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Spoletta wrote:
A counter-miracle dice for CWE would be cool, I agree. Don't forget though that we are talking about 7-8 dices affected per game. It will be strong and flavorful but if the aim is to somehow protect the T3 1W troops... look elsewhere, this is not what you are looking for.

I actually wasn't thinking that the Fate dice alone would be the be all and end all of Eldar defensive measures. They would still have the "normal" psychic powers that boost or re-roll. A dodge save is a mechanic I prefer over FnP saves since I see Eldar dodging a shot or blow entirely rather than "tanking" it, even partially. Though even then for Eldar infantry, I don't think that is enough to dodge the kind of bullet rain or rain of melee blows that is present nowadays.

Wraith infantries will need something fierce in terms of durability, but everything else is already kind of protected due to the decent mobility.

Only slow models really require defensive rules and profiles. Fast models have been doing fine without it.

Spoletta wrote:
Wraith infantries will need something fierce in terms of durability, but everything else is already kind of protected due to the decent mobility.

Only slow models really require defensive rules and profiles. Fast models have been doing fine without it.

There is no speed as defense mechanic, especially not now with the cap on to-hit modifiers. Sure they could lift that cap for Eldar or vary it so that the cap was higher and based on self-inflicted modifier vs. opponent inflicted, but that sort of creates the same situation as before the cap, when people complained about impossible to-hits for low BS models.

In the current version of the game, defense through speed is one of the things represented by an invul- this is why wyches get it, because they dodge.

As for "Many other ways to mess with an opponents die rolls," could you please point me to one ability that makes an opponent AUTOMATICALLY FAIL a roll? Because that's what you're talking about here.

Not a modifier. Not a trans human 1-3 fails. Not "I get a chance to make you fail." This is a case where these dice are only used to make enemy rolls fail, and there is no counter play.

It's also worth mentioning that it's possible for this ability to the eldar player absolutely no good whatsoever if they roll poorly. So the risk of ruining the game for the opponent doesn't even always result increased enjoyment for the eldar player.

Now admittedly, I don't have as much of a problem with the suggestion as some do, but I certainly see where they are coming from. And because of that, I think it's a better idea to look for other solutions.

I am not personally a fan or replacing a person's save with a dice. It would be better for liek some kind of bypassing of a save then a "replace" mechanic. autofail is "ok this farseer grants me once per turn where after the wounds are rolled the wounds become mortal wounds" mechanically the same but not as "feel badsies"

some of my least favorite times in 40k were things like in 7th psychic powers taking over other units and making them fire on friendly targets. In 5th it was quite annoying facing necrons where I once played a game with my orks. They kept making my own units fight themselves and my own warboss once he got into combat with a necron lord punched himself in the face to death without scratching the lord he worked to get into combat with. After that point i just stopped playing against necrons in friendly games, only in tournaments

PenitentJake wrote:
In the current version of the game, defense through speed is one of the things represented by an invul- this is why wyches get it, because they dodge.

As for "Many other ways to mess with an opponents die rolls," could you please point me to one ability that makes an opponent AUTOMATICALLY FAIL a roll? Because that's what you're talking about here.

Not a modifier. Not a trans human 1-3 fails. Not "I get a chance to make you fail." This is a case where these dice are only used to make enemy rolls fail, and there is no counter play.

It's also worth mentioning that it's possible for this ability to the eldar player absolutely no good whatsoever if they roll poorly. So the risk of ruining the game for the opponent doesn't even always result increased enjoyment for the eldar player.

Now admittedly, I don't have as much of a problem with the suggestion as some do, but I certainly see where they are coming from. And because of that, I think it's a better idea to look for other solutions.

Any ability that bypasses a save is the same as forcing the opponent to auto-failing the roll. There are already a few abilities or items out there that can bypass invulnerable saves. Modifying an armor save out of existence is also the same as making them auto-fail their armor save roll. All those inflict wounds and end attack sequence before saves is bypassing the save and auto-failing them. All of them result in 100% failure of the save to prevent damage.

There is counterplay in the same way that there is against Miracle dice. I don't know how many times does this need to be repeated. You can't get rid of them if you are the opponent, so you have to not make plans around single or small volume rolls if you know they have those dice up their sleeve. The supply of dice is not meant to be able to keep up with demand so decisions have to be made on how to ration them out.

