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Made in us
Powerful Spawning Champion





 NinthMusketeer wrote:
So getting into the Seraphon book; new fluff is good. The whole 'remembering' thing is gone and what's replaced it has more nuance and WAY more personality. I was not particularly bothered by the 1st edition fluff and generally abhor re-cons, but this was a good move in my eyes. It was both appropriate and artfully done by rolling the re-done older fluff into being legends and misconceptions. I have not gotten into unit details yet but still credit where credit is due to GW fluff writers for vastly improving things.

Matched play is totally imbalanced but it does open up a lot of options for casual players where before Seraphon were largely non-viable outside a narrow range of game breaking gimmicks. So, unlike the fluff, I would not say the battletome is good in a matched play sense but it IS a significant improvement.


I disagree on your second point. The book is very Synergetic and lives or dies by being able to buff your units with heros. There's also a lot of utility present, where you can refocus your pushing power. If the whole summoning points question is clarified then we can declare summoning either dead in the water or a decent utility tool that's been scaled back reasonably.

As it stands, this book is going to see lots of play with many different viable builds. It's going to surprise a lot of people in the meta.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/15 01:26:14


PourSpelur wrote:
It's fully within the rules for me to look up your Facebook page, find out your dear Mother Gladys is single, take her on a lovely date, and tell you all the details of our hot, sweaty, animal sex during your psychic phase.
I mean, fifty bucks is on the line.
There's no rule that says I can't.
Hive Fleet Hercual - 6760pts
Hazaak Dynasty - 3400 pts
Seraphon - 4600pts
 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






Whoops, I phrased that incorrectly. Will edit to make my meaning clear.

Edit: Fixed. What I meant to say is that it was not good quality of design; the battletome will be plenty good in performance. I expect them to be tier 1 when properly optimized, even.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/15 02:37:39


Consider; Games Workshop rules not so much games but as toolboxes for players to craft an experience from, and open/narrative/matched play just examples of how things can be put together. 
   
Made in us
Powerful Spawning Champion





Fair enough. Will definitely have to see as time goes on, considering the MW output and a lot of the durability that comes built into some army builds.

PourSpelur wrote:
It's fully within the rules for me to look up your Facebook page, find out your dear Mother Gladys is single, take her on a lovely date, and tell you all the details of our hot, sweaty, animal sex during your psychic phase.
I mean, fifty bucks is on the line.
There's no rule that says I can't.
Hive Fleet Hercual - 6760pts
Hazaak Dynasty - 3400 pts
Seraphon - 4600pts
 
   
Made in es
Skilled SDF-1 Pin-Point Barrier Jockey






Dread Master wrote:
There is nothing about the floating mage that says “female” to me. Looks like a dude. And I’m guessing that given the mage is an adept sporting the mountain rune, further supports that assumption, as the qualities of the mountain are distinctly masculine.

Funny you should say that, as "mountain" is a female noun in spanish.
   
Made in au
Blood-Drenched Death Company Marine






Can someone post some leaked images of Lumineth now?

Please and thank you :3
   
Made in tw
Longtime Dakkanaut





Dread Master wrote:
the qualities of the mountain are distinctly masculine.


Ever heard of 'Grand Teton' and the Teton mountain in the US west? Ever looked up the meaning of them name? Mountains aren't entirely masculine or feminine...

   
Made in ie
Dakka Veteran




Ireland

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:


Which having different tastes and preferences is fine. I just don't think there is much to be gained dropping posts like '3-stringed bows look like crap.' end post. There is a good deal of things in Age of Sigmar that don't suit my tastes and preferences. At least locally, more than a few people do like those things. So I am not going to make comments the are little more than getting something off my chest. It doesn't make them feel good about what they like and doesn't change the fact that it exists. I see that as a lose-lose.


