Dark Eldar Rules Discussion

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**Dracos**

Speaking of which, I've been trying to figure out which wych weapon to go with. Anyone done some mathammer that might shed some light on how the various weapons affect combat VS TEQ, MEQ and GEQ?

**kenshin620**

Kirasu wrote:Its not as clunky as the original book at all..

One wych gets +d6 attacks, re-rolls hits and wounds or models in BTB lose 1 attack.. Thats pretty easy

As oppose to having to determine who was half strength, half WS, -1 attack.. etc. Only the -1 attack will slow down the game at all

If you believe it would be fair if the entire unit got +D6 attacks or rerolls hits and wounds.. well, Im glad its not that way

You find a suped out scoring unit a bad idea?

Come on now, its finally time to murder hundreds of SM armies!

**puma713**

Some more fine details from HERO's Gaming Blog here http://lkhero.blogspot.com/:

HERO wrote:Out of all the FA choices, I'm only sold on Scourge. They are Jump Troops and have ridiculous options for weapons. At 22ppm, for every 5 models, 2 of them can replace their Shard Carbines with special weapons. That means in a squad of 10, they can have 5 special weapons ranging from Splinter Cannons (yes, Cannons), Haywire Blasters, Heatlances, Blasters and Dark Lances. Imagine a full squad of 10 running around with 4x Haywire Blasters or Heatlances messing around with vehicles. Now imagine 10 with 4x Splinter Cannons pouring out a ridiculous amount of poison shots per squad. Start the game with an attached Haemonculus with a Hexfire Rifle just so the squad can get FNP (along their 4+ save) and then run off to do his own thing. With enough targets to saturate the field, these guys might actually get some field time.

Hellions are also pretty good at 16ppm. They have 2 shots each with poisoned shots and can cover really good range. I see these guys as the anti-infantry jump infantry and their special ability to hook combat ICs out of units can really offset how certain close combats play out. The one thing that I look at and can't see much play from is the 22ppm Reaper Jetbikes. First, they're T4 with a 5+ armor save. Sure, they can boost across the map with a 36" Turboboost and still inflict some damage, but I find them to be one of those really fragile units that's big play or big loss. The damage that they can inflict on enemy vehicles' side armor is pretty decent with S6 hits, but you have to pay for those (+20 each) on top of the 22ppm on a T4 5+ model. I like how they look, my god do they look fantastic, but I can't see these guys being any more than a nuisance.

I also examined the HQ choices again and I would like to add one more person to the list I find to be cost effective. Lady Malys is actually quite fantastic for her points. For 130, she makes her and whatever squad she's in immune to psychic abilities. She has Archon stats (7s across the board except for S/T) and has 5 attacks with a modified Djin's Blade. That can give her a possible 8 attacks on the charge! If the blade rebels, no worries, it automatically misses her because she saw it coming. On top of this, she also has a 4++ true invulnerable save, nothing like Shadow Field or anything like that. Her one big ability that effects how the game is played is Precognist. This allows her to reposition +D3 units after deployment, including putting them back in reserve. All this for 130 points is a bargain I would say.

After looking at the Venom vs. Raider argument again, I took another long hard look at the two and came up with the following: Venoms aren't too bad. They're 55 points, so 5 less than a Raider but comes with some serious anti-infantry weaponry. They also come with Flickerfields so that's a free 5++ invulnerable. I would say these things are great anti-infantry paper-thin Razorbacks. They can replace their TL Splinter Rifles with another Splinter Cannon for 10 points so they can have 2. That's a total of 12 poisoned shots coming out from 36" while moving 6" because of Fast. For 65 points, you have a wound generator that can remain at max range and apply pressure to any infantry that gets blown out of their transports. Throw some cheap Wyches or Warriors in them and they act as pretty solid scoring transports that can put down a decent amount of hurt. I think when put into that perspective, their usefulness just increased by a lot.