The same situation of poor Miracle dice rolling can be a problem as well, but the SoB players live with it. It is also somewhat mitigated by their various rules exchanging or re-rolling Miracle dice. That reduces the variability a little but even so, they live with it and so do the opponents so I don't see why some variability in the value of any Fate dice should not have to be similarly lived with, along with a few mitigation options, perhaps by using a psychic power to generate more dice or re-roll existing ones.

Iracundus wrote:
Again we have gone on about this already. That is equivalent to someone with really good luck rolling 6's all the time for their Miracle dice. That would allow for multiple auto 6++ saves, which could be viewed as hard nope to opponent attacks. Forcing complete negation of damage due to a 6++ is the same as forcing a 1 on a to-hit roll for someone with BS 2+ (for purposes of this example, the firer has nothing that triggers on a 1).

If they roll some good miracle dice and I know that they can immediately tank some hits I put on them, I need to plan around that and perhaps put more firepower onto the target than the dice pool can handle.

Just being straight up 'Nope'd' on what I roll, that's a very different feeling.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
Again we have gone on about this already. That is equivalent to someone with really good luck rolling 6's all the time for their Miracle dice. That would allow for multiple auto 6++ saves, which could be viewed as hard nope to opponent attacks. Forcing complete negation of damage due to a 6++ is the same as forcing a 1 on a to-hit roll for someone with BS 2+ (for purposes of this example, the firer has nothing that triggers on a 1).

If they roll some good miracle dice and I know that they can immediately tank some hits I put on them, I need to plan around that and perhaps put more firepower onto the target than the dice pool can handle.

Just being straight up 'Nope'd' on what I roll, that's a very different feeling.

It's the exact same. Someone rolls a good series of Fate dice for example? Then you know have to make plans to put more firepower onto the target than the dice pool can handle as you know some of those will be failed. Same as knowing the SoB player can definitely make a good number of 6++ saves. No difference in the damage negated and the exact same "nope" result of certainty in stopping the damage cold as in the SoB good roller example. Just because one might occur at the save stage while another might occur at the to-hit or to-wound does not make a difference, again assuming no special rules of any triggered effects.

You keep saying they're the exact same, but it's been pointed out that they're not.
Even just mechanically thinking, needing a 6 to pass a 6++ is less likely than having a 1, 2, or even 3 needed to stop a wound roll, since 3+ or even 4+ is fairly common when targeting tanks/monsters with AT weapons.
On top of that, you introduce the possibility to instagib enemy plasma/similar weapons by forcing them to roll a 1. The only counterplay would be to simply forgo the use of such weapons which would be pretty gakky.

Easily mitigated. You can force one hit to become a miss.

Even if your opponent is a 2+ to hit, it’s just a miss, not a 1.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
You keep saying they're the exact same, but it's been pointed out that they're not.
Even just mechanically thinking, needing a 6 to pass a 6++ is less likely than having a 1, 2, or even 3 needed to stop a wound roll, since 3+ or even 4+ is fairly common when targeting tanks/monsters with AT weapons.
On top of that, you introduce the possibility to instagib enemy plasma/similar weapons by forcing them to roll a 1. The only counterplay would be to simply forgo the use of such weapons which would be pretty gakky.

Except they are the same as has been repeatedly shown by the original bright lance/lascannon example that had no special rules in play.

Again the Fate dice as I proposed mirror the Miracle dice. Miracle dice of 4-6 can force a success on those same 4+ to-wound rolls that you complain could be negated on a 1-3 of a Fate die, so I don't see any difference in one being more powerful than the other as both convert 50% to100%. But even that is beside the main point: the idea for the Fate dice was for more defensive rather than offensive in a mirror of the Miracle dice. Sure, the Fate dice can stop incoming attacks more, but they cannot affect your own attack rolls or to-wound rolls. So yes, they are better at different things than each other. Fate is better for stopping the damage which is what I think Eldar would care more about whereas Miracle dice are more about punishing enemies of the Emperor and self-sacrificing. Self-preservation is a secondary concern hence why the Acts of Faith have more opportunities to force results to hit, wound, and damage.

Miracle dice have the ability to trigger effects as well. Anything that triggers on a 6 for example can be triggered if you have a 6 on a Miracle die. Extra hits, triggering MW, etc...

All I see are double standards. When Miracle dice do it, it's fine. Suddenly when Fate dice do the same, or some mirror of the same, suddenly there is a wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Iracundus wrote:

The same situation of poor Miracle dice rolling can be a problem as well, but the SoB players live with it.

