by their free infiltrate and price decrease.

HORMAGAUNTS - yet another solid troops choice that I can't believe anyone would discount. Their interaction with hive tyrant powers, synapse, and their dirt cheapness, with access to a particularly devastating cc upgrade make them a very attractive option. I guess some nid players will understand fully when a 20 man hormagaunt unit with toxin sacs charges their freshly arrived trygon.

TERMAGAUNTS - seems like a pretty lateral shift. one point cost decrease but a 6" range increase and a potential loss of living ammo don't give me any heart palpatations, either for or against.

RIPPERS - admittedly nerfed... I always thought that all swarms should have immune to instant death. It doesn't follow logic that a single high strength shot would kill them all, and in game design, the swarm is most likely to be a candidate for frustrating tarpit. Oh well.

WARRIORS - There is a pretty spirited back and forth about the playability of the warriors. The side stating that loss of ID makes them very fragile is correct, but the side saying wait and see has a lot of things going for it. First off, warriors are troops now, not competing with killer elite units (the dakkafex). If all they did was survive, now they have something to show for that. It is troop based synpase. That is quite important as well. Lastly, there are multiple VERY important units in the nid army that are T4 IDable... raveners, warriors, zoanthropes, possible hive guard... You know what else strength 8 is good at? Wounding T6. So what you have here with this army is an absolute overload on targets that need to be killed with high strength weaponry. Sneak in some genestealers and hormagaunts to test the remaining anti-infatry dice, and you have the possiblity of a very overloaded gunline.

GARGOYLES - I'm hearing a lot of "too good's" about these guys too which is just silly. Better than before, fieldable, but, much like the storm boy... waaaay too much hype about their ability to be multi-purpose and survivable.

FLYING RIPPERS - A not good unit with wings... which is too bad.

SPORE MINES - Ok, the naked spore mines seem to be such an overlooked options, with massive potential. Deploying spore mines after deployment zones are chsoen but before deployment allows you to block off entire areas for models to set up. Sure they can shoot you once the game starts, but until the game starts I'm certain that they can't place any models on top of your mines. So 14 tank IG armies are going to have a really hard time finding good spots to set up their choo choo trains with tiny annoying models just sitting right where they want to be. And lootas are going to be really frustrated when the one or two place where they can deploy in cover are already occupied.

FLYING WARRIORS? - see warriors

HARPY - If the rumored statline is true, this model looks to be the ticket for guys who want to spam MCs,, but doesn't really blow me away in terms of cut throat competitiveness, we'll see of course. It does look playable for sure, and could possibly be great with the right support surrounding it. That sounds like a well designed unit... right?

RAVENERS - Look, if you look at what this unit has going for it on paper and then look at its one big weakness, it becomes a very volitile unit. First off, deep strike, every model armed with flamer, beast, re-rollable attacks, 3 wounds, enter through trygon tunnel... that list alone shold drop some jaws. I think the way this unit doesn't end up costing 60 points per model is that it has a vulnerability to instant death. That helps balance it and bring it into line. When you choose this unit you get a combination of some of the most devastating abilities in 40k (flamers, beasts, unrestricted re-rolls). But you'll probably want to support it with other things that don't want to get shot by strength 8. Makes some list design decisions more difficult. Sounds like good game design.

TRYGON - This guy seems good, very promising. Expensive, but enough wounds to justify it likely, a possible synergistic combo in the right army. But low strength. Balanced at first glance. Definitely the "look at me" unit in the book. Many will commit too much to their army being based on this guy.

TYRANOFEX - This guy looks like last years model. Fexes don't look like they are priced to walk slowly across the table and shoot a couple guns. At rumored 250, this would be a great planetstrike defender, and might possibly find its way into a shooty minded nid list, but I don't think this is what fexes are for.

BIOVORE - I'm not impressed, strength 4 ap 4? I guess its ok, I would hope that they would be indirect to cause pinning and to avoid screen cover, and they might be (can't see in the sheet). I think its a fine unit, but in a competitve slot.

MAWLOC - see trygon, but cheaper and with less capabilities. Also very competitive, but lacking in the strength department.

