The Citadel Finecast metal to resin change thread.

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**Lunchb0x**

I feel sorry for the LGS, they will need to carry more stock, just to cover the 6-1 ratio of bad to good minis. They will lose money due to more floor space lost to GW faulty products, or storage space lost to it, either way LGSs get screwed by this. Then they will need to spend more money in shipping the faulty minis back to GW to get replacements. Overall, the capitol that will be lost by both sides of the this, is going to end up being astronomical.

: slow dramatic clap :

This ladies and gentlemen, is how you shoot your self in the proverbial foot.

**olympia**

GW needs to hire some Six Sigma Black Belts. What a mess they've made of their launch.

**Vimes**

Lunchb0x wrote:This ladies and gentlemen, is how you shoot your self in the proverbial foot.

Seriously?

With all those people jumping to other games and "quitting" GW they are up to the knee allready, with all those recent announcements.

**winterdyne**

Here's the break down of the types of issues:

0) Small "pinprick" or slightly larger bubbles on a surface that don't disrupt the shape of a thing (e.g. in the middle of a portion of armor or cloth). This isn't really a problem, and is the "dab a lil superglue or putty in and smooth it out" kind of thing that's not unusual with resin. Which is why this is issue 0, I wanted to call it out as something different and easily handled as opposed to more serious bubble issues.

1) Air bubbles that do disrupt the shape of a thing: these are the spikes not fully formed, parts of feet missing, chunks out of armor plates. These are generally characterized by the smooth shiny surface where the bubble prevented the model from filling. These are things that require resculpting to fix. Which may be relatively easy (putting the tip onto a spike) to devilishly difficult (reforming armor plates with detail on them).

2) Tear out: this is a form of mold damage found with metal castings as well. This is the result of a sharp part of the model (e.g. a rivet or edge of armor or clothing) that is buried beneath the mold surface, and drags across the surface of the cavity as the casting is pulled out. This wears and abrades the mold material, and as material is worm away, metal fills that damaged mold area in future castings. This appears as a "shadow" of jagged material extending from the portion of the model causing the damage, and builds up over time (one of the worst examples I've seen was one of the metal Tau Crisis Suit Commander heads where half of the opening of the face was obscured by a sheet of tear out extending across it).

3) Silicone breakdown: Resin attacks silicone, bonding to it and breaking it down. Mold release will slow this process down, but not prevent it, and GW says they aren't using it anyways. Basically, over time, this will degrade the overall surface quality of the mold cavities, so if you have, say, a smooth sweep of cloth, it will start getting rougher looking, both at the edges and across the surface. In extreme cases, it will show as a lumpy texturing, possibly mixed with tiny chunks of mold rubber. Similarly, if you have a thing strand of mold material going between surfaces of a model (such as with Grey Knights, between their head and the raised crest of their armor), it can bind enough that a portion of that strand will snap off before it releases free of the part, leaving future castings to simply fill in that area).

4) Overpressure/insufficient fill: This can be similar to issue 1, and is also something that can be found in metal models, though resin seems more prone to it (the lighter material means it drives into the cavity with less force). This is where the opposing surfaces of the mold cavity are pressed too close together and the material can't properly flow into an area and fill it. The Draigo shoulder ridge I have picture above is a perfect example: it's simply a wisp of heavy flash more than a formed piece of armor.

5) Part distortion: this is occasionally seen in metal, but only when the pressure is high enough that it starts to deform the mold. Resin is far more susceptible to this. Metal sets and hardens very quickly (for tin-based pewters generally used in miniatures, you can open a mold 30 seconds after it's pored and have pieces as solid as they'll ever be, large components can take up to a couple of minutes.). Resin has two working characteristics: pot life, which is how long it is essentially liquid and pourable, and cure time, which is how long until it has solidified enough to keep its shape. In between, it is soft and pliable, and liable to deformation. If removed early, just the force of being pulled out of a mold can stretch or distort it, and it will then finish setting in that distorted shape. For an example, note the front of the Marneus Calgar legs I posted, and how the gem and skull on his crotch-plate are "smeared" out of shape.