In terms of Warriors, I think the idea configuration for them will be a Blaster and a Dark Lance. The Champion should probably take a Agnoizer for +20 or Power Weapon for +10 and call it a day. As for Wyches, I think the best loadout for them will be 2x Hydra Gauntlets, Champ with Phantasm Launcher and Agonizer. After thinking really hard about which one will generate more wounds; the Hydra Gauntlets or the Razorflails and I think the Hydra Gauntlets will probably offer more. The good thing about Wyches or Bloodbrides or is that you can put them in a Raider with Aethersails and just run them towards the enemy ASAP. Once they're locked in combat, their 4++ invulnerable will increase their chances to live by a lot and if you manage to give them FNP with some Pain Tokens then it's all good.

I also took a brief look at the Truebloods and Incubii again just to see what I thought about them were true. For Truebloods, yes. They are amazing even though you have to pay for Plasma Grenades (+1 point each) for them; increasing their point cost from 12 to 13. I figured since you're willing to go that far, you'll probably be better off just upgrading to a Champ and taking Phantasm Launchers for both offensive and defensive grenades for the entire squad. The special weapon choices for them is what really does it for me: +5 points per Shredder, +15 for a Blaster, +10 for Splinter Cannon and +25 for Dark Lance is solid. A full squad of these guys shooting from a Raider will put the most ridiculous kind of hurt on anything in the game. The best part is that you can customize for all kinds of engagements; 4x Blasters and 2x Dark Lances for example, will be my ideal loadout if I wanted to destroy armor.

As for Incubii, I think they're trash. They're 22ppm and they're the premiere anti-infantry close combat specialists in the entire army and they DO NOT have an option for Plasma Grenades. What?! Yes, its true and it upsets me to the fullest. How do you make these guys so utterly badass in melee, give them I5 stats and not give them offensive grenades against MEQ camping in cover? They do have something that's good though.. they can take a dedicated transport whereas Harlequins cannot. In terms of field maneuverability though, Harlequins still have these guys beat hands down. I'll probably be taking a full squad with both Shadowseer and Troupe Master just so I can maximize the amount of damage I can inflict on any stragglers left outside their transports. For Incubii, aside from taking a Raider with Aethersails and delivering them, the only other method of delivering them is by a Webway Portal. I'm still not convinced that's the best way to deliver them as I would rather shoot the hell out of my targets first and then run much cheaper Wyches at them after.

For CC options, I almost feel that DE have too many options. I'm not sure what's wrong with me but I don't find Mandrakes any decent. They cost 15ppm, give them a Pain Token and each of them can get 18" S4 AP4 Assault 2 Pinning shots. That's not too bad because they have Stealth and Infiltrate so they can sneak into the enemy's back lines, but they're still 15ppm. I find that you can get better results with cheaper and more effective Wyches with all their gory goodness.

Another unit that's part of this CC train is the Wrack. They're really cheap at 10ppm and come with 2x poison blades and FNP since they start with one Pain Token. If you've got some Haemonculii in your army, you can take a bunch of these guys and give them Furious Charge with your additional Pain Token. Now you have FNP/FC units charging you with poisoned attacks. Not bad if you're going with Haemonculii in your army and you don't like the fragile nature of Wyches.

So in summary, what do I think about Dark Eldar? I think they're really cool, really fast and really nasty. I also think they're going to be the hardest race to play in 40K. They need expert precision to deliver results and any misplays will result in a loss. The entire army has AV10/11 with nothing going above that except for Vect's flagship. Everything has to work in perfect unison and execution of play must be perfect. This is exactly what I'm looking for an Elven army in space. Below, I will formulate another unit bucket but in greater detail and showcasing exactly what weapon configurations I would take in "my" DE army:

Archon
Shadow Field, Agonizer, Combat Drugs - My regular go-to guy, 115 points
Shadow Field, Husk Blade, Combat Drugs, Soul Trap - more MC/IC killer, 140.

Lelith Hesperax
WS9 vs. WS4 troops can give her 10 attacks at I9 S3 for 175 points
3++ in close combat and 4++ outside means she wants to be in combat and taking heads.

Duke Sliscus the Serpent
Imo, the best HQ buy in the book. For 150 points, he makes Raiders, Venoms and Ravagers DS.
Comes with a Shadow Field and Blast Pistol, wounds on 2+ in CC and 5+ ignores armor saves.
Gives one squad better poison so their rifles wound on 3+ instead of 4+.
Gives the entire army better combat drugs, roll 2 dice and pick whichever you want when rolling drugs.