It isn't about getting something off one's chest, but rather the dismay of seeing how bad GW have become. Pandering to this type of 'fantasy', is akin to picking low hanging fruit. Easy and requires little effort. Before GW's WFB range could pride it self on having an internal logic. The models were good reflections of the madness which was spreading throughout the Warhammer World. It had a variety of degrees as well, the Empire Fanatics were a different side of the coin to say the Chaos stuff. Where as the Bretonnian range saw the madness take feudalism to the extreme, for the High Elves it was to be ever focused on their faded glory and not being able to reconcile themselves with their decline.

If GW had of kept the previous miniature lines along side Age of Sigmar, it would be fine. As people would have a choice to buy which they prefer. For those of us who have played Warhammer for over 30 years, it is still painful to see something we grew up with being thrown under the bus for the likes of 3 string bow, Eel riding Elves on land, skeletons that are built like a brick excrement house and have a bone nose... Etc.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/15 14:06:56


The objective of the game is to win. The point of the game is to have fun. The two should never be confused. 
   
Made in pl
Dakka Veteran




For those of us who have played Warhammer for over 30 years, it is still painful to see something we grew up with being thrown under the bus for the likes of 3 string bow, Eel riding Elves on land, skeletons that are built like a brick excrement house and have a bone nose... Etc.

Speak for yourself.
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

I'm sorry Stonehorse but thats a ton of made up excuses to put on a pedestal something that has no intrinsic superior value to the new choices that GW made.

And I prefer WFB style to AOS. But I like both good enough.


Ask any historical fan or hardcore fantasy fan from some of the better fantasy universes, about their opinion on WFB and it won't be any better than generic troped-based fantasy.
Theres a ton of nostalgia in your opinion presented as some kind of fact or objetive reality, with very nice words that in the end mean nothing. (Tell me wheres the decline on high elf spearmen with potato hands or sisters of averlon?)


I mean. Pandering to this kind of fantasy is low hanging fruit but WFB wasn't in his prime?

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/03/15 15:18:12


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






I absolutely love all the bizarre over the top nonsense of AOS. It is surreal and fun. However, I did also like the more grounded and 'realistic' grittyness of FB, though it really had started to move away from it long time before the end times. And weirdly enough, I think these two themes, gritty grimdarkness and surreal over the top fantasy, could be combined and by doing so strengthen both. AOS needs some rat catchers, it needs people who shovel the hippogryph poop off from the flying citadel. Sure, the remnants of the Empire range are there for that, but they aren't integrated well, they would have benefited some AOSy additions that tie them to the setting better,

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

TBH Warhammer has spent more time being over the top nonsense than realistic grittyness.


I mean. 1-4 editions and 8th and AoS vs basically 5th-7th.

Thats something I always find funny when 5th-7th fans of WFB call AoS all kind of names when you have the oldhammer group and fans of 1st-3rd editions having the same opinion about 5th-7th, how GW lost their way, the game changed in something unrecognisable, etc...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/15 15:27:42


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in ie
Dakka Veteran




Ireland

 Galas wrote:
I'm sorry Stonehorse but thats a ton of made up excuses to put on a pedestal something that has no intrinsic superior value to the new choices that GW made.

And I prefer WFB style to AOS. But I like both good enough.


Ask any historical fan or hardcore fantasy fan from some of the better fantasy universes, about their opinion on WFB and it won't be any better than generic troped-based fantasy.
Theres a ton of nostalgia in your opinion presented as some kind of fact or objetive reality, with very nice words that in the end mean nothing.


I play historical (Late medieval and Napoleonic), so not sure what point you are trying to make there.

Yes WFB played on tropes, however those tropes were infused with real world ideas and/or cultures. The people who designed the forces/models/background at the time were fans of history and world mythology, and it showed in the game. One could look at say The Beastmen, and see the influence of fairytales, and the Germanic way of war that was encountered by the Romans (Gav Thorpe who wrote their army book even went as far to say such in an old White Dwarf). So yes, it may have had tropes... bit those tropes where infused with things that were very real.

Age of Sigmar, has little to any of that real world influence. The only one that comes to mind are the Daughters of Khaine, they have a lot of Greek Mythology in there.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/15 15:31:00


The objective of the game is to win. The point of the game is to have fun. The two should never be confused. 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 Galas wrote:
TBH Warhammer has spent more time being over the top nonsense than realistic grittyness.


