Dark Eldar Rules Discussion

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**whocares**

Gwar! wrote:
lonekthx wrote:"Page 90 BRB:

Wipeout! - Regardless of the victory conditions, if at the end of any standard mission your enemy has no units left on the table, you win the game!"

At the end of the game, this is understood as the units being destroyed for kill point purposes because the unit is not on the table, which is the same as if it were destroyed.
-Sigh- You are not listening.

The Reserves rules FORCE you to place units on the table when they arrive from reserves, so it is IMPOSSIBLE for units that have made their reserves roll to not be on the table unless something explicitly stops them from being so (being Killed, Being put back into reserves etc).

Nothing says "if your edge is blocked, you are auto-killed."

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/321769.page#2012081

**Leggy**

So to those who've read the codex, which would you say was the better choice for tank hunting, the voidraven or the ravager? From what I've read the void lances sound devastating, but you can get far more dark lances by spamming ravagers, and it'll end up cheaper.
Thoughts from the better informed?

**whocares**

Leggy wrote:So to those who've read the codex, which would you say was the better choice for tank hunting, the voidraven or the ravager? From what I've read the void lances sound devastating, but you can get far more dark lances by spamming ravagers, and it'll end up cheaper.
Thoughts from the better informed?

Between the two specifically for tank hunting and nothing else (so ignoring the missiles and cool deepstrike rules) I'd go for the ravager.

You have three str 8 lances vs. 2 str. 9 lances, which makes them fairly comparable for tank busting, but the ravager is 40 points cheaper.

But that is ignoring all the rules not pertaining specifically to tank busting. You can do mean things to troops with neurotoxic missiles.

Although really, I wouldn't even rely on heavy support for tank busting. I would think raiders and blasters have that covered to an acceptable degree.

**Leggy**

I go up against mech guard about 3x more than any other army, so tankbusting is a priority. I can clean up the gooey innards with just about anything else in the list.
Not sold on reavers for anti-armour though. They're so fragile having them not turboboost would be very dependant on the battlefield. I much prefer the idea of them moving 3 foot every turn and harassing units with bladevanes and cluster caltrops, then racing to contest objectives at endgame.
To my eyes scourges are the fast attack tank hunters. Higher density of tankhunting weapons per squad and better saves.

**Gwar!**

I think Ravagers are the best option.

At a paltry Cost of the Points cost of Swarmlord/(Maximum # of Models in a Tyrant Guard Brood - Minimum #of models in a Thunderwolf Cavalry Squad) + (cost of a Chaos Space Marine), you get 3 Dark Lances that can Move 12" and Fire (so need 6s to hit in assault instead of 4's like before), has a 5++ Save and is immune to the Melta Effect of Meltaguns and can only be hit at 36" by 48" range guns!

(That's 125 Points if you hadn't worked it out!

)

**reds8n**

With this being now more discussion regarding established and well documented rules rather than rumoured ones, I'm going to move this thread to 40K general discussion.

**whocares**

Leggy wrote:I go up against mech guard about 3x more than any other army, so tankbusting is a priority. I can clean up the gooey innards with just about anything else in the list.
Not sold on reavers for anti-armour though. They're so fragile having them not turboboost would be very dependant on the battlefield. I much prefer the idea of them moving 3 foot every turn and harassing units with bladevanes and cluster caltrops, then racing to contest objectives at endgame.
To my eyes scourges are the fast attack tank hunters. Higher density of tankhunting weapons per squad and better saves.

No, not reaver, raiders.

Your basic transport can move 12" and fire a dark lance.

And you can fit 9 of them in 1,000 points.

**Snord**

puma713 wrote:Some more fine details from HERO's Gaming Blog here http://lkhero.blogspot.com/:

HERO wrote:...After looking at the Venom vs. Raider argument again, I took another long hard look at the two and came up with the following: Venoms aren't too bad. They're 55 points, so 5 less than a Raider but comes with some serious anti-infantry weaponry. They also come with Flickerfields so that's a free 5++ invulnerable. I would say these things are great anti-infantry paper-thin Razorbacks. They can replace their TL Splinter Rifles with another Splinter Cannon for 10 points so they can have 2. That's a total of 12 poisoned shots coming out from 36" while moving 6" because of Fast. For 65 points, you have a wound generator that can remain at max range and apply pressure to any infantry that gets blown out of their transports. Throw some cheap Wyches or Warriors in them and they act as pretty solid scoring transports that can put down a decent amount of hurt. I think when put into that perspective, their usefulness just increased by a lot.