Lady Malys
For 130 points, she's basically an Archon with a better Djinn Blade and a 4++ invulnerable.
Can redeploy D3 of your units after deployment and is completely immune to psychic attacks.

Asdrubal Vect
Pay 240 points to seize initiative on a 4+.
Shadow Field and a power weapon that always wound on 3+.
Preferred enemy vs. all and re-rolls wounds vs. Eldar and Dark Eldar.
You can buy up a AV13/13/13 Raider with 3x Dark Lances for 200 points.

10x Warriors, Blaster, Dark Lance, Raider w/ Splinter Racks = 200
Bare bones cheap with no Champ. Blaster and Dark Lance for some anti-armor and Splinter Racks so everyone gets re-rolls to hit with their poisoned Splinter Rifles. If you want pure poison, you can drop the Dark Lance and Blaster and just go with a Splinter Cannon.

10x Wyches, Hekatrix, Phantasm, Agonizer, 2x Hydra Gauntlets, Raider w/ Aethersails = 225
Get up in your face, jump out and start swinging. Hopefully whatever you targeted with your Bombers and other units have already popped your intended target vehicle and the guys inside are ready to rock (or get rocked).

10x Trueborn, 4x Blasters, 2x Dark Lances, Raider w/ Flickerfields and Night Shields = 320
This is my boardside ship with the amount of hurt it can deliver to armor. Your objective is to saturate the field with as many targets as possible and then bring this thing around at any armor that's in your way. With this much firepower coming from the Raider, you're looking at guaranteed destruction of said target. If you really want to be badass, you should take Vect's gunship and load 9 of these guys in there.

10x Scourge w/ 4x Splinter Cannons = 260
Let's see what you get for 260 points with Splinter Cannons. Each one has Assault 3 Poisoned shots that shoots at 18". Each Splinter Cannon shoots with Assault 4 Poisoned shots or Heavy 6 when standing still. Total, per turn, you're looking at 34 poisoned shots per turn from 10 dudes at 18" or 16 at 36" (24 standing still). Utterly ridiculous.

10x Harlequins, Kisses, Shadowseer, Troupe Master w/ Power Weapon = 256
Shadowseer and 8x Harlequins have kisses, Troupe Master has a Weapon Weapon, and I might take a Death Jester just because for no reason. These guys do their job and they do it very well.

Voidraven Bomber w/ Flickerfields and Night Shields, 2x Shatterfield Missiles = 185
Take three of these every game. There's no reason not to! I mean if you look at it, each one shoots two S9 AP2 Lance while moving. Each Shatterfield Missile is a S7 5" blast with re-rolls to wound and you can even drop a S9 AP2 Lance 5" blast on someone's head. Stay in the back and shoot away!

Ravager w/ Flickerfields and Night Shields = 125
Mobile shooting platform with 3x Dark Lances. Stay at max range and shoot away all game. Those that target these will not be targeting your troops so it's all good.

**Sidstyler**

:\ Everyone's hating on incubi, that's really depressing. The incubi were my favorite of the new models and if they're not worth using I'm going to be pissed.

**Archonate**

Sidstyler wrote::\ Everyone's hating on incubi, that's really depressing. The incubi were my favorite of the new models and if they're not worth using I'm going to be pissed.

They actually seem very much like they used to be. As long as they're WS5, S4, I5, A2, Sv3+ with power weapons, they're gonna cut fools as good as ever. Only now they have fleet, making them a little better!

**DaR**

Sidstyler wrote::\ Everyone's hating on incubi, that's really depressing. The incubi were my favorite of the new models and if they're not worth using I'm going to be pissed.

I think people had some unrealistic expectations.

Incubi are just fine. 22 points for a 3+ save with a S4 power weapon and 2 base attacks is very solid. Everyone is complaining about the lack of grenades as if that were totally crippling. I don't know about everyone else, but on the tables I typically play on there's only 1/4 to 1/3rd terrain. That leaves the vast majority of the table open. Things which disembark transports (or are blown out of them) are usually in the open. Things which consolidated back from combat are often in the open. If you can't work around a little area terrain, you're probably not going to be happy with Dark Eldar for plenty of other reasons.