I mean. 1-4 editions and 8th and AoS vs basically 5th-7th.

Thats something I always find funny when 5th-7th fans of WFB call AoS all kind of names when you have the oldhammer group and fans of 1st-3rd editions having the same opinion about 5th-7th, how GW lost their way, the game changed in something unrecognisable, etc...

Yes, this is all so true.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

 stonehorse wrote:
 Galas wrote:
I'm sorry Stonehorse but thats a ton of made up excuses to put on a pedestal something that has no intrinsic superior value to the new choices that GW made.

And I prefer WFB style to AOS. But I like both good enough.


Ask any historical fan or hardcore fantasy fan from some of the better fantasy universes, about their opinion on WFB and it won't be any better than generic troped-based fantasy.
Theres a ton of nostalgia in your opinion presented as some kind of fact or objetive reality, with very nice words that in the end mean nothing.


I play historical (Late medieval and Napoleonic), so not sure what point you are trying to make there.

Yes WFB played on tropes, however those tropes were infused with real world ideas and/or cultures. The people who designed the forces/models/background at the time were fans of history and world mythology, and it showed in the game. One could look at say The Beastmen, and see the influence of fairytales, and the Germanic way of war that was encountered by the Romans (Gav Thorpe who wrote their army book even went as far to say such in an old White Dwarf). So yes, it may have had tropes... bit those tropes where infused with things that were very real.

Age of Sigmar, has little to any of that real world influence. The only one that comes to mind are the Daughters of Khaine, they have a lot of Greek Mythology in there.


That has nothing to do with Warhammer and everything to do with the fact that Citadel started selling historical miniatures and then started writting a background for those armies. Thats why you have bretonnia, norsca, araby, estalia, tilea, the empire, and they started being basically just historical armies and became more fantastic as time pased. Armies like Araby and Norsca felt on the wayside in favour of more fantastical ones, of course. And if you believe that AoS takes no inspiration from real world you are mistaken basically because everything takes inspiration from the real world and cultures, we don't have anything more to compare too. But I admit is less obvious than mesoamerican lizardmen riding dinosaurs.


And I'll reiterate that I actually prefer WFB to AoS but I always find asisine the ton of excuses than exist for the WFB group to try and present AoS as an inferior product than what it is. I mean, yeah at launch it sucked at every level, fluff and rules. But oh boy how it has changed and improved in just 3 years. Imagine it 5 years down the line. WFB had 30 odd years to improve, become more dept, be refined, etc... and the rhythm that AoS has is MUCH faster than WFB had back on his beginnings (Also because GW is much bigger now but you can understand me)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/15 15:42:12


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in gb
Sword-Bearing Inquisitorial Crusader





When it comes to AoS vs WFB, it’s possible to dislike them both. I do
   
Made in de
Regular Dakkanaut





 Galas wrote:
TBH Warhammer has spent more time being over the top nonsense than realistic grittyness.


I mean. 1-4 editions and 8th and AoS vs basically 5th-7th.

Thats something I always find funny when 5th-7th fans of WFB call AoS all kind of names when you have the oldhammer group and fans of 1st-3rd editions having the same opinion about 5th-7th, how GW lost their way, the game changed in something unrecognisable, etc...



Yup, people tend to see their own "golden times" in Warhammer as representative for the brand as a whole. For me, it's 6th-7th edition and thus I'm not particularly happy with the current design direction of AoS. We just have to keep in mind that all of this is very much subjective.

Check out my 8th Edition Army Builders:

Tau

Dark Eldar

 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






Cronch wrote:
For those of us who have played Warhammer for over 30 years, it is still painful to see something we grew up with being thrown under the bus for the likes of 3 string bow, Eel riding Elves on land, skeletons that are built like a brick excrement house and have a bone nose... Etc.

Speak for yourself.
Agreed.

Consider; Games Workshop rules not so much games but as toolboxes for players to craft an experience from, and open/narrative/matched play just examples of how things can be put together. 
   