6) Mold offset: This is found in both metal and resin, and is a result of the mold halves being not properly aligned with each other. The result, pretty obviously, is a part where one half is shifted away from true with the other, creating project ridges on either side of the part in the axis of the shift. Minor shift is little different than a mold line (which is essentially a tiny ridge of flash as the material pushes between the mold halves), but more significant shift requires essentially resculpting the affected portions of the model. And if his happens across a face or other area of fine detail, can be pretty much impossible to correct.

For point of background, I've been professionally casting miniatures and making molds for about 8 years, mostly in metal, but with some resin experience too.

And can you tell us which of those issues in your professional opinion should cause cast pieces to be rejected?

**Alendrel**

winterdyne wrote:
And can you tell us which of those issues in your professional opinion should cause cast pieces to be rejected?

All six.

EDIT: To clarify, any one of those issues would be something that I'd be embarrassed to let slip past me as a caster. Now mistakes do happen, but the scale and scope of what we are seeing shape up is disheartening, and appear to be more systemic than a few human error slipping by; i.e. either the people involved aren't trained well enough to know, or have been directed to send these out regardless.

My hard limit is issues that require the end customer to have to resculpt parts of the model. Clean up (flash, vents, very slight mold shift not over detail) is to be expected, some fitwork on getting arts together, including some filing/shaving and a bit of green stuff, is reasonable. Issues requiring replacing missing portions of the model, or having to carve down and redo parts that are so mangled or damaged that just cleaning won't work, are and always shoudl be grounds for rejecting a casting.

**olympia**

My brother is a plastics engineer. I was talking to him about this and he knows of NO OTHER instance where a company would ship defective pieces like this.

**Peatreed**

Went into the store on day of release - great fro big models and boxes such as the aspect warriors, mandrakes, e.t.c., but for blister packs (LotR foot and mounted for example), it's £20 for two plastic like models - you just don't feel you're getting value for money. the amount of flash and mould lines e.t.c was horrific, with spikes protruding form the models al over! Some sprues were even filled with a thin layer of resin! I was so excited about getting a finecast model, I was adamant, but in the end I never bought anything. -Crap-

Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the way, the detail level is exactly the same but with a chalky look.

**Eilif**

Do we know for sure whether finecast are coming out of metal or silicon/latex/rubber flexible molds?

I'm hearing both on this thread, and they can't both be right.

On the one hand, flexible molds are uaual for resin. However, I have a hard time believing they're using flexible, limited-life molds on models produced for mass distribution.

**Alendrel**

Eilif wrote:Do we know for sure whether finecast are coming out of metal or silicon/latex/rubber flexible molds?

I'm hearing both on this thread, and they can't both be right.

On the one hand, flexible molds are uaual for resin. However, I have a hard time believing they're using flexible, limited-life molds on models produced for mass distribution.

They are absolutely, 100% using silicone rubber molds. These are models sculpted for such, and thus have undercuts and such that are impossible (or beyond prohibitively expensive) to do in metal molds. Also, you can commonly find bits of the silicone rubber stuck to or embedded in the parts you get.

**NoBaconz4You**

Picked up a Castellan Crowe today. I am really pleased, no miscasts or air bubbles/voids. The flash and mould lines were few and far between, and the resin mix is very durable (bendy and springs back, I managed to get the sword to 180 degrees and didn't snap).

I am using him as a base for conversion and thus needed to lop off both of his arms/shoulders, it was an ease. The material is great, and the detail is crisp. The only issue was a small piece of rubber in a corner detail, and the resin was a bit too thin on the back banner (not using it though). Overall I am very happy with the purchase, I'm not sure if you guys have all had bad luck, or just being overly picky in rage mode.

May I add that it is much better than FW resin by far, and a huge step up from metal.

**hlaine.larkin**

NoBaconz4You wrote:Picked up a Castellan Crowe today. I am really pleased, no miscasts or air bubbles/voids. The flash and mould lines were few and far between, and the resin mix is very durable (bendy and springs back, I managed to get the sword to 180 degrees and didn't snap).