That said, there's at least a couple of interesting ways to improve them.

Power Through Pain tokens make them one of the tougher units DE can field. 3+ with FNP, even on T3, is pretty respectable. You can easily get a PtP token right from the start by having a Haemonculi join them, then having him split off at some point. Or from the shooting attacks of a Cronos.

In the previous codex, they were basically Archon retinue only. If you continue to use them that way, your archon can take Phantasm Grenade Launchers and the problem's solved.

Personally, I'm liking the idea of 5 of them in a Venom. They're a "finisher" unit. Let Warriors, Reavers, and other shooting tear up the unit unit it's down to a a few models. Then, instead of devoting an entire unit's worth of shooting to killing 2 or 3 models, have the Incubi pounce them in combat, picking up the token.

**puma713**

Archonate wrote:
Sidstyler wrote::\ Everyone's hating on incubi, that's really depressing. The incubi were my favorite of the new models and if they're not worth using I'm going to be pissed.

They actually seem very much like they used to be. As long as they're WS5, S4, I5, A2, Sv3+ with power weapons, they're gonna cut fools as good as ever. Only now they have fleet, making them a little better!

Unless the enemy lies just beyond a ridge, or in a forest, or in a crater that the dark lances just made of their transport.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

DaR wrote:

Power Through Pain tokens make them one of the tougher units DE can field. 3+ with FNP, even on T3, is pretty respectable. You can easily get a PtP token right from the start by having a Haemonculi join them, then having him split off at some point. Or from the shooting attacks of a Cronos.

And I also think that the FNP in this army is getting overplayed. Why can every unit get it? Because it can be negated by any AP1, AP2 and any Strength 6 weapon. And there are lots of those out there.

**greenbay924**

I'm really liking the incubi, went over to my FLGS to peek at the codex for about 20 minutes, probably going back over there to actually list build to make my pre-order list.

They have WS5, A2 S3 with +1S power weapons, at I5. That's not too shabby coming in at 22 points. I can't remember what the upgrade points were for the klavex, the demiklaves or the other upgrades, but it wasn't too bad. I think a unit of 10 would mostly be TOO much hit (not to mention too many points in one unit). Maybe a unit of 5 in a venom? Dunno, never played dark eldar before, so I'm probably going to screw up a lot.

On another note, I'm kind of impressed with wracks. For the cost of a wych you get something with T4, FNP (from the token) two poisoned 4+ attacks, and the chance to upgrade with 2 liquifiers (I think).

I think it would be fun to run a list like this:

urien
haemonculus

wracks x10
wracks x10
wracks x10

grotesque x5
grotesque x5
grotesque x5

put em all in raiders. I bet it as ZERO competitiveness to it, as there's hardly any anti-tank (just the lances on the 6 raiders). The conversion possibilities sounds like a lot of fun though! I have no idea how I would go about it though, maybe some parts from marauders/WOC, looking at the picture gives some good ideas.

**zeekill**

Gwar! wrote:
zeekill wrote:
BloodThirSTAR wrote:If you take Vect you have 75 percent odds to go first. When mech players realize this they will opt to place their army in reserve. So you move flatout into their deployment zone and let them come in piece meal. This gives dark eldar numerical supremacy which they can capitalize on using their melta lances and haywire grenades. Armies that rely solely upon mech units will suffer greatly in close combat versus DE. The other problem was hordes but now as many realize DE have poison weapons.

Even better, you move Raiders flat out 24"+2D6" first turn

Then another 24+2D6" second turn and park them literally all across his Board Edge. His second turn, half his army comes in and dies immediately because it cant deploy (minus outflanking vendettas) (2/3 die if he took the astropath).

Then third turn you pivot a little bit and light up the vendettas, his third turn you are still covering the edge and the rest of his army dies.

At the very least you will be having raider-Vendetta dogfights for the rest of the game, but you will be winning by around 14 killpoints

Now obviously this is will not happen every time, but you have to admit that would be just about the most awesome way to win a game
What?

This part is not what the rules say.

His units come in on a 4+ dont they? So 1 out of every 2 units come in. Therefore 1/2.
If he takes the astropath the roll is on a 3+, therefore 2/3.