CARNIFEX - Ah yes, the other "unplayable" unit. 200 points gets you a monstrous creature in a drop pod, that has 5 re-rollable strength 9 (or strength 10 for a few points more) attacks. Look, I know you can get a trygon with deep strike for 200. But that deep strike does not come with mishap protection that the spore pod probably will, and most importantly, the trygon is looking at strength 6+2d6 to get inside that land raider. The amount of vehicle flipping that a fex can do is very intense. And there are some rumors of bio-plasma becoming a plasma cannon, the fex also has access to crushing claws. It is waaaay too early to call DOA on the fex. You have got to respect that strength 9/10, and his unique access to biomorphs that the trygon doesn't get, most importantly, the ability to purchase a drop pod.



I'm sure I forgot some units. Basically, as a nid player getting ramped up for this new book. It looks like it is CRAZY different. A lot of veteran players seem to be dreading the inevitable changing of the guard. If it wasn't for new codexes to shake up your army, how bored would you get playing with the same models day in and day out? I am excited as hell to get my hands on a codex and really start figuring out what is what with this new book. It does NOT look weak, from my perspective as a successful mech guard player. It also doesn't look unbeatable. More than anything I love the fact that there is a variety of enticing units and I expect very little 'spam' coming from this book, both in peoples basements and at the tables of a tourney.

I wonder why crushing claws required the I nerf. If they simple add D3 attacks rather than replace the 4 base attacks with d6 like the old ones would have, it would be a better buy immediately. But if a carnifex is already I1 still, then why should it even have a I nerf unless there is some sort of I boost the fex can get somehow.

To quote H it sure doesn't look to have been Jervisified. That is the baffling thing. Since the start of 5th people have complained about armies getting more streamlined and less options, aka games have gotten faster to play. When the IG codex came out that introduced some new units and added a plethora of rules. It was praised by some, abhorred by others. SW codex did the same but with even more special rules and wargear. Tyranids looks to be the most complex codex to date and people are complaining about that.

That is the baffling part. "It'll slow gameplay down." If you are pressed for time, like at a game store and you know you have 2-3 hours till store close than don't play a huge points game. A 1500 pt game SHOULD take less than 2 hours to play. My group can crank out 3k in 3 - 3.5 hours (non Apoc).

I'm sure when the book is in my hands, either via illegal download of the store copy and then eventually the real deal upon release I'll get a bigger picture.

It looks to me like Tyranids have basically been not only shaken up but have been ripped asunder and put back together. The biggest complaint I see, especially over on 'Seer, is that you can't sit back beyond 3' and reliably pop tanks and transports. I say good riddance to that theory. I don't see the 'nid bioguns being any less dangerous than they are currently. Some stats may have been reduced but the VC will still kill infantry (actually better than it does now) and the S6 Heavy BS still wounds on 2's just like it did at S8.

I have a fairly balanced 'Nid force right now and for me personally I don't see this slapping my army too hard. Some units I won't buy simply as I have no desire to field them and some I'll buy and field simply because the model appeals to me. The Trygon and Mawloc may not prove to be "must haves" in competitive gaming but for me personally they are too damn hot looking to not field. Hive Guard could be a very nice transport popper. Effective 30" range with their S8 2 shot guns. 6 krak equivalents a turn at BS4 that don't need line of sight and can move and fire. Rumored at 50pts each; T6 with 3 wounds and 3+ save.

Like the players who took 3 elite and 3 heavy fexes. Yeah it sucks that you can't use them but odds are you ran 3 dakkafexes as elite so that is ONE brood of them. Your heavies might suffer if all 3 are different but if that's the case reweaponize them or don't use them. Elites have so many wonderful toys coming up for them.

There aren't many armies that Tyranids won't be able to handle past January. Heavy VC can actually wreck tanks and transports; Zoanthropes can scare tanks and with their 3+ invul can actually exchange shots with most tanks and probably come out on top; drop pods for 'nids; list goes on and on.

We have to stop looking at Tyranids as they play currently and look at how they'll play after January 16th. The army will play nothing like it does now and that is a good thing.

Wher are my strangleweb rules? I have a brood of 32 of the buggers and want my 32 flame templates!!

Or at least confirmation that 'gaunts can't get them in 32 strong blocks....

Oldgrue wrote:Wher are my strangleweb rules? I have a brood of 32 of the buggers and want my 32 flame templates!!

Or at least confirmation that 'gaunts can't get them in 32 strong blocks....

Rumours point to 1 per every 10 Gaunts.