I am using him as a base for conversion and thus needed to lop off both of his arms/shoulders, it was an ease. The material is great, and the detail is crisp. The only issue was a small piece of rubber in a corner detail, and the resin was a bit too thin on the back banner (not using it though). Overall I am very happy with the purchase, I'm not sure if you guys have all had bad luck, or just being overly picky in rage mode.

May I add that it is much better than FW resin by far, and a huge step up from metal.

The general consensus of the thread is that it is good, but many many casting errors. assuming we are raging because we are not with your example is a flawed argument, of the experiences in my Local GW today, about 1/6 people were in your situation with a workable cast

**Kilkrazy**

It sounds like your one had a couple of issues but you ignored them.

NoBaconz4You wrote:The only issue was a small piece of rubber in a corner detail, and the resin was a bit too thin on the back banner (not using it though).

**Neith**

Well, I finally noticed I did get a miscast/issue on my DE Archon- part of the Huskblade is actually missing (on the blade, a small piece is cut away which shouldn't be). Not too bothered on this occasion since it still looks fine, but I guess this is the kind of thing you have to watch out for with Finecast.

**Henners91**

Think I can return my unopened metal blisters?

It'd be sweet to replace them with resin.

**NoBaconz4You**

Kilkrazy wrote:It sounds like your one had a couple of issues but you ignored them.

NoBaconz4You wrote:The only issue was a small piece of rubber in a corner detail, and the resin was a bit too thin on the back banner (not using it though).

I didn't ignore the problem, I solved it. The back banner issue was no biggie, still fine to work with just you could see it was slightly thinner if held up to the light. The tiny piece of rubber was removed within seconds, however I do acknowledge this supposed 'piece of the rubber mould' may cause issues in the future.

Also, to the other guy: I am not trying to argue, but I'll try to rephrase: I have been very fortunate and happy with my purchase, possibly making me oblivious to majority of problems. Before I bought him I was expecting hell, judging by the gak storm here on dakka, but because of my fortune I was pleasantly surprised and wanted to let others know. I guess not ALL are miscasts, I was just lucky.

I'll still stick to my word about it being a far more easier material to work with. This conversion would no way have been possible with the metal mini.

**hlaine.larkin**

NoBaconz4You wrote:

Also, to the other guy: I am not trying to argue, but I'll try to rephrase: I have been very fortunate and happy with my purchase, possibly making me oblivious to majority of problems. Before I bought him I was expecting hell, judging by the gak storm here on dakka, but because of my fortune I was pleasantly surprised and wanted to let others know. I guess not ALL are miscasts, I was just lucky.

I'll still stick to my word about it being a far more easier material to work with. This conversion would no way have been possible with the metal mini.

I apologise for the mis interpretation

i was just trying to say that the general tone is that it would be cool- if it was reliable and reasonably priced, as you are right- it is epic for conversion

**Kroothawk**

Made a poll "If you have bought a Finecast model, was it a miscast?" to get a more objective picture of the abundance of miscasts:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/372324.page
Please take part only if you actually bought a Finecast model. It is not a poll on your opinion on Finecast.

**NoBaconz4You**

hlaine.larkin wrote:
NoBaconz4You wrote:

Also, to the other guy: I am not trying to argue, but I'll try to rephrase: I have been very fortunate and happy with my purchase, possibly making me oblivious to majority of problems. Before I bought him I was expecting hell, judging by the gak storm here on dakka, but because of my fortune I was pleasantly surprised and wanted to let others know. I guess not ALL are miscasts, I was just lucky.

I'll still stick to my word about it being a far more easier material to work with. This conversion would no way have been possible with the metal mini.

I apologise for the mis interpretation i was just trying to say that the general tone is that it would be cool- if it was reliable and reasonably priced, as you are right- it is epic for conversion

Don't apologise, I should have worded it better!

**insaniak**

Ehsteve wrote:... The detail (especially the eyes) is so crisp it is difficult to believe it was the same mould used for its metal counterpart. ...