This isn't exactly true either. As I pointed out in an earlier post, 3/6 Orders have MD mitigation as an Order trait; their are two pieces of equipment that offer MD mitigation to many sisters units; there are WL traits, Relics, and strats that offer MD mitigation. Their are alternate uses for MD via officer upgrades. Finally, there are several units with MD mitigation built into their datacards.

Miracle dice work for sisters because of the infrastructure built into the codex to support them.

Your suggestions suffers tremendously from this fact: adding this infrastructure to make the ability worthwhile for the eldar player increases the feel-bad frustration for their opponent. If you use it without any additional mitigating factors, it won't do enough for the eldar; if you add any mitigating factors, it becomes more oppressive to opponents. It's a lose/ lose situation.

To be clear: I don't object as hard as some people do; I might actually try an experiment or two to see what it actually feels like in practice. But for all the reasons I've mentioned, and for reasons others have mentioned, I just think there are better solutions available.

Iracundus wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Wraith infantries will need something fierce in terms of durability, but everything else is already kind of protected due to the decent mobility.

Only slow models really require defensive rules and profiles. Fast models have been doing fine without it.

There is no speed as defense mechanic, especially not now with the cap on to-hit modifiers. Sure they could lift that cap for Eldar or vary it so that the cap was higher and based on self-inflicted modifier vs. opponent inflicted, but that sort of creates the same situation as before the cap, when people complained about impossible to-hits for low BS models.

That's not what I meant.
Speed is a defense mechanic because it is, not because you couple it with additional rules like to hit modifiers.

An high Movement stat WILL keep you safe, simply due to how the game works.

You're describing two things which are clearly different (insta-killing the opponent's plasma gun vs getting an exploding AP or something) and claiming people are unreasonable for pointing that out.

You have ignored and denied any reference to the psychology of wargames.

You've argued that it's identical to throwing a 6 at a 6++, then respond with "well yeah it's meant to be better" when pointed out that swapping enemy dice is more effective than that.

I don't think there's much point in continuing this if you're just going to change the subject like that.

PenitentJake wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

The same situation of poor Miracle dice rolling can be a problem as well, but the SoB players live with it.

This isn't exactly true either. As I pointed out in an earlier post, 3/6 Orders have MD mitigation as an Order trait; their are two pieces of equipment that offer MD mitigation to many sisters units; there are WL traits, Relics, and strats that offer MD mitigation. Their are alternate uses for MD via officer upgrades. Finally, there are several units with MD mitigation built into their datacards.

Miracle dice work for sisters because of the infrastructure built into the codex to support them.

Your suggestions suffers tremendously from this fact: adding this infrastructure to make the ability worthwhile for the eldar player increases the feel-bad frustration for their opponent. If you use it without any additional mitigating factors, it won't do enough for the eldar; if you add any mitigating factors, it becomes more oppressive to opponents. It's a lose/ lose situation.

To be clear: I don't object as hard as some people do; I might actually try an experiment or two to see what it actually feels like in practice. But for all the reasons I've mentioned, and for reasons others have mentioned, I just think there are better solutions available.

Of course there would be mitigation stuff, but we were discussing the basic idea. For example, I could easily see Ulthwe having additional Fate dice or strategems around re-rolling Fate dice. The SoB have Strategems that consume Miracle dice, and I could see Eldar equivalents consuming Fate dice, for example like the Agents of Vect strategem, cancelling out an enemy strategem or perhaps a lesser effect of raising the cost in cp. Yes it should be expensive, on par with the Divine Intervention SoB strategem. Maybe the Alaitoc stratagem could be like the old Alaitoc Pathfinder table effect of a single free snipe with Pathfinder sniper rifles at an enemy unit at the cost of expending Fate die. Lots of potential ideas to tempt the Eldar player to consume Fate dice, in the same way the SoB player is offered options to use their Miracle dice in alternative ways.

Just as with the SoB, the dice have to be numerous enough to make a significant effect and be worthwhile but not so numerous that they remove all thinking, choices, or actual normal gameplay.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
You're describing two things which are clearly different (insta-killing the opponent's plasma gun vs getting an exploding AP or something) and claiming people are unreasonable for pointing that out.

You have ignored and denied any reference to the psychology of wargames.

You've argued that it's identical to throwing a 6 at a 6++, then respond with "well yeah it's meant to be better" when pointed out that swapping enemy dice is more effective than that.

I don't think there's much point in continuing this if you're just going to change the subject like that.

An exploding plasma gun is inflicting basically MW. Triggering MW with Miracle dice is no different. The SoB have multiple avenues to trigger MW on 6's from Miracle dice. I see that as equivalent.