Railguns wrote:I wonder why crushing claws required the I nerf. If they simple add D3 attacks rather than replace the 4 base attacks with d6 like the old ones would have, it would be a better buy immediately. But if a carnifex is already I1 still, then why should it even have a I nerf unless there is some sort of I boost the fex can get somehow.

Keeps it from being a no-brainer.

Standard loadout is 2x Talons. 5 Attacks on the charge at I3 (4 if you buy adrenaline) at S9(10 with adrenal) rerolling ALL misses or 8 attacks on the charge, rerolling just 1's (assuming you keep one set of Talons) but going at I1. Letting you choose to either kill infantry and swing simultaneous to most walkers (who can hurt it) or increasing your killing power against things that can't hit back rendering the I boost pointless. Going with Claws gives carni great flexibility in melee. If you must strike before a fist/thammer/chainfist than don't use the claws and swing at I4; if you are fighting something that can't hit back or that would have a hard time wounding take the extra attacks and go at I1.

Lookin at the rumours, I'm thinking that my army will look like this:

HQ:
Tyrant w. Gaurd. May be podding in.

Elites:
Hive Gaurd. Lots of Hive gaurd look good. They look like they could be highly effective at popping transports and fast vehicles.

Troops:
Warriors.
Genestealers, a unit or two.
Hormagaunts, with toxin sacks. Two or Three big units.
Termagants, a good sized unit to provide warriors with a cover save.

Fast:
Gargoyles. They look like they could be a valuable fast respose unit.
Raveners also deserve a good look.
Spore mines: If they are cheap enough, they could be a valuable disruption unit.

Heavy:
One or two Trygons. These will likely be alphas, unless the upgrade looks to pricey. May use Podding Carnifex's instead.

Good post, Shep. Some thoughts of mine...

Shep wrote:This thread is holding it together A LOT better than warseers dual threads.

Yeah, so much for Dakka being the dour place. I'm scratching my head about a number of things, but there's no question there's good stuff in with the not-so-good.

HIVE TYRANT- until we see base cost and upgrade cost there isn't anything to talk about here. 18" synapse, nasty shadow of the warp, possible wings, possible drop pod, other psychic powers that we've only seen poorly translated explanations... Certainly some potential here.

I think dropping these guys in with pods and the Unspeakable Horror ability will be a solid choice. They're harder to deal with than ever.

HIVE GUARD - How can people be complaining about nid anti-transport? This unit that is rumored to be able to pod into play, can take side shots on arrival from out of LOS and has an excellent survivability and excellent ballistic skill. This seems like more than adequate support for a primarily assault based force. Demon players would KILL for this unit.

These guys look to be the star of the codex, IMO.

HORMAGAUNTS - yet another solid troops choice that I can't believe anyone would discount. Their interaction with hive tyrant powers, synapse, and their dirt cheapness, with access to a particularly devastating cc upgrade make them a very attractive option. I guess some nid players will understand fully when a 20 man hormagaunt unit with toxin sacs charges their freshly arrived trygon.

Spammed poison on these guys makes them really dangerous to anything with T value. C'tan giving you problems? Send in Hormagaunts with toxin sacs...a medium-sized brood ought make it go "poof" without breaking a sweat.

If there's cheap access to poison across the army as rumored, I think that could turn out to be a big deal.

WARRIORS - There is a pretty spirited back and forth about the playability of the warriors. The side stating that loss of ID makes them very fragile is correct, but the side saying wait and see has a lot of things going for it. First off, warriors are troops now, not competing with killer elite units (the dakkafex). If all they did was survive, now they have something to show for that. It is troop based synpase. That is quite important as well. Lastly, there are multiple VERY important units in the nid army that are T4 IDable... raveners, warriors, zoanthropes, possible hive guard... You know what else strength 8 is good at? Wounding T6. So what you have here with this army is an absolute overload on targets that need to be killed with high strength weaponry. Sneak in some genestealers and hormagaunts to test the remaining anti-infatry dice, and you have the possiblity of a very overloaded gunline.

At first I blanched at the extra W instead of extra T. But I got over it. It looks like Deathspitters will be okay (like the current ones better, but hey), and I like the idea of having a unit that can sit on an objective, engage the enemy at range and still have something to say if enemy assaulters try to seize said objective.

GARGOYLES - I'm hearing a lot of "too good's" about these guys too which is just silly. Better than before, fieldable, but, much like the storm boy... waaaay too much hype about their ability to be multi-purpose and survivable.