Made in us
Near Golden Daemon Caliber





Affton, MO. USA

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Cronch wrote:
For those of us who have played Warhammer for over 30 years, it is still painful to see something we grew up with being thrown under the bus for the likes of 3 string bow, Eel riding Elves on land, skeletons that are built like a brick excrement house and have a bone nose... Etc.

Speak for yourself.
Agreed.

Getting back into its after leaving in 5th edition. I like the oldschool stuff, but so many new models have great nostalgic vibes. Plus the details possible now are so much better than the old plastics.

LOL, Theo your mind is an amazing place, never change.-camkierhi 9/19/13
I cant believe theo is right.. damn. -comradepanda 9/26/13
None of the strange ideas we had about you involved your sexual orientation..........-Monkeytroll 12/10/13

I'd put you on ignore for that comment, if I could...Alpharius 2/11/14 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka




I find Sigmar odd. The models are always either eh or really good or really bad for me. There's never anything that's just good or just bad.

tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam  
   
Made in de
Battlefield Tourist






Nuremberg

The have some really great looking stuff, and then some pretty gonzo stuff. Seems like there is a market for both types.

   
Made in gb
Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






UK

Cronch wrote:
For those of us who have played Warhammer for over 30 years, it is still painful to see something we grew up with being thrown under the bus for the likes of 3 string bow, Eel riding Elves on land, skeletons that are built like a brick excrement house and have a bone nose... Etc.

Speak for yourself.


Agreed - I have played every edition and still enjoy the lore of both the Old World and the Mortal Realms

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in us
Latest Wrack in the Pits




Boston, MA

 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
When it comes to AoS vs WFB, it’s possible to dislike them both. I do


Without any sort of snark, I am genuinely interested in your reasons for posting in AoS threads, if that is the case.

Kabal of the Slit Throat ~2000pts
Elect of the Plaguefather 4500pts

 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Carlovonsexron wrote:
Dread Master wrote:
the qualities of the mountain are distinctly masculine.


Ever heard of 'Grand Teton' and the Teton mountain in the US west? Ever looked up the meaning of them name? Mountains aren't entirely masculine or feminine...


I was speaking about the qualities that define mountains. In hermetic philosophy, they are masculine qualities.
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






Dread Master wrote:

I was speaking about the qualities that define mountains. In hermetic philosophy, they are masculine qualities.

JFC, stop pushing this inane gendered bs on inanimate geographical objects! If a mountain had a pink bow on it could it then be a girl mountain?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/15 19:12:11


Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in gb
Sword-Bearing Inquisitorial Crusader





 eohall wrote:
 MonkeyBallistic wrote:
When it comes to AoS vs WFB, it’s possible to dislike them both. I do


Without any sort of snark, I am genuinely interested in your reasons for posting in AoS threads, if that is the case.


That’s a fair question. I’ll give you an honest answer.

I’ve genuinely tried to like AoS, bought both big starter sets and a couple of Battletomes, but the lore just leaves me cold and the game doesn’t appeal. I do however like some of the models. I’m always on the lookout for interesting minis and bits that I can use to make 40k minis, so I take an interest in all of GW’s model releases, regardless of the game they’re for.
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






 Theophony wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Cronch wrote:
For those of us who have played Warhammer for over 30 years, it is still painful to see something we grew up with being thrown under the bus for the likes of 3 string bow, Eel riding Elves on land, skeletons that are built like a brick excrement house and have a bone nose... Etc.

Speak for yourself.
Agreed.

Getting back into its after leaving in 5th edition. I like the oldschool stuff, but so many new models have great nostalgic vibes. Plus the details possible now are so much better than the old plastics.
Agreed again!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Crimson wrote:
Dread Master wrote:

I was speaking about the qualities that define mountains. In hermetic philosophy, they are masculine qualities.

JFC, stop pushing this inane gendered bs on inanimate geographical objects! If a mountain had a pink bow on it could it then be a girl mountain?