If they need to come off of the table edge but they cannot actually drive onto the table because there is no gap large enough to fit his vehicles (or giant blob squads for that matter) then they count as destroyed.

**Gwar!**

zeekill wrote:If they need to come off of the table edge but they cannot actually drive onto the table because there is no gap large enough to fit his vehicles (or giant blob squads for that matter) then they count as destroyed.

No, they don't...

Would you like to point a rule that says that?

**evilsponge**

**whocares**

I like how their transport section specifically says that you can not take a transport for a squad too large for it to hold.

I also like how the archon can take a retinue character that makes all of his poison attacks 2+, but an agonizer is not a poison weapon, it is a power weapon that always wounds on a 4+.

Eh, yeah, 30+ pages so these probably already came up, but I just sat down and read the whole codex and those jumped out at me.

**CajunMan550**

@evil that guy won cuz the other guy couldn't deploy all game long. Things die if they can't get on by the end so all his gak died.

**puma713**

CajunMan550 wrote:@evil that guy won cuz the other guy couldn't deploy all game long. Things die if they can't get on by the end so all his gak died.

CajunMan, you are to 40K what John Madden is to football. Thank you for the succinct explanation of what was going on in the picture.

**evilsponge**

CajunMan550 wrote:@evil that guy won cuz the other guy couldn't deploy all game long. Things die if they can't get on by the end so all his gak died.

**Gwar!**

So... A Tournaments House rule is suddenly a BRB Rule now?

**evilsponge**

whocares wrote:I like how their transport section specifically says that you can not take a transport for a squad too large for it to hold.

I didn't read about this yet. Why would they do this? Are you sure Gav and Jervis didn't team up to help write this one?

**Hulksmash**

Pretty sure it says if a unit isn't deployed by the end of the game it counts as destroyed. Could be wrong or could be thinking of a different edition but that's how I thought it worked.

@Evilsponge

They aren't Space Marines, who can theoretically split to fit inside a smaller compacity vehicle. So they would obviously only be able to buy a transport to fit them. Pretty sure Ogryns in the IG book can only take a chimera if they are 6 or less.

**Gwar!**

Hulksmash wrote:Pretty sure it says if a unit isn't deployed by the end of the game it counts as destroyed. Could be wrong or could be thinking of a different edition but that's how I thought it worked.

If a unit is somehow still in RESERVES at the end of the game (for example, Deep Strike Mishap), then it counts as destroyed.

Nothing says that being prevented from deploying magically makes you destroyed.

**Hulksmash**

Nope, but basically by denying them the ability to deploy all game you destroy them. They just skipped a step on ya Gwar

**puma713**

Gwar! wrote:
Hulksmash wrote:Pretty sure it says if a unit isn't deployed by the end of the game it counts as destroyed. Could be wrong or could be thinking of a different edition but that's how I thought it worked.
If a unit is somehow still in RESERVES at the end of the game (for example, Deep Strike Mishap), then it counts as destroyed.

Nothing says that being prevented from deploying magically makes you destroyed.

And why would an entire army not be deployed turn 1, allowing someone to get flush with their board edge? Everyone being in reserve.

Edit: Can we leave YMDC in the YMDC forum? There's a reason I hardly ever go in there anymore.

**Gwar!**

puma713 wrote:
Gwar! wrote:
Hulksmash wrote:Pretty sure it says if a unit isn't deployed by the end of the game it counts as destroyed. Could be wrong or could be thinking of a different edition but that's how I thought it worked.
If a unit is somehow still in RESERVES at the end of the game (for example, Deep Strike Mishap), then it counts as destroyed.

Nothing says that being prevented from deploying magically makes you destroyed.

And why would an entire army not be deployed turn 1, allowing someone to get flush with their board edge? Everyone being in reserve.

Edit: Can we leave YMDC in the YMDC forum? There's a reason I hardly ever go in there anymore.

And again, they are not in reserves at the end of the game, they made their reserve rolls, so they cannot be in reserves.

To claim they are auto destroyed is not supported by the rules, end of discussion.

**puma713**

Gwar! wrote:
puma713 wrote:
Gwar! wrote:

Nothing says that being prevented from deploying magically makes you destroyed.