They're speed for speed's sake and nothing else. They don't really bring any pain, don't have any durability and can't seize objectives. Meh in my book, even at half the price.

Understand that the thinking on Warseer was generally that Gargoyles were *awesome* at 12 pts per, it was just that the price of minis holding them back from being used. Umm...no.

SPORE MINES - Ok, the naked spore mines seem to be such an overlooked options, with massive potential. Deploying spore mines after deployment zones are chsoen but before deployment allows you to block off entire areas for models to set up. Sure they can shoot you once the game starts, but until the game starts I'm certain that they can't place any models on top of your mines. So 14 tank IG armies are going to have a really hard time finding good spots to set up their choo choo trains with tiny annoying models just sitting right where they want to be. And lootas are going to be really frustrated when the one or two place where they can deploy in cover are already occupied.

Yeah, the predeployment deployment is a nice touch.

TYRANOFEX - This guy looks like last years model. Fexes don't look like they are priced to walk slowly across the table and shoot a couple guns. At rumored 250, this would be a great planetstrike defender, and might possibly find its way into a shooty minded nid list, but I don't think this is what fexes are for.

I'm not sold on this guy. Seems like a ton of points for that 1 average hit per turn with the big gun. Yeah, there's not much comparable in the list. But 250 pts? And the rest of the guns don't seem to have any synergy.

BIOVORE - I'm not impressed, strength 4 ap 4? I guess its ok, I would hope that they would be indirect to cause pinning and to avoid screen cover, and they might be (can't see in the sheet). I think its a fine unit, but in a competitve slot.

I initially didn't like them, but have since come around, sorta. They're actually pretty darn good against infantry out in the open. Yeah...I know. But against that, they'd kick some booty.

Unfortunately, perhaps too many units in this codex have been designed to kick the butts of footsloggers in the open. C'est la vie.

CARNIFEX - Ah yes, the other "unplayable" unit. 200 points gets you a monstrous creature in a drop pod, that has 5 re-rollable strength 9 (or strength 10 for a few points more) attacks. Look, I know you can get a trygon with deep strike for 200. But that deep strike does not come with mishap protection that the spore pod probably will, and most importantly, the trygon is looking at strength 6+2d6 to get inside that land raider. The amount of vehicle flipping that a fex can do is very intense. And there are some rumors of bio-plasma becoming a plasma cannon, the fex also has access to crushing claws. It is waaaay too early to call DOA on the fex. You have got to respect that strength 9/10, and his unique access to biomorphs that the trygon doesn't get, most importantly, the ability to purchase a drop pod.

I'll admit I was really scratching my head when S6 was the rumor. I feel a lot better about them at S9.

I'm sure I forgot some units. Basically, as a nid player getting ramped up for this new book. It looks like it is CRAZY different. A lot of veteran players seem to be dreading the inevitable changing of the guard. If it wasn't for new codexes to shake up your army, how bored would you get playing with the same models day in and day out? I am excited as hell to get my hands on a codex and really start figuring out what is what with this new book.

I was on record saying I wanted to see it all blown up. And I sure got it, LOL. I'm not sure I'm 100% in agreement with the new vision. But I'll deal, and I'll make it work. I already have an idea for modeling spore pods that I'll share with everyone once I get it all figured out.

Yeah the warseer threads are sad. Too many people missing the forest for the trees, both unit and army wise.

Tervigon is a perfect example. The spawn ability is not the main reason to take em, yet that is all people are on about. Yes you'll be lucky to get more then one spawn off. So wait till late game or imminent death to use it. I look at the ability to grant feel no pain to unit of choice and counter attack to all terms in6" as much more important. The spawning is just a nice backup option for objective missions. The death drawback is the only thing holding me back from calling them competitive

Normally dakka makes me feel emo, right now that honor is reserved for 'Seer. Thank the Lord "The Dude" has all latest rumorage on page 1 of the 'nid rumor mark iv thread so that I can just take quick peeks without further subjugation to that whine hole.

Right now the only thing I want to see are points. Just knowing what I do of the rules is enough for me.

i know this is kind disrupting the conversation at hand, but how is everyone feeling about the carnifex? i really love them, and have yet to get one, is the T5 really going to make them uncompetitive?

A single Leman Russ Demolisher or Space Marine Vindicator could take out an entire brood of Carnifexes in one shot. (I hate the term brood being applied to a group of Carnifexes. Making units of Carnifexes cheapens the concept). Any S10 stuff, really, will love you if you take plenty of T5 carnifexes.