Pink was a masculine color at one time, and mountains are very old, so I'm pretty sure that would make it a male mountain.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/15 19:33:24


Consider; Games Workshop rules not so much games but as toolboxes for players to craft an experience from, and open/narrative/matched play just examples of how things can be put together. 
   
Made in ie
Dakka Veteran




Ireland

 Galas wrote:
And if you believe that AoS takes no inspiration from real world you are mistaken basically because everything takes inspiration from the real world and cultures, we don't have anything more to compare too.


That isn't what I meant, and you know it isn't.

Bretonnian - French Civilary, Arthurian folklore.
Chaos Dwarves - Assyrian, Babylonian.
Empire - Holy Roman Empire, Leonardo DiVinci's sketches.
Ogre Kingdoms - palaeolithic, Mongolian.

Etc.

That real world recognition and inspiration is missing from Age of Sigmar. I look at the Kharadron Overlords, and it leaves me cold. The old WFB races were a way to hook people into real life history, for a lot of people it was the spring board that got them into history. I used to work for GW, and a lot of the kids asked about the inspiration from the races. I really can't see that being possible with Age of Sigmar... GW have deliberately designed it so that it is a unique IP and not easy to replicate or reproduce to stop third parties... before anyone who want to play Empire or Bretonnians had a wealth of historical kits to choose from.

The objective of the game is to win. The point of the game is to have fun. The two should never be confused. 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord






They are more subtle and less 'X race wearing Y culture' which is also something many people wanted. I love that they have created unique aesthetics for different races instead of simply copying real-world ones. It is much more difficult and -to me- the effort really pays off with armies that look better.

Consider; Games Workshop rules not so much games but as toolboxes for players to craft an experience from, and open/narrative/matched play just examples of how things can be put together. 
   
Made in fi
Courageous Space Marine Captain






 stonehorse wrote:
 Galas wrote:
And if you believe that AoS takes no inspiration from real world you are mistaken basically because everything takes inspiration from the real world and cultures, we don't have anything more to compare too.


That isn't what I meant, and you know it isn't.

Bretonnian - French Civilary, Arthurian folklore.
Chaos Dwarves - Assyrian, Babylonian.
Empire - Holy Roman Empire, Leonardo DiVinci's sketches.
Ogre Kingdoms - palaeolithic, Mongolian.

Etc.

That real world recognition and inspiration is missing from Age of Sigmar. I look at the Kharadron Overlords, and it leaves me cold. The old WFB races were a way to hook people into real life history, for a lot of people it was the spring board that got them into history. I used to work for GW, and a lot of the kids asked about the inspiration from the races. I really can't see that being possible with Age of Sigmar... GW have deliberately designed it so that it is a unique IP and not easy to replicate or reproduce to stop third parties... before anyone who want to play Empire or Bretonnians had a wealth of historical kits to choose from.


So you prefer lazy copypaste? I'm pretty done with that type of fantasy cultures, unless the setting is explicitly some sort of parallel/weird history one. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the Empire with their crazy landsknecht couture, but you could combine that with some other cultural influences and fantasy elements to create something even more unique. Creating interesting fantasy civilisations with their own style and material culture is really difficult, and I appreciate that GW is doing that now. And it still requires taking inspiration from real world, it just is more subtle. For example the Lumineth seem to blend the ancient Greek and Chinese influences with fantasy elements.

Only the insane have strength enough to prosper. Only those who prosper may truly judge what is sane. 
   
Made in us
Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos






 NinthMusketeer wrote:
They are more subtle and less 'X race wearing Y culture' which is also something many people wanted. I love that they have created unique aesthetics for different races instead of simply copying real-world ones. It is much more difficult and -to me- the effort really pays off with armies that look better.


This. In WFB, the inspiration came in the form of "The Empire is literally just the HRE with griffins and" In AoS, the inspiration is in the form of "Idoneth Deepkin are a Japanese woodblock painting come to life."

2000 Khorne Bloodbound (Skullfiend Tribe- Aqshy)
1000 Tzeentch Arcanites (Pyrofane Cult - Hysh) in progress
2000 Slaves to Darkness (Ravagers)
 
   
 
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