In terms of Warriors, I think the idea configuration for them will be a Blaster and a Dark Lance. The Champion should probably take a Agnoizer for +20 or Power Weapon for +10 and call it a day. As for Wyches, I think the best loadout for them will be 2x Hydra Gauntlets, Champ with Phantasm Launcher and Agonizer. After thinking really hard about which one will generate more wounds; the Hydra Gauntlets or the Razorflails and I think the Hydra Gauntlets will probably offer more. The good thing about Wyches or Bloodbrides or is that you can put them in a Raider with Aethersails and just run them towards the enemy ASAP. Once they're locked in combat, their 4++ invulnerable will increase their chances to live by a lot and if you manage to give them FNP with some Pain Tokens then it's all good.

Lol - 'Flickerfields'. Doesn't quite have the same ring as 'Shadow field', does it. It does sound as though Venom spam will replace Raider spam.

The ideal configuration for Warrior squads used to be a splinter cannon and a blaster. That made the squad very versatile. I may have missed it, but has the splinter cannon been re-jigged?

**Gwar!**

The codex has Flickerfields and Shadowfields.

Shadowfields have the same effect as before. Flickerfields give them an Invul Save thats the same as Bjorn's or a Terminators (and like Bjorn's doesn't actually do anything!

)

**Leggy**

whocares wrote:

No, not reaver, raiders.

Your basic transport can move 12" and fire a dark lance.

And you can fit 9 of them in 1,000 points.

Urgh, it was actually the word "blasters" i read as "reavers"

I actually agree about raiders, although I doubt i'll be buying 9.

**Gwar!**

Leggy wrote:
whocares wrote:

No, not reaver, raiders.

Your basic transport can move 12" and fire a dark lance.

And you can fit 9 of them in 1,000 points.

Urgh, it was actually the word "blasters" i read as "reavers"

I actually agree about raiders, although I doubt i'll be buying 9.

Doesn't matter, all the REAL DE players have 12 already!

**Lexx**

Love the work on this kroothawk. Cant wait till November now! Will likely stick with the initial plans for a mostly Kabalite and Incubi army but the haemonculi force is fun to see possible.

**whocares**

Tailgunner wrote:
puma713 wrote:Some more fine details from HERO's Gaming Blog here http://lkhero.blogspot.com/:

HERO wrote:...After looking at the Venom vs. Raider argument again, I took another long hard look at the two and came up with the following: Venoms aren't too bad. They're 55 points, so 5 less than a Raider but comes with some serious anti-infantry weaponry. They also come with Flickerfields so that's a free 5++ invulnerable. I would say these things are great anti-infantry paper-thin Razorbacks. They can replace their TL Splinter Rifles with another Splinter Cannon for 10 points so they can have 2. That's a total of 12 poisoned shots coming out from 36" while moving 6" because of Fast. For 65 points, you have a wound generator that can remain at max range and apply pressure to any infantry that gets blown out of their transports. Throw some cheap Wyches or Warriors in them and they act as pretty solid scoring transports that can put down a decent amount of hurt. I think when put into that perspective, their usefulness just increased by a lot.

In terms of Warriors, I think the idea configuration for them will be a Blaster and a Dark Lance. The Champion should probably take a Agnoizer for +20 or Power Weapon for +10 and call it a day. As for Wyches, I think the best loadout for them will be 2x Hydra Gauntlets, Champ with Phantasm Launcher and Agonizer. After thinking really hard about which one will generate more wounds; the Hydra Gauntlets or the Razorflails and I think the Hydra Gauntlets will probably offer more. The good thing about Wyches or Bloodbrides or is that you can put them in a Raider with Aethersails and just run them towards the enemy ASAP. Once they're locked in combat, their 4++ invulnerable will increase their chances to live by a lot and if you manage to give them FNP with some Pain Tokens then it's all good.

Lol - 'Flickerfields'. Doesn't quite have the same ring as 'Shadow field', does it. It does sound as though Venom spam will replace Raider spam.

The ideal configuration for Warrior squads used to be a splinter cannon and a blaster. That made the squad very versatile. I may have missed it, but has the splinter cannon been re-jigged?

I don't think that the venom will replace the raider. Nor will it be over shadowed by it.

Both are useful.

The venom is fantastic anti infantry, which can seriously help with foot slogging units that eat your raiders. (lootas)

But raiders give you that basic anti tank that allows you to neutralize the other guy's mobility and fly circles around him laughing. Not to mention the increased transport capacity.

I plan on running 6 raiders, 3 venoms.

Oh, and don't forget, splinter canons are poison, and are therefore defensive weapons. A good thing to keep in mind about a venom with two canons.

**Leggy**

Gwar! wrote:
Leggy wrote:
whocares wrote:

No, not reaver, raiders.

Your basic transport can move 12" and fire a dark lance.

And you can fit 9 of them in 1,000 points.

Urgh, it was actually the word "blasters" i read as "reavers"

I actually agree about raiders, although I doubt i'll be buying 9.