Guys,

I only see one poster who said that this (rumored) codex was over powered and no posters who have said this (rumored) codex is crap.

I have seen a few posters wisely and reasonably bring up points about addressing the need to deal with transports and wondering how the (rumored) codex will pan out in this regard, probably because thier opponents use alot of Mech...go figure.

As I have already said, the Hive Guard seam to fill this niche out (if the rumors are true). Sound but not over powering. Don't know as I agree with the DS philosophy, as if they end up being your best chance of taking down mech (with tyranofexes being 250 points this seams likely) and given their survivability, I don't know why you would want to chance them coming in late in the game. Just my opinion of course, but I personally want to shut down mobility as early in the game as possible and a 30" threat (move 6" and shoot 24") range is pretty adequate for the job.

So let's stop getting carried away here and striking out at anyone with a defended opinion just because SEER went overboard. If someone posts an opinion you don't agree with then explain why you don't agree with it (like Shep did) rather than whining about whiners.

In regards to Biovores, I thought they were barrage. That in itself will likely negate alot of situations that grant cover. Nevertheless, big pie plates means lots of hits, more wounds, and more failed saves...something that nid players should be familiar with. Might not be as powerful as 3rd ed (being poisoned and all). But it is a good start.

Now what I am really waiting on is news of deathspitters. Got too many double deathspitter warriors that I converted whom are sweating on the sidelines.

Railguns wrote:A single Leman Russ Demolisher or Space Marine Vindicator could take out an entire brood of Carnifexes in one shot. (I hate the term brood being applied to a group of Carnifexes. Making units of Carnifexes cheapens the concept). Any S10 stuff, really, will love you if you take plenty of T5 carnifexes.

well, that doesn't really answer my question...

most of the rumors i've seen say t6. one guy on warseer posted t5 and the wailing posters keep repeating it like it's gospel despite most every other rumor leaker saying t6.

Shep wrote: CARNIFEX - Ah yes, the other "unplayable" unit. 200 points gets you a monstrous creature in a drop pod, that has 5 re-rollable strength 9 (or strength 10 for a few points more) attacks. Look, I know you can get a trygon with deep strike for 200. But that deep strike does not come with mishap protection that the spore pod probably will, and most importantly, the trygon is looking at strength 6+2d6 to get inside that land raider. The amount of vehicle flipping that a fex can do is very intense. And there are some rumors of bio-plasma becoming a plasma cannon, the fex also has access to crushing claws. It is waaaay too early to call DOA on the fex. You have got to respect that strength 9/10, and his unique access to biomorphs that the trygon doesn't get, most importantly, the ability to purchase a drop pod.

Good points but don't forget that that is alot of str 6 + 2d6 attacks going against that LR, kinda like the Flyrant that back in 4th was commonly used to hunt LR. Not as good as a carnie, but I am guessing it could get the job done.

Right now, we don't know what all biomorphs are included in that hefty 170 pt price tag other than it is a ninja fex with effectively preferred enemy; so as you said, too early to call on this unit.

H.B.M.C. wrote:We've got the crowd... well... just Aggy... saying that the book will destroy anything and everything, and then another crowd saying it sucks.

I thought we were over this nonsense?

Which I'm happy to recant here, now, and immediately.

By all means.

Done. Now kindly stop bullying me, you horrible little man. I was wrong, I admit it freely.

The pole.

Remove it.

Sorry, I don't know any Poles. The closest I have are a Lithuanian, two Danes and a fellow backpacking somewhere in Croatia.

I'm a Slovenian, if that helps. But I do not wish to be removed.

I'm curious about the rumors that each Termagaunt brood lets you take a Tervigon as a Troops choice. So 3 broods plus 3 MCs spitting out 3 more broods on the first turn, plus the possibility of spewing out some extra ones in the followup turns. Certainly makes objective holding into a far more interesting little dance. Even if they all sputter after the first birth, that's still 9 Troops units on the table.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Fateweaver wrote:I still see lots of knee jerking.

Exactly.

We've got the crowd... well... just Aggy... saying that the book will destroy anything and everything, and then another crowd saying it sucks.

I thought we were over this nonsense?

This happens around every codex and it still surprises you that gakkers and naggers are bemoaning a product yet to be released?

Nobody here is surprised at all, so that comment makes precious little sense.