And why would an entire army not be deployed turn 1, allowing someone to get flush with their board edge? Everyone being in reserve.

Edit: Can we leave YMDC in the YMDC forum? There's a reason I hardly ever go in there anymore.
And again, they are not in reserves at the end of the game, they made their reserve rolls, so they cannot be in reserves.

To claim they are auto destroyed is not supported by the rules, end of discussion.

If they're not in reserves and they're not deployed, where are they? According to the rulebook? Don't answer - it's hypothetical. Stop being obtuse.

**CajunMan550**

I thought you were trying to back up the other dude with the pic. W/e I like john madden I smoked alot and in the 70s I was always doing little bunny foo foo.

**evilsponge**

Gwar! wrote:
puma713 wrote:
Gwar! wrote:
Hulksmash wrote:Pretty sure it says if a unit isn't deployed by the end of the game it counts as destroyed. Could be wrong or could be thinking of a different edition but that's how I thought it worked.
If a unit is somehow still in RESERVES at the end of the game (for example, Deep Strike Mishap), then it counts as destroyed.

Nothing says that being prevented from deploying magically makes you destroyed.

And why would an entire army not be deployed turn 1, allowing someone to get flush with their board edge? Everyone being in reserve.

Edit: Can we leave YMDC in the YMDC forum? There's a reason I hardly ever go in there anymore.
And again, they are not in reserves at the end of the game, they made their reserve rolls, so they cannot be in reserves.

To claim they are auto destroyed is not supported by the rules, end of discussion.

lol what?

**Gwar!**

puma713 wrote:If they're not in reserves and they're not deployed, where are they? According to the rulebook? Don't answer - it's hypothetical. Stop being obtuse.

I'll answer anyway:

The rulebook doesn't say what to do, so you have to make something up.

Claiming that the rules say they are destroyed is like claiming the rulebook lets Taus use 2D6 all of their armour saves.

**lonekthx**

Gwar! wrote:
Hulksmash wrote:Pretty sure it says if a unit isn't deployed by the end of the game it counts as destroyed. Could be wrong or could be thinking of a different edition but that's how I thought it worked.
If a unit is somehow still in RESERVES at the end of the game (for example, Deep Strike Mishap), then it counts as destroyed.

Nothing says that being prevented from deploying magically makes you destroyed.

"Page 90 BRB:

Wipeout! - Regardless of the victory conditions, if at the end of any standard mission your enemy has no units left on the table, you win the game!"

At the end of the game, this is understood as the units being destroyed for kill point purposes because the unit is not on the table, which is the same as if it were destroyed.

**whocares**

evilsponge wrote:
whocares wrote:I like how their transport section specifically says that you can not take a transport for a squad too large for it to hold.

I didn't read about this yet. Why would they do this? Are you sure Gav and Jervis didn't team up to help write this one?

They obviously did it to keep a level of consistency between the codices.

That level being zero.

But, hey, you need to start somewhere.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hulksmash wrote:Pretty sure it says if a unit isn't deployed by the end of the game it counts as destroyed. Could be wrong or could be thinking of a different edition but that's how I thought it worked.

@Evilsponge

They aren't Space Marines, who can theoretically split to fit inside a smaller compacity vehicle. So they would obviously only be able to buy a transport to fit them. Pretty sure Ogryns in the IG book can only take a chimera if they are 6 or less.

I can take a squad of 20 chaos marines + rhino.

**Gwar!**

lonekthx wrote:"Page 90 BRB:

Wipeout! - Regardless of the victory conditions, if at the end of any standard mission your enemy has no units left on the table, you win the game!"

At the end of the game, this is understood as the units being destroyed for kill point purposes because the unit is not on the table, which is the same as if it were destroyed.

-Sigh- You are not listening.

The Reserves rules FORCE you to place units on the table when they arrive from reserves, so it is IMPOSSIBLE for units that have made their reserves roll to not be on the table unless something explicitly stops them from being so (being Killed, Being put back into reserves etc).

Nothing says "if your edge is blocked, you are auto-killed."

**Ketara**

errrr.....could you guys move back over to the Rules Discussion forum?