I haven't ignored the psychology. I am quite aware of it. I am just saying it is misleading and people are seeing differences where there are none precisely because of psychology. That is one of the reasons why behavioral psychology is applied to things like stock markets so people can hopefully see through and ignore the cognitive biases that lead to bad decision making. Experiments have shown people make errors or more risky decisions in certain situations because their judgment is skewed, such as perceiving differences in situations when there are none.

You seem to have missed the point entirely. I didn't say it's identical to throwing a 6 at a 6++ if you are talking about the defensive aspects. I am saying yes, the Fate dice would be better at defense. The Miracle dice at offense. Fate dice can modify the enemy's to-hit, to-wound, and damage to protect the Eldar. Miracle dice can modify one's own to-hits, to-wounds, and damage to inflict damage. Miracle dice can affect one's own save for defense. Fate dice can affect the opponent's save for offense. They are mirrors of each other.

On the idea of making eldar faster I would love personally to see a return of move shoot move as a mechanic or somethign like even if not charging units may move 1D6 inches in the assault phase

 G00fySmiley wrote:
On the idea of making eldar faster I would love personally to see a return of move shoot move as a mechanic or somethign like even if not charging units may move 1D6 inches in the assault phase

People also complained mightily about the move shoot move mechanic. Eldar would move out of cover, shoot, and scoot back into cover/out of LOS entirely with the enemy not being able to respond at all due to IGOUGO turn sequencing. Thematic I agree though.

Reading this thread sorta reads as a Eldar can’t get anything cool, so give em some invon saves and lots of damage.

Honestly I just think the game has been pushed to the point you cannot really do much.

Spoletta wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Wraith infantries will need something fierce in terms of durability, but everything else is already kind of protected due to the decent mobility.

Only slow models really require defensive rules and profiles. Fast models have been doing fine without it.

There is no speed as defense mechanic, especially not now with the cap on to-hit modifiers. Sure they could lift that cap for Eldar or vary it so that the cap was higher and based on self-inflicted modifier vs. opponent inflicted, but that sort of creates the same situation as before the cap, when people complained about impossible to-hits for low BS models.

That's not what I meant.
Speed is a defense mechanic because it is, not because you couple it with additional rules like to hit modifiers.

An high Movement stat WILL keep you safe, simply due to how the game works.

I don't see how that's true. To hold objectives, you need to be in an area. Your high movement stat will not keep your opponents from targeting that unit.

Also, Eldar movement stats aren't even that high. Yeah, the transports and bikes are fast, but infantry get +1M versus Marines, surely you're not suggesting that makes a difference. I agree with you, things like the vehicles and Shining Spears are in better shape than the rest of the army (though I think even the vehicles have been power-crept on), but I don't know that it's because their high movement is keeping them alive.

Wave Serpents and other Eldar skimmers are not that fast, once you factor in the size of the model.
Placing that model can shave off a few inches, with scenery and the need to stay 1" from all enemy models.
Over open ground they're fast, but in most games, they're too unwieldy to go far at once.

Iracundus wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
On the idea of making eldar faster I would love personally to see a return of move shoot move as a mechanic or somethign like even if not charging units may move 1D6 inches in the assault phase

People also complained mightily about the move shoot move mechanic. Eldar would move out of cover, shoot, and scoot back into cover/out of LOS entirely with the enemy not being able to respond at all due to IGOUGO turn sequencing. Thematic I agree though.

I think in 6th/7th it was stronger than it would be now. with how many objectives and secondaries work now pure gunline armies are not great, you need mobility. I can see sometimes eldar players managing to break LOS and making it impossible to hit them back, but more often that not it seems more likely to force the opponent to move in reaction to the move shoot move which may further expose that unit making a hard choice, be exposed but shoot back, stay put and shoot other things or move to be out of range or sight themselves next round if possible. I def don't want to go back to 6th (i believe it was 6th anyway) with tau battlesuits jumping on terrain, blowing off 1/4 of the opponent and then jumping back out of LOS on the other side of the table where you cannot even interact with them. to be fair also terrain back then was often planet bowling ball with 4 pieces of stuff on the board and very little guidance beyond cover save in terrain and true los. can't say how many times my battlewagons got blown up because an opponent could see a big shoota or part of the wagon if you look through a window on the front of the building through a window on the back side of the building so 3 broadsides fire rail rifles into it

In table top games it tends to be less about movement and more about threat range.