Doesn't matter, all the REAL DE players have 12 already!

Any REAL real DE player would be replacing their ugly old raiders with the sexy new ones, mostly because the old ones broke off their flying stands 12 years ago (soon after he assembled them, in fact).
In fairness, I'm not a dedicated or obsessive deldar player, as they've had no love for so long. However I collected them as they first came out,
so I'm claiming veteran status.

**Lexx**

Hehe very true leggy

.

**Rymafyr**

Leggy wrote:Any REAL real DE player would be replacing their ugly old raiders with the sexy new ones, mostly because the old ones broke off their flying stands 12 years ago (soon after he assembled them, in fact).
In fairness, I'm not a dedicated or obsessive deldar player, as they've had no love for so long. However I collected them as they first came out, so I'm claiming veteran status.

Eventually yes. As I replace old raiders with new ones, I'll use the old Raiders as venoms. I'm not dropping the money at one shot just to replace 3000 pts because of new models.

For the record, all my old raiders are still on their bases.

**puma713**

whocares wrote: are poison, and are therefore defensive weapons.

Huh?

Edit: Nevermind, I see what you're saying. You're saying since they're Str. X, they are defensive. However, I'm not sure that they are Str. X. When looking at the weapon profiles, I don't remember many X's and if everything is poison, there would have been a ton of them.

**zeekill**

Hey quick question was the voidraven the one that can take 4 large blast one-shot weapons or was that the other vehicle that costs the same amount?

**puma713**

zeekill wrote:Hey quick question was the voidraven the one that can take 4 large blast one-shot weapons or was that the other vehicle that costs the same amount?

Pretty sure that was the Razorwing Jetfighter. The Voidraven Bomber has a Void Mine and two Str. 9 lances, iirc.

**Skarboy**

The Venom will be useful, but with a transport capacity of only 5, it is obviously limited. I plan on converting some out of Vypers (since there is no guarantee they will get a model) and probably be using them for Trueborn units with Splinter Cannons. 4 total splinter cannons in that slot should deliver plenty of concentrated fire.

Raiders are still my transport of choice because of the Dark Lance and the larger carrying capacity for units like Wyches, Court of the Archon, Wracks, etc.

**Irdiumstern**

Did the math earlier on Voidraven vs. Ravenger. They deal almost identical damage (One did .002 more destroyed results per turn, but hey) Time will tell whether the missiles are worth `45 points

**Ketara**

Use one of these as the VoidRaven Bomber perhaps?

**puma713**

Ketara wrote:Use one of these as the VoidRaven Bomber perhaps?
[img]*snip pic*

Isn't the Void Phoenix huge though? I was thinking the size of wave serpents or, maybe a bit bigger in the vein of vendettas, but I would think that's a bit big for a skimmer.

**SaintHazard**

puma713 wrote:Isn't the Void Phoenix huge though? I was thinking the size of wave serpents or, maybe a bit bigger in the vein of vendettas, but I would think that's a bit big for a skimmer.

Just claim the wings as a cosmetic addition and deny LOS to them.

**Oshova**

Well seeing as my Dad already bought one of those stupidly cheap . . . Maybe I can persuade him to let me have it

Oshova

**Brother Ramses**

I got to check out the new codex and grats to the DE players finally getting a new dex. As a SW player, I know the feeling.

That being said, I don't see anything I can't beat with my all-comers 1750pt list. I look forward to crushing the band wagon jumpers that toss a bunch of money at the new models and don't know how to play DE and ESPECIALLY look forward to the veteran players that will bring the DE "A-game".

To battle ya pointy eared emo-pervs!!

**Rymafyr**

That Void Pheonix doesn't look much bigger than a Wave serpent...

**Ketara**

Is it any bigger than say, a Valkyrie though?

**airmang**

It's about the same size as a Valkyrie. They come with the same base now too.

And most of the ranged "poison" weapons are SX. There are number of other SX weapons also (use characteristic tests instead).

**lonekthx**

Gwar! wrote:
lonekthx wrote:"Page 90 BRB:

Wipeout! - Regardless of the victory conditions, if at the end of any standard mission your enemy has no units left on the table, you win the game!"

At the end of the game, this is understood as the units being destroyed for kill point purposes because the unit is not on the table, which is the same as if it were destroyed.
-Sigh- You are not listening.

The Reserves rules FORCE you to place units on the table when they arrive from reserves, so it is IMPOSSIBLE for units that have made their reserves roll to not be on the table unless something explicitly stops them from being so (being Killed, Being put back into reserves etc).

Nothing says "if your edge is blocked, you are auto-killed."

You can't come on the board edge because you can't be within 1" of an enemy model, thus keeping you off the table. This doesn't work against vehicles or skimmers because they can either tank shock or fly right over, same with jump troops.