That's because it wasn't. Once again, these are not being produced in the same moulds. The metal models weren't cast on sprues.

**The Dwarf Wolf**

I dont know the laws in UK, but at least in my country, if a company sells a product with a clear production problem (not something you caused, but something the company let slip), you can ask for replacement, with only the product (and a certificate that you buy it) in hands. Could you people not do something like that there?

I dont know, GW would be really pissed of about their resin things, if not only theyl sell poorly, but they had to replace 5/6 of the models they sold ^^

**temprus**

olympia wrote:My brother is a plastics engineer. I was talking to him about this and he knows of NO OTHER instance where a company would ship defective pieces like this.

GW has a history of doing this before though. Anyone remember the BlastScape fiasco in mid 2009?

**platypuscorps**

All I care is that they don't put the Necromunda range OOP. And that they rehaul the other IG stuff, but I will probably be converting my own Steel Legion(think BrotherArgos' thread)

**Kilkrazy**

In the UK you would simply ask for a refund on the grounds that the product was not of merchantable quality.

If GW quibbled, you would point to their own proclamation that these are the best model soldiers in the world.

You would display your Infinity, Studio McVey and Hasslefree models, all free of defects, as proof that the GW models were inferior and did not live up to the claim made for them.

The judge would have to make a decision as to whether the GW claim was merely an advertising puff (meaningless hyperbole) or a genuine term of contract.

**Osbad**

For the prices GW are charging I'd expect the model to walk out the packaging under its own steam and salute me. Seriously the prices are so out whack with what even small boutique casters such as McVey Studio charge with none of GW's economies of scale. How anyone can justify buying this stuff when there are much better and cheaper models available is beyond my comprehension!

**RaptorsTalon**

Some prices I can understand, Emporer's Champion £9.50 for example. GW have spent a very large sum of money making what is a far superior material to metal and they need to recoupe their cash.

However, some prices, such as 5 Blood Knights £61.50, are absurd. How can 5 knights, even in finecast, be as expensive for GW to make as a Baneblade?

**hlaine.larkin**

Kilkrazy wrote:In the UK you would simply ask for a refund on the grounds that the product was not of merchantable quality.

If GW quibbled, you would point to their own proclamation that these are the best model soldiers in the world.

You would display your Infinity, Studio McVey and Hasslefree models, all free of defects, as proof that the GW models were inferior and did not live up to the claim made for them.

The judge would have to make a decision as to whether the GW claim was merely an advertising puff (meaningless hyperbole) or a genuine term of contract.

Also, games workshop has a strict 'if you bring it to us still in package, we will replace it' policy

**Dysartes**

hlaine.larkin wrote:Also, games workshop has a strict 'if you bring it to us still in package, we will replace it' policy

True - but I wonder how that'll fly when you've had to open it to find the flaw (i.e., back of the sprue in the blister).....

**Grimtuff**

insaniak wrote:
Ehsteve wrote:... The detail (especially the eyes) is so crisp it is difficult to believe it was the same mould used for its metal counterpart. ...

That's because it wasn't. Once again, these are not being produced in the same moulds. The metal models weren't cast on sprues.

They may be using different moulds but the masters are exactly the same ones, so the "extra detail" being seen is purely an illusion caused by the dullness of Resin.

We will not see the real potential of this venture until we see master models designed with this process in mind.

**Claimh_Solais**

Perhaps a strange question but when do you think the next wave of finecast will come ?
1 month , 4-6 month - 1+ years ?

**grizgrin**

Good to see that some people have had positive experiences here, and that they are getting reported. I am quite sure that the positive is getting under reported compared to the negative, which people tend to shout form the rooftops.

Is anyone getting any flak on returns? GW haven't done any tightening down of standards in that area have they? I know it's a pretty simple process, for all you jackhammers out there waiting to point that out, but GW has put out suspect product and policy both in recent years, there is no telling what they may try to put the screws to next. Really I guess this is a question for the retailers out there. Any store owners care to comment?