There are way to many units with massive threat ranges for movement to be a good defence with the way the game is now, and I think tau will be forced to push that even further with a update. :(

 G00fySmiley wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
On the idea of making eldar faster I would love personally to see a return of move shoot move as a mechanic or somethign like even if not charging units may move 1D6 inches in the assault phase

People also complained mightily about the move shoot move mechanic. Eldar would move out of cover, shoot, and scoot back into cover/out of LOS entirely with the enemy not being able to respond at all due to IGOUGO turn sequencing. Thematic I agree though.

I think in 6th/7th it was stronger than it would be now. with how many objectives and secondaries work now pure gunline armies are not great, you need mobility. I can see sometimes eldar players managing to break LOS and making it impossible to hit them back, but more often that not it seems more likely to force the opponent to move in reaction to the move shoot move which may further expose that unit making a hard choice, be exposed but shoot back, stay put and shoot other things or move to be out of range or sight themselves next round if possible. I def don't want to go back to 6th (i believe it was 6th anyway) with tau battlesuits jumping on terrain, blowing off 1/4 of the opponent and then jumping back out of LOS on the other side of the table where you cannot even interact with them. to be fair also terrain back then was often planet bowling ball with 4 pieces of stuff on the board and very little guidance beyond cover save in terrain and true los. can't say how many times my battlewagons got blown up because an opponent could see a big shoota or part of the wagon if you look through a window on the front of the building through a window on the back side of the building so 3 broadsides fire rail rifles into it

The problem with reliance on this kind of move shoot move without further mechanics as defense is it was too reliant on terrain to break LOS. The Eldar as a faction need to have some reasonable degree of survivability even on otherwise limited terrain tables given the potential threat range of units and weapons now. Otherwise it would ironically make Eldar play opposite to how they are portrayed. Instead they would be huddling behind what limited cover/terrain there is instead of zooming around.

TBH, there is really no direct way to get around the T3 W1 mediocre save of Eldar. They are fragile and should retain that ability. Technology and psychics need to make the difference.
I still feel that warlocks should be an inherent upgrade to Guardians, and their powers should either make that unit more offensive or defensive. I've mentioned this far earlier in the thread but I'd like to see guardian squads (including windriders) be led by warlocks who can choose between powers that increase durability or offensive capability.
For example, a "battle" warlock knows each of the following powers..
Celestial Shield..grants his unit 4++ until next psychic phase.
Hail of Doom...increase range of shuricats by 6" and become Ap-1 until next psychic phase.
etc...
each power buffs his/her unit only.

Then you can have other warlocks be in conclaves (no more individual warlocks). These warlocks can cast Runes of battle on other units.

Wraith infantry are fine as is. T6 with 3W and 3+ save is plenty durable.

Aspects need to be super specialized in their role, and let's be honest, most need a transport to be protected.
I certainly feel that it's in the Aspect Warriors that GW should apply the most thought regarding rules. This is especially true if they plan to produce more plastic aspects (which I would be willing to bet hard cash on them doing...per the short stories that came out in PA)

 bullyboy wrote:
TBH, there is really no direct way to get around the T3 W1 mediocre save of Eldar. They are fragile and should retain that ability. Technology and psychics need to make the difference.
I still feel that warlocks should be an inherent upgrade to Guardians, and their powers should either make that unit more offensive or defensive. I've mentioned this far earlier in the thread but I'd like to see guardian squads (including windriders) be led by warlocks who can choose between powers that increase durability or offensive capability.
For example, a "battle" warlock knows each of the following powers..
Celestial Shield..grants his unit 4++ until next psychic phase.
Hail of Doom...increase range of shuricats by 6" and become Ap-1 until next psychic phase.
etc...
each power buffs his/her unit only.

I think I'm fine with that if you remove or otherwise modify the "one cast of this power per turn" rule. Honestly, that's one of my big gripes with current Eldar.

Then you can have other warlocks be in conclaves (no more individual warlocks). These warlocks can cast Runes of battle on other units.

Wraith infantry are fine as is. T6 with 3W and 3+ save is plenty durable.

I like this treatment of Warlocks, especially since GW decided to give them 2 wounds, which has always been incredibly goofy to me in the multi-wound character world (and why does a Farseer get 5? They should probably be 3/Warlock, 4/Farseer)

I don't agree with you on Wraiths. Without added powers (again, that you only get 1 of), they die very easily in this world of cheap and powerful anti-tank and where lists rely on tough, multi-wound characters to hold objectives. I'd give them all a 2+ base.

Aspects need to be super specialized in their role, and let's be honest, most need a transport to be protected.
I certainly feel that it's in the Aspect Warriors that GW should apply the most thought regarding rules. This is especially true if they plan to produce more plastic aspects (which I would be willing to bet hard cash on them doing...per the short stories that came out in PA)

Those exarch powers are pretty hit and miss though. GW gave them some thought but some of those rules are just goofy. Yeah, maybe you can call them fluffy but there was clearly next to no attempts at balance, and at a point where our Aspect Warriors are some of our worst units, I wish GW gave it a little more effort.

 bullyboy wrote:
TBH, there is really no direct way to get around the T3 W1 mediocre save of Eldar. They are fragile and should retain that ability. Technology and psychics need to make the difference.
I still feel that warlocks should be an inherent upgrade to Guardians, and their powers should either make that unit more offensive or defensive. I've mentioned this far earlier in the thread but I'd like to see guardian squads (including windriders) be led by warlocks who can choose between powers that increase durability or offensive capability.
For example, a "battle" warlock knows each of the following powers..
Celestial Shield..grants his unit 4++ until next psychic phase.
Hail of Doom...increase range of shuricats by 6" and become Ap-1 until next psychic phase.
etc...
each power buffs his/her unit only.

Then you can have other warlocks be in conclaves (no more individual warlocks). These warlocks can cast Runes of battle on other units.

Wraith infantry are fine as is. T6 with 3W and 3+ save is plenty durable.

Aspects need to be super specialized in their role, and let's be honest, most need a transport to be protected.
I certainly feel that it's in the Aspect Warriors that GW should apply the most thought regarding rules. This is especially true if they plan to produce more plastic aspects (which I would be willing to bet hard cash on them doing...per the short stories that came out in PA)

A single 4++ for T3 W1 doesn't really cut it, let alone making it a psychic power so in effect it is a conditional 4++, and then so many armies now have various anti-psyker abilities or effects. Eldar should not be dependent on Warlock babysitting to function. Warlocks should be augmenting, sure, but whatever the unit it should still have some function it can perform without mandating a Warlock being present.

Iracundus wrote:


A single 4++ for T3 W1 doesn't really cut it, let alone making it a psychic power so in effect it is a conditional 4++, and then so many armies now have various anti-psyker abilities or effects. Eldar should not be dependent on Warlock babysitting to function. Warlocks should be augmenting, sure, but whatever the unit it should still have some function it can perform without mandating a Warlock being present.

Well, I don't know that I'd want Guardians to be mind-bendingly tough to begin with. A 4++ on a big blob of 20 is not bad, especially if you expend some more resources to buff them and you're not limited to only upgrading 1 unit that way. Then again, I don't think it's very fluffy for Eldar (outside of Ulthwe I guess) to be fielding units of 20 Guardians, so I do get where you're coming from.

I think it's fair, we just need to accept that Eldar are a horde army.

A 4++ for T3 W1 doesn't really cut it?

Tell that to sisters of battle.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

Iracundus wrote:


A single 4++ for T3 W1 doesn't really cut it, let alone making it a psychic power so in effect it is a conditional 4++, and then so many armies now have various anti-psyker abilities or effects. Eldar should not be dependent on Warlock babysitting to function. Warlocks should be augmenting, sure, but whatever the unit it should still have some function it can perform without mandating a Warlock being present.

Well, I don't know that I'd want Guardians to be mind-bendingly tough to begin with. A 4++ on a big blob of 20 is not bad, especially if you expend some more resources to buff them and you're not limited to only upgrading 1 unit that way. Then again, I don't think it's very fluffy for Eldar (outside of Ulthwe I guess) to be fielding units of 20 Guardians, so I do get where you're coming from.

Other Craftworlds do field formations of Guardians. They just aren't a permanent standing army like Ulthwe's. Epic 2nd edition had Guardian Defender Hosts and they were composed of Guardians. In the same way, Saim-hann is well known for its Wild Riders and Wind Rider Hosts but other Craftworlds also field Wind Rider Hosts.

Anyway, the point is other armies have multiple layers of defenses or simply many bodies. Eldar with T3 and W1 only really have their save and any to-hit penalties. That's the mechanics problem because that single layer of save is not enough to keep them alive. Guardian troops are also currently lacking in much of a role. In a GEQ environment maybe, but in an MEQ environment they are useless and at most just ablative Wounds, which is not a fluffy way to go about Eldar.